PSNI rejects British Army version of 1988 shooting

stovelid

Hagar wrote: »

If there is sufficient evidence to convict the soldier in court it should be done. Then he should be sentenced for the crime. Then he should be pardoned under the terms of the GFA just the same as all the other people convicted of crimes.

+1 even if it is very difficult to stomach.

Ideally with at least some time served, and no reentry to the army.

dlofnep wrote: »

Give me one instance where a member of any Republican group shot a civilian in a cold and calculated manner, without cause and who were not members of the British defense forces and I will have no qualms whatsoever condemning them.

LOL at the IRA clause: plenty of people were blown up, shot, and beaten to death for a cause. Trouble is, the victims inconveniently didn't subscribe to it.

Please don't insult people's intelligence by tempting them to dredge up the names of IRA or INLA victims other than Brits and Loyalists.

You will never acknowledge that blowing up British people not directly related to your oppression; shooting children like Bernard Teggart, or blowing up Patsy Gillespie were as repugnant as acts as the murder of Aidan McAnespie.

madden1

Sand wrote: »

Ive noted the case should be investigated, the soldier charged and prosecuted if theres enough evidence to convict. I only noted the possibility of electing him to Stormont as an alternative, but I believe that option is only open for the Provos.

Goodness me Sand
And where would we find a court to (convict and make it stick) one of her majesty best, In the very few cases where brits were found guilty of murdering children in Ireland, Martin Peake, & Karen Reilly what outcome did we have "yes" you've guessed it promotion as in the case of the Para Lee Clegg after a short spell in the nick with all the privileges of a british Hero and a lot of pressure from the powers that be that "shor it was only Irish kids that was murdered" and he was wrongly jailed,the by now Sergeant Lee Clegg was released and home to a heroes welcome and is now in Afghanistan doing what he does best.

And you Sand think that it is possible to have a brit soldier convicted of murdering people and jailed in the six county's I think "your away with the fairies"

dlofnep

Sand wrote: »

Youd vote for them more likely I think. Have you ever considered what Gerry Adams was doing in the 70s and 80s? To earn such command over the Provos? In a movement that positively despised and rejected anything other than militant struggle? He wasnt a peace activist, thats for sure. Has he been any more honest than the soldier?

Gerry Adams was a political activist in the 70's. His political swing over the PIRA was not because he was an active volunteer, but because he carried weight on a political ground. For a guy who assumes to be in the know, you don't know very much about Gerry Adams.

I support Sinn Féin because I believe in their policies. No more, no less.

Sand wrote: »

Would you think it despicable if the British Army captured a Provo, and having subdued and taken him prisoner then executed them in cold blood?

Yes I would. I don't believe the British army have a rightful cause in Ireland in the first place.

Sand wrote: »

Or would you think, fair enough, the Brits probably couldnt be arsed with the paperwork which is understandable?

I've spent the last 5 hours in a pub, and no questions have reached the level of stupidity of this.

Sand wrote: »

But you support the organisation that planned, carried out and celebrated countless deliberate attacks on civillian targets through bombing pubs, shops, resteraunts, commemorations and other public, completely non military targets. Right?

You're going to need to explain what organisation you think it is I support because I answer this question. I support the political party of Sinn Féin. I don't think the fit the description of what you have outlined above.

Sand wrote: »

You get to start the topic, others get to discuss it. If you dont like where the discussion is going [ the double standards Provos apply to victims of the troubles] then....too bad to be honest.

I started the topic. British army soldier kills civilian, covers it up, is forgiven. Or did you purposely miss the last 11 pages of this thread?

dlofnep

stovelid wrote: »

You will never acknowledge that blowing up British people not directly related to your oppression; shooting children like Bernard Teggart, or blowing up Patsy Gillespie were as repugnant as acts as the murder of Aidan McAnespie.

Oh really? I condemn the death of Bernard Teggart. I've no qualms about doing so. Bernard was a child and I'm very aware of the surroundings of his death. I found it to be disgusting.

But it still doesn't change the fact that you've further highlighted my original point. And that is - you're unable to discuss the current topic at hand, which is the murder of a civilian by a British army soldier.

So.. No to bother you or anything.. But any chance of staying on topic? Or are we going to continuously go around in circles where everyone avoids Aidan's death, diverts the attention to the IRA and tries to discuss their atrocities - because the reality of the history of the British army doesn't sit so sweet with them.

Ar aghaidh libh..

stovelid

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh really? I condemn the death of Bernard Teggart. I've no qualms about doing so. Bernard was a child and I'm very aware of the surroundings of his death. I found it to be disgusting.

