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Are you gonna march on wednesday 22nd October?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Peslo


    Two points: (i) firstly there are already private colleges where people can choose to pay for courses such as law. These courses usually require significantly less points than courses in TCD/UCD/DCU etc.
    (ii) However this said I don't think that academic standards would drop if fees were introduced. And I think it's one of the more rubbish arguments against the reintroduction of fees that I have heard. Medicine will still attract people who are going to get massive amounts of points as would courses like Law, Physio, Pharmacy and others. Fees would mean changes in lots of ways and would be detrimental for many students but I don't think academic standards would drop. I think what the OP was saying is that if there were fees there would be no one going to college who was just going there because it was free and thats what all their mates were doing. Or at least part of what he was saying.
    I'm a bit confused by what you're saying? I am in agreement that paying for college will mean that the points will go down such as the private colleges you mentioned. the fact the people who are "just going coz their mates are" will not go if they have to pay... Well they still need the points to get in. And I am sure there are people who get less points than them that could afford to go....
    So I don't beleive that the standards of undergrads will be "higher". And also, fees will eliminate undergrads who at the moment are striving towards this "higher"ness the OP was talking about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Peslo


    10 - 15,000 was the figure quoted by RTÉ.
    Did anybody see Hugh on the tele with the megaphone???

    I did.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭Brian


    Who?


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭manicmonoliths


    Just saw all the sabbats on Rte news!

    Protest was mental today! The most fun I've had in a good while, despite the head injury :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,579 ✭✭✭Pet


    Easily 10,000. Saw it and will have photos in the next few minutes.
    Where are they? Flickr?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,024 ✭✭✭Awayindahils


    Peslo wrote: »
    the fact the people who are "just going coz their mates are" will not go if they have to pay... Well they still need the points to get in. And I am sure there are people who get less points than them that could afford to go....
    So I don't beleive that the standards of undergrads will be "higher". And also, fees will eliminate undergrads who at the moment are striving towards this "higher"ness the OP was talking about.

    Ugh, right.

    Having the points and have the inclination are not the same thing. There are hundreds of people in Arts in UCD, who are there just because their mates were going to UCD too. 365 points is not a massive push in terms of working for the LC. Lots of people can achieve this and then have absolutely no interest in being in college. They do no work, never turn up to tutorials, scrape through exams if they pass them at all and clogg up the system for those who really care.

    Secondly people, due to the fact that college is free, put down any course that they think that they might get into, rather than really looking into getting into a course that they want, or even really researching what it is that they want to do in college.

    A fees system would encourage more people to put more thought into what they want to do in college. As such there should be an increase in the number of people who really want to be in that course (I exclude the likes of Law and most medical science courses) and therefor better undergraduate participation as the students are enthused by the subject.

    I think you are being a bit naive when you assume that having the points for a course means that you will be able for the course, or that you will be suited to college at all. Learning in university is completely unrelated to learning for the LC.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Peslo


    Ugh, right.

    Having the points and have the inclination are not the same thing. There are hundreds of people in Arts in UCD, who are there just because their mates were going to UCD too. 365 points is not a massive push in terms of working for the LC. Lots of people can achieve this and then have absolutely no interest in being in college. They do no work, never turn up to tutorials, scrape through exams if they pass them at all and clogg up the system for those who really care.

    Secondly people, due to the fact that college is free, put down any course that they think that they might get into, rather than really looking into getting into a course that they want, or even really researching what it is that they want to do in college.

    A fees system would encourage more people to put more thought into what they want to do in college. As such there should be an increase in the number of people who really want to be in that course (I exclude the likes of Law and most medical science courses) and therefor better undergraduate participation as the students are enthused by the subject.

    I think you are being a bit naive when you assume that having the points for a course means that you will be able for the course, or that you will be suited to college at all. Learning in university is completely unrelated to learning for the LC.
    I see you point, but you really really can't generalise that 365 isn't a lot of work. I mean, there are peopl working their ass off to pass ordinary maths for example. what's not alot of work for you may be for somebody else.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Peslo


    Just saw all the sabbats on Rte news!

