Bayonet Identification

neil_hosey

Hi Guys,
I have a question that is really buggin me lately and cant find the answer on the internet anywhere.

I have this bayonet i found in my granda's shed and would like to identify the period it is from and who owned it (country wise ).

Im not sure if people here will be able to help but if not i hope someone can point me in the right direction!


I have a few pics here i took with my phone just now:





Hopefully someone will be able to tell me the date of this or atleast what era/war its from. It appears to be of lower quality to anything ive seen while scouring the net for similiar ones. There are no engravings and the detail, although is good, it is quite simple.


Any help appreciated

Neil


EDIT: ow i measured it against monitor (20 inch). It nearly fitted diagonally perfectly but was maybe and 1.5 - 2 inches short so something like 18 inches if that helps??

neil_hosey

ive just found an inscription on the base of the knife part on one side (if you get me:cool:) but i cant make it out

A mate of mine works with image processing and has this huge ultra-violet camera dealy that should pick it up so will let know tomoro what it says.

Dr Strange

Hi Neil,

I looks familiar. If nobody answers in the meantime I will try and find out for you but it may take a while as I am off for the next three weeks.

Any markings you can identify would be helpful.

All the best,

Preusse

SpitfireIV

Hi,

She's a British pattern 1888 bayonet for the Lee Metford, and later the Magazine Lee Enfield (Long Tom, not the SMLE). It would have been used right up to the early stages of WW1.

Have a close look at the ricasso (the area of the end of the blade, just before the cross guard), its there (if you can make it out) that you will find the makers mark ie 'SANDERSON', 'EFD', 'CHAPMAN' or 'WILKINSON', a number of proof marks and also an issue date.

neil_hosey

thanks for the replies guys!!

i think on one side it had WD

While on the other side we could made out on the hyper-spectral scanner thing there was a 92, and above that a V.

There was also a crown on one side.


guessing thats 1892 then?

cheers again
neil

SpitfireIV

WD sounds correct, stands for War Department (UK). The 'V' is most likely from 'V.R', ie Queen Victoria which is correct for that pattern bayonet.

'92 does indeed indicate '1892', the year the bayonet was issued (and most likely made) to a particular regiment. In some cases, particularly more so with these pattern bayonets if you have a good look around the pommel (the very end of the bayonet, near the release button) you may find a regiment, or unit mark.

neil_hosey

I suppose I can assume its practically worthless because of the condition its in compared to the one you showed me:eek:

I has no real sentimental value, in terms of family or country so I think I would get rid of it! maybe the local pub

then again I dont know how they'd feel about having a british bayonet on the premises

SpitfireIV

neil_hosey wrote: »

I suppose I can assume its practically worthless because of the condition its in compared to the one you showed me:eek:

I has no real sentimental value, in terms of family or country so I think I would get rid of it! maybe the local pub

then again I dont know how they'd feel about having a british bayonet on the premises

I wouldnt say its worthless, it has 'character', but some history attached to it, ie being found in your grandads shed. Could have been used in 1916? A momento from the War of Independance? Did any of your family fight in the Great War? Maybe it was a trophy or a reminder of the conflict.

If you really wanted to get rid of it, just stick it on e-bay, you might be surprised how much you'll fetch! :P

neil_hosey

Now that would make it interesting. I thought about it being part of the rising, but im fairly sure its not. My granda used to work down the port and docks. He started there as a kid moving stuff off boats. He used to always search through the drawers of chests and wardrobes to see if he found anything. He found this one time. I reckon it came from England, but I will say it to him again.


Thanks very much for the replies, they have been very helpful.

arnhem44

Hi all,just to add that its a second pattern MK1,the position of the hole in the handle would of been in different places according to the pattern and also the amount of rivets in the handle would of varied from the earlier ones

Interesting photo of the bayonet - a friend of my has one quite like it in reasonable condition.

One thing perhaps people in this forum may be able to answer: I've seen another type of bayonet, akin to a narrow, long spear head. The end of it is a ring or loop, presumably to attach it to the gun barrel. My question is, are these different bayonets from different time periods, or simply for different types of guns?