Quit the semantics. I don't need to pass off a emotive roll-call of murders as politcial discussion. You asked for:

dlofnep wrote: »

Give me one instance where a member of any Republican group shot a civilian in a cold and calculated manner, without cause and who were not members of the British defense forces and I will have no qualms whatsoever condemning them.

I provided same.

dlofnep wrote: »

But it still doesn't change the fact that you've further highlighted my original point. And that is - you're unable to discuss the current topic at hand, which is the murder of a civilian by a British army soldier. So.. No to bother you or anything.. But any chance of staying on topic?

We are discussing the murder of a civilian by the British Army as the overwhelming majority of the posts will attest. Trouble is, you're asking people on a public forum to get back on topic, to wit: your received notion of how the topic should be discussed.

McArmalite

Sand wrote: »

Youd vote for them more likely I think. Have you ever considered what Gerry Adams was doing in the 70s and 80s? To earn such command over the Provos? In a movement that positively despised and rejected anything other than militant struggle? He wasnt a peace activist, thats for sure. Has he been any more honest than the soldier?

Well as far as I'm concerned with your observations, I voted for them and proudly so. Many others obviously think so, they are the largest nationalist party in the six counties, ( on an All Ireland basis, I beleive they would be third behind FF and FG ).

britian and unionism had laid the foundations in the previous 50 years or so with unionist misrule and thuggery, the Provos were the enevitable backlash. Unionism baked it's cake and the IRA forced them to eat it. Adams is a respected politican around the world, weekly he has to turn down invivtaions as an international speaker, and his books are worldwide sellers. Obviously the rest of the world's views on him are quite diferent than yours and unionism's. How many unionist politicans are held in the same esteem outside " Ulstor " ( Ulster in Ulster Scots ) - Paisley for instance.

Sand wrote: »

Would you think it despicable if the British Army captured a Provo, and having subdued and taken him prisoner then executed them in cold blood? Or would you think, fair enough, the Brits probably couldnt be arsed with the paperwork which is understandable?

But your the one in a previous post who thinks it was despicable for republicans to " subdued and taken him prisoner then executed " SAS Corporal Howes and Davies - after Howes and Davies had tried to murder them.

Sand wrote: »

But you support the organisation that planned, carried out and celebrated countless deliberate attacks on civillian targets through bombing pubs, shops, resteraunts, commemorations and other public, completely non military targets. Right?

No, I've never been a supporter of the british forces or their loyalist surrogates - though obviously you are.

Sand wrote: »

You get to start the topic, others get to discuss it. If you dont like where the discussion is going [ the double standards Provos apply to victims of the troubles] then....too bad to be honest.

Sorry, I thought the purpose of any discussion is to discuss the subject of the thread and not drag it off on a tangent ?

dlofnep

stovelid wrote: »

We are discussing the murder of a civilian by the British Army as the overwhelming majority of the posts will attest.

Oh really? The overwhelming majority of the posts have been either sand telling some guy called "Dlop" to move on, or other posters questioning where our sympathies lay when the IRA killed civilians.

stovelid wrote: »

Trouble is, you're asking people on a public forum to get back on topic, to wit: your received notion of how the topic should be discussed.

No, the trouble is - you're unable to do so without diverting attention elsewhere. It is not discussing the topic at hand, but rather widening the scope of the discussion - which in turn, turns into 11 pages of us actually trying to discuss the murder and coverup of a civilian by British troops, but spending 90% discussing the IRA with you.

So as you can see - We've now spent more time arguing amongst ourselves, through no fault of my own - rather than discussing what should be done about this coverup. And if we attempt to get it back on topic (British soldier murders civilian), we're branded as trying to dictate how the thread goes.

djpbarry

McArmalite wrote: »

Adams is a respected politican around the world...

Respected by who I wonder? FARC?

McArmalite wrote: »

How many unionist politicans are held in the same esteem outside " Ulstor " ( Ulster in Ulster Scots ) - Paisley for instance.

David Trimble? He won some sort of prize, didn't he?

djpbarry

dlofnep wrote: »

We've now spent more time arguing amongst ourselves, through no fault of my own - rather than discussing what should be done about this coverup.

Actually, I think pretty much everyone has addressed that point, i.e. the soldier should be punished accordingly if found guilty. I’m not sure what else you’re looking for.

McArmalite

djpbarry wrote: »

Respected by who I wonder? FARC?