    Protest was mental today! The most fun I've had in a good while, despite the head injury :o
    Ah manic, nice to see ya!!
    I'd actually like to reiterate your advice to anybody with a can of KALASHNIKOW in there hand right now... Quit drinkin it after a couple cans. My head is spinning and me hands are flying about the keyboard. And not in a good way :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭manicmonoliths


    Peslo wrote: »
    Ah manic, nice to see ya!!
    I'd actually like to reiterate your advice to anybody with a can of KALASHNIKOW in there hand right now... Quit drinkin it after a couple cans. My head is spinning and me hands are flying about the keyboard. And not in a good way :rolleyes:

    I think I had 2 cans before the march, then 1 after. I'm fairly ok, I think I've built up a tolerance level to it. Though I've never repeated my 6 can - 2 hour session that happened in freshers week.
    Kalashnikow really helps loosen the tounge for a bit of shouting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,024 ✭✭✭Awayindahils


    Peslo wrote: »
    I see you point, but you really really can't generalise that 365 isn't a lot of work. I mean, there are peopl working their ass off to pass ordinary maths for example. what's not alot of work for you may be for somebody else.

    You were the one saying that academic standards would drop if there were fees. If there were fees people who found academic achievement very difficult might be more inclined to follow more vocational routes as it would not be as easy to just go to college.

    So yes 365 might be a huge amount of work for some people and that is of course the sop point that you were going to make, but at the same time if you're concerned about academic standards it isn't great.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭Brian




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Peslo


    I think I had 2 cans before the march, then 1 after. I'm fairly ok, I think I've built up a tolerance level to it. Though I've never repeated my 6 can - 2 hour session that happened in freshers week.
    Kalashnikow really helps loosen the tounge for a bit of shouting.
    Ha! Tell me about it - I was handing them out!amonst the crowds!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Peslo


    If there were fees people who found academic achievement very difficult might be more inclined to follow more vocational routes as it would not be as easy to just go to college.
    Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? If the fees are brought in then these people, who will not get high grades in the LC but still worked hard to get what they got, will have a better chance of gettin in as a result of those over-acheiving slackers not willing to pay to go just to be with their mates


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,024 ✭✭✭Awayindahils


    Peslo wrote: »
    If there were fees people who found academic achievement very difficult might be more inclined to follow more vocational routes as it would not be as easy to just go to college.
    Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? If the fees are brought in then these people, who will not get high grades in the LC but still worked hard to get what they got, will have a better chance of gettin in as a result of those over-acheiving slackers not willing to pay to go just to be with their mates

    Over-achieving slackers? And I'm the one who is contradicting myself?

    There would be less of people just following their mates, whether these individuals are over achievers or not. I don't know if this would result in people with lower points getting into better courses or not, but there is something you are over looking in your argument. Colleges do not set the points for courses, the CAO does. As in the students themselves. So medicine could potentially be 350 points, if the last person to get offered a place in medicine was someone with 350.

    And so no, I don't agree with you at all. I believe that fees would create a situation where there was a greater degree of self selection on the part of the individual in determining whether or not they were going to go to college. If you have to break your balls to get 365 it is quite possible that you may be more suited to something that is not academic. Why pay for 3-4 years of something you may very well not be suited to and quite possibly would not enjoy?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Peslo


    Over-achieving slackers? And I'm the one who is contradicting myself?

    There would be less of people just following their mates, whether these individuals are over achievers or not. I don't know if this would result in people with lower points getting into better courses or not, but there is something you are over looking in your argument. Colleges do not set the points for courses, the CAO does. As in the students themselves. So medicine could potentially be 350 points, if the last person to get offered a place in medicine was someone with 350.
    I'm sorry, but THIS IS EVERYTHING I HAVE BEEING SAYING!*




    Apologies for capitalism.






    *actual words may not be the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37 Leon08


    I think the fees argument is going to rage on for quite a while, but we need to start looking at the bigger picture: the future of this country.
    (apologies about the length of this post)

    Contrary to the widespread opinion that the economic downturn is only going to last for a ¨year or two¨ and that all will be rosy again by the time most current freshers graduate, the fact of the matter is that this country is in big **** on the economic front. And that fact affects the vast majority of us.

    Economics is a funny thing, and its very hard to predict what will happen. But it doesn´t take a Theoretical Physicist to see that our economic model just isnt right.

    We are a services-based nation, our manufacturing base is tiny compared to the likes of Germany, the US, Russia etc. We have put all our eggs in the one basket. I know that there are exceptions such as Intel and Dell etc, but dont hold your breath as regards their future in this country.

