PSNI rejects British Army version of 1988 shooting

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes it is wrong what they have done, is there a problem? no, no more than any other army.

Yes, there is a problem. You are trying to use the logic that it's ok, because the track records of other armies may or may not be better or worse.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what the **** do you want me to say?

I want you to categorically state that the British army should own up to the responsibility for killing a vast amount of civilians in Ireland, and foreign. I want you to admit that they covered it up and didn't take the responsibility for killing civilians. I want you to admit that they unlawfully killed civilians without cause, in Ireland and foreign.

I want you to stop beating about the bush and condemn the British army for all the above, instead of trying to pretend it's ok with nonsense like "people die in war" and "but sure other armies do it.."

Fratton Fred wrote: »

(dlofnep will be mentioning an 8 year old girl in 5...4...3...2...)

I actually wasn't going to, but so what if I did? It would be a valid point to append to any debate about the atrocities of the British forces. Just because you try to belittle the death of a girl, which no apology was offered for - does not make it any less valid. It's this kind of nonsense that prove you are here to defend the British forces' blatant disregard for human life and their numerous slaughters of civilians.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

christ you are boring. these have nothing to do with the topic, it is just you trolling again.

It would be nice if you got your facts right as well.

Yes, as boring and rethorical as you are Fred and I intend to remain so.

Just pointing out in your post " Throughout its history, Britain and its imperialist forces have relied heavily on Childrens TV presenters to carry out their campaign of terror. " and that britain used more than Childrens TV presenters to carry out their campaign of terror.

dresden8

Soldier sees civilian

Soldier aims at civilian

Soldier shoots civilian

Soldier kills civilian

Fred's attempts to keep dragging the IRA into this discussion does not change the above facts.

Allah Hu Akbar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Good to see the provo brain washing machine is still in good working order.

Well if you knew anything his Username is RSF which stands for Republican Sinn Fein that's not the provos please once again try get our comments correct, unless I'm mistaken RSF? Could stand for republican band.

You know Fred your comments on this thread honestly make me sick. Aidan was MURDERED in cold blood and his family were told it was an accident :rolleyes: Now the PSNI is claiming that is all lies which everyone knows is lies.

You might not give a **** about this young man but his family have the right to be told the truth just like Bloody Sunday instead of been told a pack of lies.

Zambia

I have not read all the comments on the thread but once again its trial by media, and all bollox.

If Soldier A shot a civilian well then he should be brought before a military court and tried/sentenced by a Military/civilian Jury for the crime.

If you cant prove soldier A did shoot a civilian well then you should stop yapping the HIT has had millions pumped into them and we have seen very little in the way of actual justice. They are no more than a wooden spoon in a political pot.

The PSNI where quick to say that Nuala Oloan was mistaken in her comments that there was loyalist sympathy's in The RUC. When she could not bring someone to book.

Chances are the British Soldier did shoot the civilian as oops my finger slipped is a pathetic excuse.

Fratton Fred

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

Well if you knew anything his Username is RSF which stands for Republican Sinn Fein that's not the provos please once again try get our comments correct, unless I'm mistaken RSF? Could stand for republican band.

You know Fred your comments on this thread honestly make me sick. Aidan was MURDERED in cold blood and his family were told it was an accident :rolleyes: Now the PSNI is claiming that is all lies which everyone knows is lies.

You might not give a **** about this young man but his family have the right to be told the truth just like Bloody Sunday instead of been told a pack of lies.

go back and read my posts again. I have said more than once we need to find out what happened and I have condemned the killing of innocent people. what more do you want?

the thing that makes me sick is the hard on half the republicans are getting over this. it has nothing to do with the killing of Aiden McAnespie, it is all to do with points scoring.

Fratton Fred

dresden8 wrote: »

Soldier sees civilian

Soldier aims at civilian

Soldier shoots civilian

Soldier kills civilian

Fred's attempts to keep dragging the IRA into this discussion does not change the above facts.

I don't think I did.

Allah Hu Akbar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

go back and read my posts again. I have said more than once we need to find out what happened and I have condemned the killing of innocent people. what more do you want?

the thing that makes me sick is the hard on half the republicans are getting over this. it has nothing to do with the killing of Aiden McAnespie, it is all to do with points scoring.

Points scoring. Do you think this is all a game like a soccer match?