:rolleyes: " Adams is a respected politican around the world, weekly he has to turn down invivtaions as an international speaker, and his books are worldwide sellers "

djpbarry wrote: »

David Trimble? He won some sort of prize, didn't he?

Trimble won it along with Hume, on his own Trimble - 'the hero of Drumcree' wouldn't win a teapot.

stovelid

dlofnep wrote: »

So as you can see - We've now spent more time arguing amongst ourselves, through no fault of my own - rather than discussing what should be done about this coverup.

Arguing among ourselves is one of the main activities of a politics forum. If you want to discuss the issue from a completely partisan viewpoint, and exclude other views, then this is the wrong place to do it. Try a republican forum or even your own hosted forum.

Having a hissy fit when people try and widen the scope of the argument on a public forum is as silly as expecting some of the Republican posters here not to offer critique to a thread specifically about justice for IRA victims.

I agree though: it's circuitous at this stage.

djpbarry

McArmalite wrote: »

Adams is a respected politican around the world, weekly he has to turn down invivtaions as an international speaker, and his books are worldwide sellers

That statement is entirely subjective and means very little.

McArmalite wrote: »

Trimble won it along with Hume, on his own Trimble - 'the hero of Drumcree' wouldn't win a teapot.

Noble Prize Scoreboard:

Unionists 1 - 0 Sinn Féin
Trimble '98

dlofnep

djpbarry wrote: »

That statement is entirely subjective and means very little.

Because you say so? Oh right. Must be gospel then.

I think it's safe to say Adams gained alot of worldwide support for the peace-process in Ireland, and adopting a pen is mightier attitude to Irish politics.

djpbarry wrote: »

Noble Prize Scoreboard:

Unionists 1 - 0 Sinn Féin
Trimble '98

And yet, Gandhi never received one.

djpbarry

dlofnep wrote: »

Because you say so? Oh right. Must be gospel then.

"Adams is a respected politician around the world..."

Means nothing. Sarah Palin might be respected by a handful of people in different parts of the world. I could therefore say that "Sarah Palin is a respected politician around the world". Doesn't mean very much though, does it?

"...weekly he has to turn down invitations as an international speaker..."

Invitations from whom? What is an "international speaker"? How do we know he receives these invitations on a regular basis?

"...and his books are worldwide sellers..."

If I sell one book in Ireland and one book in Australia, then technically I could state that my book is a "worldwide seller". Means nothing.

JWAD

McArmalite wrote: »

No, I've never been a supporter of the british forces or their loyalist surrogates - though obviously you are

Never seen you condemn any killings by the other side of the coin. In fact, you would appear to support them by giving every excuse under the sun and at every opportunity attempt to deflect blame with that old favourite of the anonymous internet expert on everything: Moral relativism.

McArmalite

djpbarry wrote: »

That statement is entirely subjective and means very little.
Noble Prize Scoreboard:

Unionists 1 - 0 Sinn Féin
Trimble '98

Since it was won along with Hume, it's only a 1/2 and half scores doesn't win matches.

But sure he was later made Lord Trimble and therefore Gerry and everyone else must be jealous.

McArmalite

JWAD wrote: »

Never seen you condemn any killings by the other side of the coin. In fact, you would appear to support them by giving every excuse under the sun and at every opportunity attempt to deflect blame with that old favourite of the anonymous internet expert on everything: Moral relativism.

Just like yourself.

JWAD

McArmalite wrote: »

Just like yourself.

Bullsh*t. None of these raving scumbags killing for the 'cause' has any of my sympathies or support, be they your lot of hypocritical maniacs that you seem to worship, the other lot of hypocritical maniacs or colluding security forces.
They can all go p*ss up a rope. They do nothing with the consent of the majority of this island behind them as was shown in the referendum supporting compromise in return for peace. And any bugger who breaks that peace or supports the breaking of that peace is not worth the air they breathe.

stovelid

tbh...

TOMASJ

djpbarry wrote: »

Respected by who I wonder? FARC?

David Trimble? He won some sort of prize, didn't he

David "who"

jimmy-jazz

you can thrash this out all night, but the bottom line is, the ira kiled innocent people, the british army killed innocent people. everyone is going to have a different opinion on who was right and who was wrong.
i've spent most of my time in donegal, derry, and belfast. and i know for a fact that most people in the north have had enough. move on, we are relatively peaceful now. why keep bringing up the pain and trouble, to keep it in our heads and prevent progress.