    And lets just look for a moment why those kind of companies invested here in the first place. Apart from the Corporation Tax incentives, the reason that this was an appealing place to invest was because we had relatively large number of technical graduates who were mostly unemployed, and the corporate cost base here was a lot lower than in many other places at that time.

    Two decades or so down the line, lets review our situation. The economy has progressed due to the prosperity/employment these manufacturing/technical companies brought. Our minimum wage is now one of the highest in Europe. Business costs including purchase of land, wages, tax, transportation etc have sky-rocketed. Obviously the chief executives of major international firms are going to think twice about setting up here when they can do it ten times cheaper somewhere else (e.g. India, which like we had, have a vast number of graduates, cheap operating costs, political stability etc).

    Down through the ages, the economic progression of a place has taken a very distinct course. People found a raw natural resource that they could exploit, be it gold, coal, oil, iron ore, fishing, agriculture etc, and they settled near it. Once the infrastructure to exploit that resource was in place, and there were people employed in that process, those people required services.

    Hence the establishment of service-based businesses like Pubs, Clothes shops, Hardware shops, Barbers etc, the list goes on and on. Of course once those businesses were established they too required workers who in turn required services etc, and so the cycle continues. Then comes the need for house building and the need for trades-people etc etc etc.

    But think about it, would it have happened the other way around? Would a town be established with something like an insurance company or at its core? Somehow i dont think so.

    (Almost done ;))

    So now lets put this in the context of Ireland. Our options are somewhat limited by the fact that we dont have the vast amount of raw materials such as Canada or Russia etc. So lets stick to what we DO have.

    We are an island and as such we are perfectly suited to research into the next generation of tidal-based power generation. We also have plenty of wind, so we could even start exporting electricity generated by wind turbines if an appropriate infrastructure was put in place.

    Similarly, we have a relatively unoccupied radio-wave transmission spectrum which would enable hi-tech companies to experiment with the next generation of wireless broadband.

    We also have a well-established pharmaceutical industry working on the medicines and vaccines of the future. This industry in particular is going to be absolutely HUGE in the years to come.

    So now down to my main point (yes, there is one!):

    Lets utilise the resources that we have at our disposal. We are an English speaking, politically stable, educated nation at the heart of Europe, conveniently located between North America and an ideal stop-over location in terms of air and sea transport.

    We have many historic ties with countries such as the US, who would most definitely continue to invest here if they saw that our government had the foresight to invest in research, create a knowledge based economy and drive down operating costs.

    This knowledge-based ecomony that everyone keeps harping on about will require competent, skilled and eager technical gradates.

    To produce the right number of such graduates should be the aim the government. To move away from property and house building which generates NOTHING for the economy should be the aim of this government. To attract inward investment from large multi-nationals should be the aim of this government. Once this is done, the services industry will develop and prosper.

    I fear for the future of this country, mainly because i know that none of the fat cats that govern this country will have the balls or the foresight to do take these measures. Also because a lot of people of my generation (19-25) believe they have a right to everything, especially the right to a good time while somebody else picks up the tab.

    I also look at the kind of people that turned up for the protest earlier today. I was there, but not for the reasons a lot of other people were. A great help all ye with ¨**** Fees¨ banners were. No wonder the credibility of our generation is gone down the drain. Thats the kind of attitude and intelligent input you´d expect from the scumbags on either side of the Orangemen / Republican parades in the North.
    Id say most older people were crying with laughter (or despair) when they watched the 6 o´clock news and saw some of the Hot-Shots that turned up for the protest in all their glory, topless in front of Leinster House holding brooms and cans of crappy Bavaria.

    So at the end of this big long rant, where has all this hullabaloo got us? No where. Maybe they wont introduce fees, maybe they will. Either way we´re ****ed unless we open our eyes and take a long hard look at our desperate situation, and find the balls to act.

    Thats my tuppence worth. Flame me or not, i dont give a **** either way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Hello Leon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭donegalgirl28


    Was there myself! Got into the spirit and made placards. Seen a few interesting placards/posters during the protest.

    "Christopher Reeves wouldn't stand for this"
    "Stick your fees up your gees"
    and the legendary "Don't"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Moorsy


    Have to say the protest today was great although maybe the P.A. system could have been louder, better (i.e. speakers half way down the street aswell) so everybody could hear but we really turned out and showed a strong presence. I hope we can keep the pressure up around the country and show the possible effectivness of SU's and USI in general.