This is about the families been told the truth, that is it.

Can you even imagine if that was your child, I'm guessing you don't but how would you feel if it was your child wouldn't you want to know the truth?

Allah Hu Akbar

Benedict XVI wrote: »

I remember when this happened and it always had a air of cover up about it.

BTW, a lot less innocent civilians died at the hands of the imperial British army than at the hands of the IRA

Typical a thread on a man been murdered by the British and you come out with as good as so what sure the IRA killed more civilians...

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think I have, on more than one occasion.

Yes it is wrong what they have done, is there a problem? no, no more than any other army.

what the **** do you want me to say?

(dlofnep will be mentioning an 8 year old girl in 5...4...3...2...)

dlofnep wrote: »

Just because you try to belittle the death of a girl, which no apology was offered for - does not make it any less valid. It's this kind of nonsense that prove you are here to defend the British forces' blatant disregard for human life and their numerous slaughters of civilians.

Yes dlofnep, Fred's the one who makes a snide comment about the deaths of Irish people, and he thinks it should be regarded as a bit of 'fun'. An Irish person replies with a snide comment on the deaths of british people - ofcourse that's offensive.

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Back a few years ago in Boston I saw a Belfast girl (well a walking piece of S**t rather than a girl) with a tee shirt that went something like this

IRA British Tour 1993

Warrington 20/03

IRA 2 Brits 0

What this was referring to was the murder of Jonathan Ball, aged 3; and Timothy Parry, aged 12 in the Warrington bomb

From your posts it’s obvious you support this type of thing.

I hope you burn in hell you poor excuse for a human being

It never ceases to amaze me how those who are loudest in their condemnation of Republicans and their alleged values ( like the T shirt ), never seem to see or be so angry and upset about the actual values of the british forces and their supporters.

getz

Tomas[slab] murphy--leader of the IRA- and the IRA-plc -by criminal activity invested over 9 million pounds buying houses in the uk-on information recieved from the republic the police have seized a large number properties the money has thought to have come from bank robberies in the republic and other criminal activities ---Mcarmalite must be proud of him

TOMASJ

getz wrote: »

Tomas[slab] murphy--leader of the IRA- and the IRA-plc -by criminal activity invested over 9 million pounds buying houses in the uk-on information recieved from the republic the police have seized a large number properties the money has thought to have come from bank robberies in the republic and other criminal activities ---Mcarmalite must be proud of him

like Danny Morrison, (cleared just this week of a trumped up kidnap charge on which he went to jail for 9 years)
It will probably take Tomas Slab Murphy 17 years to clear his name and get any proper justice.

Allah Hu Akbar

getz wrote: »

Tomas[slab] murphy--leader of the IRA- and the IRA-plc -by criminal activity invested over 9 million pounds buying houses in the uk-on information recieved from the republic the police have seized a large number properties the money has thought to have come from bank robberies in the republic and other criminal activities ---Mcarmalite must be proud of him

PLC. Private limited company?

Anyone who is a republican would think Slab is a good man which he is no doubt about that he has spent his life in the republican movement.

McArmalite

getz wrote: »

Tomas[slab] murphy--leader of the IRA- and the IRA-plc -by criminal activity invested over 9 million pounds buying houses in the uk-on information recieved from the republic the police have seized a large number properties the money has thought to have come from bank robberies in the republic and other criminal activities ---Mcarmalite must be proud of him

So how are Slab and co. supposed to procure weapons if things start to boil over in the six counties sometime ? Do you think weapons can be got on the international black market just by asking nicely. Or are they supposed to put their faith in the Irish govt. not to stand idly by the next time ?

They haven't gone away you know

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote: »

like Danny Morrison, (cleared just this week of a trumped up kidnap charge on which he went to jail for 9 years)
It will probably take Tomas Slab Murphy 17 years to clear his name and get any proper justice.

Absolutely STUNNINGLY blinkered outlook.

The police force reject a British army report and it's "Look here!!! The police are right - no question"

The police force arrest a "republican" and it's "the police force are wrong".