RSF Cill Dara

JWAD wrote: »

Bullsh*t. None of these raving scumbags killing for the 'cause' has any of my sympathies or support, be they your lot of hypocritical maniacs that you seem to worship, the other lot of hypocritical maniacs or colluding security forces.
They can all go p*ss up a rope. They do nothing with the consent of the majority of this island behind them as was shown in the referendum supporting compromise in return for peace. And any bugger who breaks that peace or supports the breaking of that peace is not worth the air they breathe.

scumbags?These are the Irish Soilders who layed down their lives in defence of their country.
No praise did they get, no rewards did they recieve, only hardship and struggle. There names and sacrafice will never fade, they are immortal, they are the bravest of the brave.

Please respect our fallen brothers.

Fratton Fred

RSF Cill Dara wrote: »

scumbags?These are the Irish Soilders who layed down their lives in defence of their country.
No praise did they get, no rewards did they recieve, only hardship and struggle. There names and sacrafice will never fade, they are immortal, they are the bravest of the brave.

Please respect our fallen brothers.

Brilliant

they are a bunch of terrorists FFS.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Brilliant

they are a bunch of terrorists FFS.

No more than the British Army. I'll await for you to tell me how noble and just they are. Then you can wait for me to laugh at you. And we'll continue the cycle for a few pages. It's a slow night at work. I've got time to spare.

Run_to_da_hills

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The British Army brush their murders under the carpet, plus their collusion with loyalist paramilitries were responsible for many deaths.
The IRA admit to their killings. These factors undoubtedly have an effect on the statistics.

This reminds me of back in the 80ies when the Raglan House apartment block in Ballsbridge got demolished by a gas explosion. No admitted liability at the time until there was a government inquiry

The was a joke going around about this "What is the difference between Dublin Gas and the Provos. The Provo's would have admitted to it".

RSF Cill Dara

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Brilliant

they are a bunch of terrorists FFS.

the IRA are a liberation movement!

less than 31% IRA victems were civilians(however this included Prision Guards, British Royal family and politians).1150 members of the british army or RUC were killed by the IRA


Approximailey 60% of those killed by the british army were civilians!
The british government was found guilty or war crimes including unlawful killing and inhumane and degrading treatment of POWs by the court of human rights.

the british government said they would never negotiate with the IRA , however the IRA met with members of the british government in 1972,75,82 and 98

An internal British Army document released in 2007 stated an expert opinion that the British Army had failed to defeat the IRA by force of arms. The military assessment describes the IRA as 'professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient armed organisation

Fratton Fred

RSF Cill Dara wrote: »

the IRA are a liberation movement!

less than 31% IRA victems were civilians(however this included Prision Guards, British Royal family and politians).1150 members of the british army or RUC were killed by the IRA


Approximailey 60% of those killed by the british army were civilians!
The british government was found guilty or war crimes including unlawful killing and inhumane and degrading treatment of POWs by the court of human rights.

the british government said they would never negotiate with the IRA , however the IRA met with members of the british government in 1972,75,82 and 98

An internal British Army document released in 2007 stated an expert opinion that the British Army had failed to defeat the IRA by force of arms. The military assessment describes the IRA as 'professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient armed organisation

Good to see the provo brain washing machine is still in good working order.

djpbarry

RSF Cill Dara wrote: »

scumbags?These are the Irish Soilders who layed down their lives in defence of their country.
No praise did they get, no rewards did they recieve, only hardship and struggle. There names and sacrafice will never fade, they are immortal, they are the bravest of the brave.

Please respect our fallen brothers.

I feel physically ill .

dlofnep wrote: »

No more than the British Army. I'll await for you to tell me how noble and just they are. Then you can wait for me to laugh at you. And we'll continue the cycle for a few pages. It's a slow night at work. I've got time to spare.

Funny how RSF Cill Dara does not receive an admonishment from you for diverting the conversation away from Aiden McAnespie and back to the IRA.

RSF Cill Dara wrote: »

less than 31% IRA victems were civilians...

Oh, is that all? Well, when you put it like that, where do I sign up? :rolleyes:

stovelid

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Good to see the provo brain washing machine is still in good working order.

The mention of brain would suggest insight and as such is a charitable overstatement in this context.

dlofnep

djpbarry wrote: »

Funny how RSF Cill Dara does not receive an admonishment from you for diverting the conversation away from Aiden McAnespie and back to the IRA.

He was responding to someone who had taken it off topic prior to that. Poor choice of logic. Aka, weaksauce.

djpbarry - what's your thoughts on this cold blooded murder of Aidan by British troops?