    Fair play to the O.A.P's also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭Brian


    Too long; didn't read.

    Don't like long-windedness.





    And I apologise for the harshness Leon, I'm using Windows and it's being irritating. I'm also tired.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,024 ✭✭✭Awayindahils


    Peslo wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but THIS IS EVERYTHING I HAVE BEEING SAYING!*

    The LC is only one measure of academic ability and does not translate all that well to college. Points may drop for some courses if there less students but most of the courses that are currently difficult to get into will still be dificult to get into. Medicine is hardly about to become the new Arts or Computer Science used as fall back on th CAO.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭Brian


    The LC is only one measure of academic ability and does not translate all that well to college.

    QFTruthiness. I'm struggling to get motivated to attend lectures when all it is is guys reading from powerpoints. I'm expected to actually do homework that I find myself.. homework.. internet.. homework ... internet.. hello?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,488 ✭✭✭mathew


    Baza210 wrote: »

    And I apologise for the harshness Leon, I'm using Windows and it's being irritating. I'm also tired.

    Mac / Linux ftw...


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,024 ✭✭✭Awayindahils


    Baza210 wrote: »
    QFTruthiness. I'm struggling to get motivated to attend lectures when all it is is guys reading from powerpoints. I'm expected to actually do homework that I find myself.. homework.. internet.. homework ... internet.. hello?

    Lol. Yeah it does get quite hard to motivate yourself at times. Try being in fourth in year an AHSS course. You have to find the question yourself. Then the answer. All very hard to keep going with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭PurpleFistMixer


    Leon - phew, so us science students can relax onto our highhorses then. Excellent. That's what I'm assuming your post is about, anyway. >.>


    The protest today was deadly anyway. Unfortunately I had to leave around 2 for a (what turned out to be a complete waste of time) lab, but while I was there, what I saw was pretty cool. Turnout significantly bigger than I ever expected. Great atmosphere, with all the drums and the tshirts and banners and flags (the red and black ones were pretty cool), and all the different Dublin universities coming together.

    Anyway, even if you believe fees should be introduced, the protest at least served to prove that students can organise themselves somehow into a semicoherent band of raving protesters, and not even break out into a riot.

    Now what's this about the supermassive black hole protest early next year, with the non-Dublin colleges involved too?

    Also another thing - why were the DIT SU wearing shirts with the SWP fist on it? Ooh, acronymilicious.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭Brian


    mathew wrote: »
    Mac / Linux ftw...

    Give me either at this stage, honestly.. 8 days..


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 8,169 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jonathan


    Baza210 wrote: »
    Too long; didn't read.

    Don't like long-windedness.





    And I apologise for the harshness Leon, I'm using Windows and it's being irritating. I'm also tired.
    Oh.. Leon is the guy that shouted at you the other day btw. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭Brian


    That jerk!


    Sup ; )


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭manicmonoliths


    Leon - phew, so us science students can relax onto our highhorses then. Excellent. That's what I'm assuming your post is about, anyway. >.>


    The protest today was deadly anyway. Unfortunately I had to leave around 2 for a (what turned out to be a complete waste of time) lab, but while I was there, what I saw was pretty cool. Turnout significantly bigger than I ever expected. Great atmosphere, with all the drums and the tshirts and banners and flags (the red and black ones were pretty cool), and all the different Dublin universities coming together.

    Anyway, even if you believe fees should be introduced, the protest at least served to prove that students can organise themselves somehow into a semicoherent band of raving protesters, and not even break out into a riot.

    Now what's this about the supermassive black hole protest early next year, with the non-Dublin colleges involved too?

    Also another thing - why were the DIT SU wearing shirts with the SWP fist on it? Ooh, acronymilicious.

    Yeah apparently there's an all-Ireland colleges protest happening in February next year. Should be great if today was anything to go by!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Peslo


    Yeah apparently there's an all-Ireland colleges protest happening in February next year. Should be great if today was anything to go by!
    What is the protest about? fees again?
    the protest at least served to prove that students can organise themselves somehow into a semicoherent band of raving protesters, and not even break out into a riot.
    We actually got a complement off one of the more senior RTÉ correspondant's saying something to the effect of "if the students couldn't put on a decent rally about this, you'd be disappointed in the youth of the nation"

    Felt kinda chuffed... :D


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