Thanks!

In an unrelated subject, please support the proposed "Blades" forum (hyperlink in my signature). I feel that this would be a great forum for subjects such as this!

SpitfireIV

Bayonets usually go through periods, ie in the 17th and early 18th century the common bayonet was a 'plug' bayonet, in that it fitted into the barrell of the gun (thus rendering the gun useless for firing).




Following on from that, the early 18th century to the mid/late 19th century socket bayonets were 'all the rage' . These slid down over the barrell, allowed the gun to be loaded and fired with the bayonet fixed, but could only be used when attached to the gun.




The next period, up to and during WW1 saw a widespead use of 'sword' bayonets, these usually combined a couple of fixing points to secure them to the gun, but importantly could be use independently from the gun, as fighting weapons. Being that they were sword bayonets they had very long blades (seems that as guns got shorter the bayonets got longer!)





WW1 thought the powers that be a few lessons, long, unwieldy bayonets, althought they might look gruesome and frightening arent much good in modern combat, especially trench warfare, so from this period on bayonets started getting shorter and simpler. The emphasis was no longer on bayonet charges or massed ranks of men facing off against each other. The new type of war was going to be quick and mobile, the bayonet was now only a last ditch weapon or to serve the soldier as a 'tool' of sorts.





Oddly, during WW2 the British revered back to the 'socket' type bayonet to fit there No4 Lee Enfield, and like its predeseccor this bayonet could only be used on the end of the gun, or, when attached to a shaft for mine probing. It was basically an oversized nail!



What I wrote there is a very general overview, there were many different patterns and variations inbetween. What your friend has sounds interesting, could you get any pics perhaps? I have seen American socket bayonets from the Civil War period that were basically like a trowel!



Or then there is the Indian Kukri bayonet, also a socket bayonet.

(wouldnt like to be on the wrong side of that one!! :eek:)

Any of those look familiar?

arnhem44

hey CB,nice tutorial,just wondering are some of these pictured in your own collection??

SpitfireIV

Hi Arnhem,

Unfortunatley none of those pictured are mine . The only bayonets I can ownership too are a c.1780's Brown Bess bayonet, a P'07 Sword bayonet and a German WW2 bayonet.

arnhem44

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Hi Arnhem,

Unfortunatley none of those pictured are mine . The only bayonets I can ownership too are a c.1780's Brown Bess bayonet, a P'07 Sword bayonet and a German WW2 bayonet.

hi CB,any chance of getting a look at the brown bess and wondered did you pick it up locally or on the net,just wondered had it any connection to the rebellion of 1798(local history interest)

SpitfireIV

arnhem44 wrote: »

hi CB,any chance of getting a look at the brown bess and wondered did you pick it up locally or on the net,just wondered had it any connection to the rebellion of 1798(local history interest)

No problem Arnhem

As you can see from the pics she aint in pristine condition, its well pitted, gone brown, but, is still solid. The wooden handle attached to it came with it, no one seems to know anything about it, so, either I have something extremely rare or a home made job! I was leaning towards the latter until another Brown Bess bayonet turned up on ebay fitted with an identical handle!! :eek:










There 'is' a 1798 connection also. The bayonet is a short land pattern bayonet from c.1770-1790. I bought it from a dealer in the North (North Irish Militaria) for £50. He informed me (cant prove this though) that he recieved this bayonet through his brother in law who, in turn recieved it from a former caretaker/groundsman from the Montalto Estate in Ballynahinch, Co. Antrim. It was in Ballynahinch that one of the great battles of '98 took place in the North, so this bayonet could have been used, or picked up after the event.

It came from an old shed on the estate, along with a number of old guns, which, apparently were dumped in a lake as they hadnt the proper documentation, the bayonet was saved luckily :cool:

So there you have it, like I said, cant prove that story, but the bayonet is certainly of the correct vintage, so, you never know .


