Preliminary Budget discussion

nesf

From the Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1014/1223921130539.html?digest=1

A flat 1% tax increase, temporary or not, is not what I hoped for and while it will help a little with the deficit in the short term it could do more damage than good imho. Removing the ceiling on PRSI was expected but fairly reasonable.

From the initial reports there's a lot of stick and little carrot with regards to taxation. Cutting services is a necessary and bitter pill to swallow but taxation changes might have negative effects long after they've been reversed.

gandalf

The flat 1% if as you say its for the short term is to be expected. However short term measures more than likely become long term and given the state of consumer nervousness might actually do more harm than good.

The PRSI ceiling change is long overdue if it happens.

If the other rumours are true about the pension relief being reduced to the lower rate then that is extremely short termist and very short sighted especially given the turmoil in the financial services industry. People are not investing in pensions and this will make it an evenmore unattractive proposition.

One thing if true I completely disagree with is the raising of the threshold for the Drugs Payment Scheme's. A lot of people who rely on this are lower income and have serious health issues, my mother who is a pensioner is one of them. With other costs like fuel/power rising significantly then this is a cost that will hit the poor and old particularly hard.

I would also be very disappointed if this budget was not used as a springboard to start to clean up the mess that the civil service/public service is in. The time has come to bring this 19th Century administrative organisation to 21st century business and employment practices.

fitz

gandalf wrote: »

The time has come to bring this 19th Century administrative organisation to 21st century business and employment practices.

QFT. Unions have their place, but are also responsible for perpetuating working terms and conditions that are just totally outdated, inefficient, and don't represent good value for the tax payer.

I've been saying if for a long time. I can't understand why there isn't a higher tax band for high earners. I think it's ridiculous that there's only no difference in the tax rate being paid by someone earning €40k and €400k. The established rates/bands are long overdue for review imo.

stevoman

gandalf wrote: »

I would also be very disappointed if this budget was not used as a springboard to start to clean up the mess that the civil service/public service is in. The time has come to bring this 19th Century administrative organisation to 21st century business and employment practices.

i hate the way the civil service is being targeted in a big way. im a civil servant and chose the career straight after school because of the employent and safety benefits and it what i always wanted to do.

for the last few years there hasnt been nothing but a peep out of the private sector or the construction industry, except from people who felt the need to slag me about how much more money they earn than me and the the civil service wage is crap. they have been making plenty of money whilst i have say here and put up with my €xxx a week take home. but as soon as the country goes belly up, we are the first ones expected to take the hit.

gandalf

stevoman wrote: »

i hate the way the civil service is being targeted in a big way. im a civil servant and chose the career straight after school because of the employent and safety benefits and it what i always wanted to do.

for the last few years there hasnt been nothing but a peep out of the private sector or the construction industry, except from people who felt the need to slag me about how much more money they earn than me and the the civil service wage is crap. they have been making plenty of money whilst i have say here and put up with my €xxx a week take home. but as soon as the country goes belly up, we are the first ones expected to take the hit.

stevoman I am basing my comments on my business experience dealing with Government Departments, Government Bodies, County Councils & Semi States. Quite frankly on a lot of occasions I am left speechless at the waste and incompetence shown. There are a lot of good people working in the Civil Service/Public Service but there are an awful lot of for want of a better word wasters.

I think there needs to be reform not only to ensure the taxpayer gets value for money (after all the public service is there to ensure services get delivered to the citizens of the country, the taxpayers) but also to make sure that those in the civil service who want to work and get ahead are given the opportunities to do so. I have seen people transferred into Sections with no relevant experience just because they were next in line to get to the grade that the position held. An absolutely crazy situation.

sovtek

fitz wrote: »

QFT. Unions have their place, but are also responsible for perpetuating working terms and conditions that are just totally outdated, inefficient, and don't represent good value for the tax payer.

They are also responsible for a living wage, holidays, pensions, days off, humane working hours....
I wonder what you mean by "outdated"...like when people used to expect to have all the things I mentioned above.
What is inefficient is the acute top down model of remunertion that unions are somewhat of a buffer against.
Lets face it...there is no such thing as value for money in this country
What is evident though...is that there is plenty of money and there should be NO REASON for us to "tighten our belts".

It's time for a Simpon's style mob people!!!!

gandalf

Oh just for clarity the people at the top of the civil service are definitely being paid too much and that includes the Taoiseach and all the Ministers, the TD's and Senators. There is no accountability from these people in the top positions, if a mistake is made that costs the taxpayers millions of euros of wasted tax revenue people do not resign or are not fired.

Back on topic, drink and ciggies are definitely going to get done as well. The ciggies I have no problems with as the more people are discouraged from smoking the better, especially with regard to Health Service resources in the next ten years or so. Drink is a contentious one and I would prefer they didn't but know they will.

They better not raise the duty on fuel though, if anything they should be reducing this duty to help stimulate the economy and alleviate the pressure on the tranportation industry.

loyatemu

cutting back on the drug payment scheme would be a disgrace, the people who are on this scheme have no choice and just because they are not on the medical card does not mean they are rich.

nhughes100

I think drink ie pints will be hit, it's been a long time since the government put it up. I think off license sales are a prime target as the difference in price between pub and off license price which is encouraging binge drinking. Ciggies - definitely, only by how much, I think anything up to a euro. I also think petrol not diesel will go up(token green gesture) Expect motor tax to go up too.