I'll fully admit that I don't know whether the police are right or wrong in EITHER case, but it strikes me as odd that they ONLY seem to be "right" when they find in favour of some "republican" cause, and are completely corrupt in all other cases.

getz

t [slab]murphy says he is not a member of the IRA and a gerry Adams said if he says he is not a member of the IRA i believe him--even mcarmlite knows that is a lie-what was it he said --about guns--both the royalist P M and the IRA are run by gangsters and no peace will happen untill people stop supporting them meanwhile they get richer and richer

dlofnep

Eh did someone delete my post? I'm pretty sure I responded to Liam 15 minutes ago.

Liam - The idea is that the Police up north have always been supportive of British forces, and that if they are not swallowing this story - it says something. Not to mention, that the documented events from the soldier were laughable in the first place.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

Eh did someone delete my post? I'm pretty sure I responded to Liam 15 minutes ago.

Liam - The idea is that the Police up north have always been supportive of British forces, and that if they are not swallowing this story - it says something. Not to mention, that the documented events from the soldier were laughable in the first place.

Fair point, and even I can see where there's been a perceived bias in the past.

But you've got to surely see where I'm coming from re the sudden rush by republicans to assume and highlight the police are suddenly "right" ?

I mean, if the police do get it wrong so often, mightn't they be wrong this time ?*

* P.S. I'm not suggesting that they are, but then I'm not the one suggesting they are with "Slab", either

Also, assuming they're right, can we highlight that this shows what can be achieved ? I mean, imagine if they got the same recognition and support when investigating Robert McCartney's murder ?

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But you've got to surely see where I'm coming from re the sudden rush by republicans to assume and highlight the police are suddenly "right" ?

Well, like I said - I think it's because they have been supportive to the British forces in the past - so it stands out that they would go against their report. And given the past with policing in the North towards nationalists - I think you can understand why they have been skeptic towards the police on many issues. So given the context, I think there is no pick & choose mentality on this issue if you look it at at face value.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Also, assuming they're right, can we highlight that this shows what can be achieved ? I mean, imagine if they got the same recognition and support when investigating Robert McCartney's murder ?

I felt that issue was handled very poorly in regards to Robert's death. I'm not from Belfast, so I don't know what really happened there.

And I'm supportive of policing, provided it's a fair and balanced force that does not specifically target nationalists for the sake of it and where policing & justice is devolved. I think most nationalists are.

Many hardlined nationalists however will not support policing in the North however because it administers British rule in the North. And nothing will change their mind on the matter.

TOMASJ

Liam Byrne

I'll fully admit that I don't know whether the police are right or wrong in EITHER case, but it strikes me as odd that they ONLY seem to be "right" when they find in favour of some "republican" cause, and are completely corrupt in all other cases.

Danny Morrison's case is only the tip of the iceberg as far as police corruption is concerned against republicans,
I'm sure you are aware what they got up to during the Stalker investigation's when outside police were brought in to investigate their activity's .

nesf

dlofnep wrote: »

Eh did someone delete my post? I'm pretty sure I responded to Liam 15 minutes ago.

Nope it doesn't show up in the thread at all (if it had been deleted I'd be able to still see it).

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

I think you can understand why they have been skeptic towards the police on many issues.

Yup. I think I said as much above.

So given the context, I think there is no pick & choose mentality on this issue if you look it at at face value.

Again, fair enough. I wasn't looking for agreement, but just for the "where I'm coming from" to be acknowledged as a "hmmm - you've some sort of a point there alright".

I felt that issue was handled very poorly in regards to Robert's death. I'm not from Belfast, so I don't know what really happened there.

OK. Again, if you can see where I'm coming from in relation to what could possibly be achieved in relation to justice being served if there were co-operation, then I've made my point.

I know there are - unfortunately - two "sides", and that the sectarianism and bigotry often takes precedence over the desire to see justice done, but hopefully people - if they're praising this decision - will start to see sense, rather than point-scoring about tips of icebergs.

As with so many things related to the North, people who claim to want to see justice done seem to only want it when it suits them.

Hopefully this decision might be a step towards normality.

dlofnep

nesf wrote: »

Nope it doesn't show up in the thread at all (if it had been deleted I'd be able to still see it).

Hm, I must have closed the browser before clicking reply. No worries. I mod another vbulletin site, so I know it does state it to mods if it's been deleted, so no worries.

Liam - When anyone innocent is involved, I'd like to see justice served. I don't dispute that things have been transparent. All I can offer is that faith in policing in the North in the past has not gone without skepticism and justifiably so.

