Are you gonna march on wednesday 22nd October?

Crash

Peslo wrote:

No!!! To put it simply - You spend 3 or four years in Uni Expecting to get paid more when you graduate. As a result, Graduates pay, on average, 70% more tax.
The Government does ALREADY make it's money back in the the takings of ten years' worth of earnings. And most grads would be in employment for a FURTHER 25 years after the gov has made it's money back.

The government already benefits tax-wise from the free third-level education.

fin.

Not fin. That finger in the ears mentality of "no fees - EVER" is going to be what'll screw the current student population hand over foot. This is one of those issues that a proactive response is gonna have to be taken, otherwise you'll see the biggest public screwing you'll ever see. And all the unions will cry, without realising that had they acted in a proactive manner this wouldnt have come about.

EGaffney

jmccrohan wrote: »

Points have always been rising (even through out the good times)..

Kids are getting smarter and grinds schools are artificially inflating the cao points.

No, that's not the case. Points have been falling on average until recently, i.e. 1 or 2 years ago. Maybe not in TCD, but on average in the vast majority of CAO institutions, including institutes of technology.

Boston

Peslo wrote: »

If we had to pay upwards or 7 or 8,000 euro next year, how many of us will not be in college next year? How many of our friends and classmates just won't be able to go to college anymore?

We all should be going out there and march to support each other!!!

You're right, there would be a lot fewer useless fuktards taking up space.

EGaffney wrote: »

2. The best students, i.e. those who could theoretically make a lot of money, will leave Ireland and take all that potential tax income with them.

Thats not true at all at all. Few people, even those just graduated, have the ability to just cut all ties and travel the world looking for the highest paying job. I'd earn more in the UK as I'd get almost the same salary but in sterling. I'd also earn more by working for a financial consultancy company then I would working as an engineer.

Peslo

jmccrohan wrote: »

Is this all the ****e the SU has been feeding you?

No. Shane Kelly, the President of the USI did. And all of that info came DIRECTLY from the department of finance.

dan719 wrote: »

And what if that seven or eight thousand was paid back in the form of additional taxation after graduation, i.e a derirative of the UK/Australian model?

Oh, forgot to mention, the Austrailian model is being reviewed beacause it doesn't work!
And in relation to the UK model, if you're talking about England, this leads to and ARTS Degree costing the student more than a Degree for Medicine beacuse of the way it's paid back. The Med graduate earns more thus pays back quicker. This IS what is happening right now in the UK.

Boston

There is no UK wide model. You're taking about the English model.

Peslo

Boston wrote: »

There is no UK wide model. You're taking about the English model.

Yes I am, edited appropriately. It was dan719 who originally said the UK

Peslo

Boston wrote: »

You're right, there would be a lot fewer useless fuktards taking up space.

Excuse me, but since when did you have the right to call anybody a useless fuktard??

shay_562

EGaffney wrote:

There are of course other reasons, but three is a nice number.

I, for one, lost the ability to formulate an argument in anything other than a 3-point structure back in 1st year.

dan719 wrote:

Saying that I am dubious we would see any real increase in quality with the return of fees, with the Gov. simply reducing their own contribution towards third level institutions.

Word. That, among other reasons (such as the shambles of a current grant system, which makes me wonder how a wider-scale system of means-testing and fee remission schemes would ever hope to function) is why I weigh in on the "anti-fees" side of the debate. Though I think Going Forward has a very good point about the capacity of USI et al to negotiate a 'good' fees system rather than just refusing to discuss it and inevitably getting steam-rolled.

Boston

Since about 1922. See constitution, Article 40, section 6

6. 1° The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:


i. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.

I've a right to think someone is a useless fuktard, and I've a right to express that opinion.

God bless Ireland.

Peslo

Boston wrote: »

Since about 1916. See constitution, Article 40, section 6



I've a right to think someone is a useless fuktard, and I've a right to express that opinion.

God bless Ireland.

Well how about a bit of manners. And Respect. If you can't saying anything nice....

And what you were implying, if not explicitly obviously saying, was that people who cannot afford to go to college are useless, space-taking, fuktards. That's a disgraceful thing to say.

Peleus

EGaffney wrote: »

Em, yes. This is yet another huge fallacy with the "tax take makes up for student subsidies" argument.

3. In a recession, the demand for education rises. That's why CAO points went up this year. So introducing more rational student subsidies will have an even lesser effect on participation than it would otherwise.

Actually all college places, or the vast majority of them, were assigned well before anyone even mentioned the word recession. so how can a recession have an affect on 2008's CAO points?

Peslo

Going Forward wrote: »

Not fin. That finger in the ears mentality of "no fees - EVER" is going to be what'll screw the current student population hand over foot.

How so?

Peleus

dan719 wrote: »

And what if that seven or eight thousand was paid back in the form of additional taxation after graduation, i.e a derirative of the UK/Australian model?
The S.U has to realise it can't simply throw the toys out of the pram on this topic, personally although I am not particularly passionate either for or against I feel a loan system would immediately alay many fears of exclusion, i.e the burden is not placed onto parents.
Saying that I am dubious we would see any real increase in quality with the return of fees, with the Gov. simply reducing their own contribution towards third level institutions.