Speaking of Brown Bess, I do some voluntary work for Carlow Military Museum, a couple of weeks back we had a man come in with a woodworm riddled, rust covered India pattern Bess which he found in the attic of an old house. I had the pleasure of cleaning her up for display and she came out a treat! I'll get some pics up soon, or start a new thread.

enfield

Just thought I would have a bit of a poser, why was the Yaghatan style blade adopted from the Arab sword type and used on bayonets? Take a look at the Chassepot bayonet on the previous page, thats the bladeshape I am talking about......whos first?

If you give the the slot to muzzel measurment and the muzzel ring dameter I will tell you the rifle the previous bayonet fits on.
Regards.
Tom

SpitfireIV

I'll have a guess, perhaps for one of the same reason why there is a slight downward curve in the Brown Bess bayonet, to allow access to the barrel with a ramrod or cleaning rod without catching your hand on a blade?

enfield

Well done Croppy boy, your are correct.
Regards.
Tom

arnhem44

I was hopeing you were going to say it was possibley used in the 98 rebellion,as there were very few weapons to go around beside pitch forks and the likes for the Irish,what was been used at the time by the british and the militia is also worth a look at,a statue stands here in town now for a around the last hundred years or so of a man called Tadgh An Asna who led a force against the British and the West Meath militia close to town here,as far as I know it was the only uprising down this end of the country(correct me if I'm wrong please),the statue has a quite impressive axe attached to it which somehow I doubt was ever the type of weapon someone of this time period would of used,sadly the statue was vandled by mindless thugs one night resulting in the axe going missing for some time and the hand that was attached to it been cracked,must make a visit to the local museum to see if there is anything related to the 1798 incident,a lovely piece CB,just wondered does the handle come out so it can be reattached to the gun or was this done for a more permanent reason,look forward to seeing the other one;)

SpitfireIV

enfield wrote: »

Well done Croppy boy, your are correct.
Regards.
Tom

What do I win??



Arnhem, the handle can indeed be removed, its not a tight fit at all, there is however a hole in the handle that lines up with the end of the slot in the bayonet socket which shows that at some point the handle was held in place by a nail or screw.

About the statue, a lot of statues, books etc etc were released prior to the 1898 commemoration, these romanticied the rebellion and reworked it a little to suit the current political climate in Ireland at the time. Thus the rebellion turned into a glorious priest led religious struggle, a catholic struggle! So a lot of these statues display the 'Croppies' as very dominant, powerful figures (which I'm sure some were) and have the impressive exagerated weapons to boot!

A 1798 pikehead sold on e-bay a few weeks back for, I believe €340!! Last year a seller had two pike heads which apparently came from a thatched roof on the Carlow/Wexford border, they fetched the €300+ mark a piece also! I'd be sceptical buying something like that, although I did bid, but as these were locally made pieces its extremely difficult to determine if it was in fact from '98. With the right equipment you could make any number of crude, replica pikeheads, age them, and sell them as being genuine! Goverment pieces on the other hand can be authenticated by various stamps, font styles etcs, home made pikes are a different kettle of fish!

In my naiive years I'd snap up anything with the year 1798 attached to it, including this knife, I bought it off e-bay, I was informed that it came from a house clearance in Waterford and 'could' be from the 1798 period. I doubth that now and thankfully I only paid a few euro's for it, but its an interesting, home made piece none the less.




Here's the 'collection' thus far. Included in the pic is a repro Brown Bess, a pattern 1796 light cavalry sabre (made sometime between 1796-1808). A Pattern 1796 infantry officers sword. A restored 1790's holster pistol (all the metal parts are original, someone had fitted them into a crude, homemade stock). The bayonet and knife already discussed and a couple of repro, but well made flintlock pistols.

arnhem44

Cheers for sharing that fine little collection with us CB,must look nice when displayed.I would have to agree with you on the statue issue,I've added a photo of the monument and he's a fine straping looking man and the weapon,he'd take some heads off with it lol:p

oncevotedff

Hi all,

I have what I take to be a Brown Bess bayonet but the only visible markings are a small cross, a very faint 2 (as ar as I can make out) and a definite 6. Underneath the number is part of a word MAR (definite) and maybe an L.

Anybody any ideas?