I would like some form or normality in curbing anti-social behaviour in the North, but at the same point - the PSNI must demonstrate that they are not just a new name to an old face, but a completely new and unbiased police force. From the reports I've heard from various other Republicans, there are many still within the PSNI who retain their old RUC ways. Once policing & justice is devolved - hopefully we can all sort out an real issues within policing and give that much needed stability to some communities.

But I fear, that regardless of whether we support it or not, there will be some who will never administer British rule in the North or any of it's institutions and will never have faith in the PSNI/RUC. This is an issue that cannot be resolved. I am not of the opinion that it's administering British rule there, but rather allowing for stability while we as Republicans work to unite Ireland under peaceful and democratic terms.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

the PSNI must demonstrate that they are not just a new name to an old face, but a completely new and unbiased police force.

Agreed.

But likewise, the public must demonstrate that they are not selective in what justice they want to see done.

I won't be simplistic or trivialise it, because I know it's not an easy task, but if the police go asking about a crime and all the witnesses clam up, then that's not the police's fault. Corruption in the police force needs to be addressed, but the old "informer" mentality needs to be weeded out too; if someone commits a crime, they should be reported, as would be the case in any normal society.

Like I said, history and violence on both sides have damaged the whole scenario, and that needs to be addressed - but from both sides.

And I genuinely hope that the subject of this thread will be the first step in bringing that normalisation closer, where crimes are recognised, reported and dealt with.

oscarBravo

dlofnep wrote: »

Many hardlined nationalists however will not support policing in the North however because it administers British rule in the North. And nothing will change their mind on the matter.

dlofnep wrote: »

...there will be some who will never administer British rule in the North or any of it's institutions and will never have faith in the PSNI/RUC. This is an issue that cannot be resolved.

It's depressing to have to acknowledge that some people are so utterly entrenched in their bitterness and hatred that they are prepared to allow conflict and - if necessary - violence to continue indefinitely rather than swallow their pride and move on.

By contrast, I just got back from Grenada, which was such a basket case in 1983, complete with violence and assassinations, that the US invaded it to restore some semblance of government to the place. Twenty-five short years later, all the internecine strife has been completely put behind them. There are no recriminations, no provocations, no refusal to accept the legitimacy of the police - nothing. Grenadians are mature enough to accept that what's past is past, and there's nothing to be gained from nursing hatred.

It's a lesson some of us would do well to study.

Max001

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

The British Army brush their murders under the carpet, plus their collusion with loyalist paramilitries were responsible for many deaths.
The IRA admit to their killings. These factors undoubtedly have an effect on the statistics.

Tell that to the McCartney sisters in Belfast!

cherrypicker555

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So if he shot him deliberately, the soldier will be given a smacked wrist and let off, because it happened before the GFA, if it was an accident and he was shot accidentally, the soldier will be charged with man slaughter and given two years in prison.

As much as I'm sure the family would like closure, what is the point in opening old wounds?

The shot richoched off the ground and shot him, at worst manslaughter at best a tragic accident, provos dont actually really give a s***, such incidents are simply useful political propaganda, thats the reality.

Daithi McGee

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Back a few years ago in Boston I saw a Belfast girl (well a walking piece of S**t rather than a girl) with a tee shirt that went something like this

IRA British Tour 1993

Warrington 20/03

IRA 2 Brits 0

What this was referring to was the murder of Jonathan Ball, aged 3; and Timothy Parry, aged 12 in the Warrington bomb

From your posts it’s obvious you support this type of thing.

I hope you burn in hell you poor excuse for a human being

[/quote=McArmilite]I don't beleive for a second about an alleged Belfast girl with that t shirt, pure porkie.[/quote]

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Saw it with my own two eyes at a GAA match in Boston in the summer of 1998.

I'm sure you could still buy one on the web, I'll look around

Any luck finding that on the web buddy?

TOMASJ

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

The shot richoched off the ground and shot him, at worst manslaughter at best a tragic accident, provos dont actually really give a s***, such incidents are simply useful political propaganda, thats the reality.

That must add up to seven or eight hundred tragic accident, carried out by the British in the North.

A Dub in Glasgo

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

The shot richoched off the ground and shot him, at worst manslaughter at best a tragic accident, provos dont actually really give a s***, such incidents are simply useful political propaganda, thats the reality.

Ahh, the ricochet excuse again