How about, in stead of a loan system, we set up a tab system whereby we pay the govenment for our education when we have a career. That way we can cut out the middleman ie: the bank.
If fees were reindroduced that would be the way i'd want to pay. But i really hope they aren't.

Crash

Peslo wrote:

How so?

Cus maybe not this year, maybe not next year, but some time within the forseeable future, fees are going to return. and unless the student body at such a time enters into proper talks with the government on the issue, its going to be to the detriment of students and their education. Simple as.

Peslo

Going Forward wrote: »

Cus maybe not this year, maybe not next year, but some time within the forseeable future, fees are going to return. and unless the student body at such a time enters into proper talks with the government on the issue, its going to be to the detriment of students and their education. Simple as.

Haven't exactly seen the government reaching out and asking for suggestions TBH. And not just from The USI, I'm talking about opposition parties too.

Crash

Thats not, and never will be, an excuse for being reactive as opposed to proactive. USI, by the way, is a token body that is ineffective to the extreme - I wish there was a student representative body that wasn't as essentially flawed as USI, but c'est la vie.

manicmonoliths

Peslo wrote: »

Haven't exactly seen the government reaching out and asking for suggestions TBH. And not just from The USI, I'm talking about opposition parties too.

That's because at the moment USI refuses to negotiate on fees at all. The current policy is 'no fees under any circumstances'

If the Gov. is dead set on reintroducing fees, USI will not be able to negotiate a good deal from the Gov, so USI could actually be doing more harm then good.

Peslo

manicmonoliths wrote: »

That's because at the moment USI refuses to negotiate on fees at all. The current policy is 'no fees under any circumstances'

If the Gov. is dead set on reintroducing fees, USI will not be able to negotiate a good deal from the Gov, so USI could actually be doing more harm then good.

True, but I'm pretty sure that the USI or anybody campaigning for "No Fees" should be campaigning for the introduction of fees if the wanted to negotiate.

Crash

Well you can't specifically say that its USI's fault per se, they're following the mandate set by the member unions. Unfortunately, such a mandate is so closely binding on what they can/cannot do that essentially its stuck in the mud.

EGaffney

Boston wrote: »

Thats not true at all at all. Few people, even those just graduated, have the ability to just cut all ties and travel the world looking for the highest paying job. I'd earn more in the UK as I'd get almost the same salary but in sterling. I'd also earn more by working for a financial consultancy company then I would working as an engineer.

Which of the following statements is more likely to be true:
1) The best students leave for abroad; or
2) Mediocre students leave for abroad?

Think about all the graduates who have been recruited to the investment banks in the City - best, or mediocre? All those doing postgraduate study in the United States - best, or mediocre?

Lots of people leave the country after graduating. Those who leave are likely to be the best.

EGaffney

Peleus wrote: »

Actually all college places, or the vast majority of them, were assigned well before anyone even mentioned the word recession. so how can a recession have an affect on 2008's CAO points?

Um. Because everyone has been predicting a coming downturn since, at latest, the Northern Rock collapse in mid-2007?

Boston

I think there are many factors and someones academic ability is just one.

Peleus

EGaffney wrote: »

Um. Because everyone has been predicting a coming downturn since, at latest, the Northern Rock collapse in mid-2007?

I as a student never heard anything about a predicted rescession and im sure very few other students did.

Jonathan

Peleus wrote: »

I as a student never heard anything about a predicted rescession and im sure very few other students did.

In fairness I had but I doubt any one could have predicted the extent of it.

PurpleFistMixer

Peleus wrote: »

I as a student never heard anything about a predicted rescession and im sure very few other students did.

I actually spent secondary school being told we were lucky to be entering the working world at such a strong time in the economy. Hm...

Jonathan

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

I actually spent secondary school being told we were lucky to be entering the working world at such a strong time in the economy. Hm...

Now is a great time to be in college.

You wont have to deal with the real world until 2012, by which time the storm will have passed.

shay_562

jmccrohan wrote:

Now is a great time to be in college.

You wont have to deal with the real world until 2012, by which time the storm will have passed.

Well, yeah, I mean that's...hang on.

*Looks at "TCD '09" student card*

*Looks at outside world*

...ah crap. You know those mornings when you wake up and there's, like, a force 8 wind blowing outside and it's dark and rainy and you just say "Fcuk it", roll over and go back to sleep for a few hours? That's kinda how looking at graduate recruitment prospects feels right now. Masters, anyone?

EGaffney

shay_562 wrote: »

Masters, anyone?

/me raises hand

/me is glad he resisted the temptations of JP Morgan

shay_562

shay_562 wrote: »

...ah crap. You know those mornings when you wake up and there's, like, a force 8 wind blowing outside and it's dark and rainy and you just say "Fcuk it", roll over and go back to sleep for a few hours? That's kinda how looking at graduate recruitment prospects feels right now. Masters, anyone?

There is a storm blowing outside now.. and I have to get up and go to courses for my masters...

Peleus

i have a lecture when this march is on. they should really stop lectures during the march because i want to go but i don't want to miss a good maths class.