It will be interesting to see what redundancy offers will be on the table, of course completely the wrong timing as this should have been done when there was a decent chance of a civil/public servent getting another job and of course when there was money to pay them off.

Childrens allowance has to be means tested at long last and forget about that 1000 euro per child under 6 - disgrace in the first place. Expect a big clampdown on social welfare especially fraud involving both parents claiming allowances for kids as they are apparantly not living together even though they are in council accomodation.

I hope regulators will be disbanded and a thorough review of quangos, FAS and the defence forces could do with a good root out too, hopefully Garda overtime will be tackled.

May you live in interesting times.

sovtek

nhughes100 wrote: »

I think drink ie pints will be hit, it's been a long time since the government put it up. I think off license sales are a prime target as the difference in price between pub and off license price which is encouraging binge drinking. Ciggies - definitely, only by how much, I think anything up to a euro. I also think petrol not diesel will go up(token green gesture) Expect motor tax to go up too.

Then why is binge drinking not a problem in most continental European countries where drink is much cheaper.

Childrens allowance has to be means tested at long last and forget about that 1000 euro per child under 6 - disgrace in the first place. Expect a big clampdown on social welfare especially fraud involving both parents claiming allowances for kids as they are apparantly not living together even though they are in council accomodation.

There are less morally questionable cuts that could be made that aren't so important to society...like how much the IDA gets to galavant around the world buying blow jobs and dinners for rich CEO's of multinational companies.

I hope regulators will be disbanded and a thorough review of quangos, FAS and the defence forces could do with a good root out too, hopefully Garda overtime will be tackled.

You mean get rid of the regulators that were asleep at the wheel and helped cause the mess we are in and get in tougher ones that will protect us from the greed and corruption of those that caused this mess?

May you live in interesting times.

Ancient Chinese curse.

gandalf

Major infrastructural projects in the National Development Plan, such as the €4 billion Metro North line to Dublin Airport may be long-fingered or axed to save money.

If this quote is accurate from here then they are extremely short sighted and we will pay a high cost in years to come. They obviously haven't learnt from the past at all.

fitz

sovtek wrote: »

They are also responsible for a living wage, holidays, pensions, days off, humane working hours....
I wonder what you mean by "outdated"...like when people used to expect to have all the things I mentioned above.
What is inefficient is the acute top down model of remunertion that unions are somewhat of a buffer against.
Lets face it...there is no such thing as value for money in this country
What is evident though...is that there is plenty of money and there should be NO REASON for us to "tighten our belts".

It's time for a Simpon's style mob people!!!!

Unions are not solely responsible for any of the things you listed above, nor am I suggesting they're the sole cause of all the evils of the world.
But when you have unions standing in the way of employers hiring new people under more competitive contract terms, and trying to ensure that new workers get the same bloated T&C's as people who have been in their roles for 10-20 years, are we surprised that companies can't run lean business?

There's every reason for us to tighten our belts.
I have experienced poor quality service from civil service functions many times, as I'm sure others have. There needs to be serious improvements in the efficiency of the services delivered to the taxpayer, and we're perfectly right to expect them. What I find hard to swallow is money being spent wastefully, people being overpaid at the top end of the civil service, and the taxpayer being the one to bear the burden for what would be considered incompetent management if it were in the private sector. And the taxpayer isn't the only one. Certain civil servants aren't paid enough because of the lack of funds due to this mismanagement. To say we should just accept that there's no such thing as value for money to be had is just flat out wrong.

sovtek

gandalf wrote: »

If this quote is accurate from here then they are extremely short sighted and we will pay a high cost in years to come. They obviously haven't learnt from the past at all.

They won't learn because they are eat up with Chicago School ideology and will never change. Hence the call for a mob ealier.
Instead of billions for the banks that has done nothing for the crisis this project could have actually created jobs.

kluivert

I am actually afraid what budget noticements will be made today.

The policticans of this country lack common sense and knowledge on how economics work.

I feel that what ever comes out of the budget today it will be a knee jurk re-action to the times we now find ourselves in, therefore increasing sleath taxes, reducing tax reliefs and increasing duty.

Current spending will be reduced, all departments especially health and education will suffer badly.

Why is there now more administration staff than medical care staff in hospitals, surely thats why the HSE was introduced.

Schools will become overcrowed. There will be more children driven to school which is 10-20 miles away because thats the only vacancy available.

I thought we where meant be a knowledge economy, where is the investment, which must start from the bottom up and not the IT's and Uni's.

I heard a rumour that pensioners will be means tested for the medical card.

Capital Expenditure will be cut to nothing, and I agree with the poster above, that when they go to build in the future the basic costs of raw materials will have increased.

Borrowing to go through the roof like it was in the 70/80's. A bank wouldnt lead to you or me to fund everyday living. So why do governments get away with it.

I know because dole q's are getting longer. And if I hear another person saying they cant find a job I will go nuts, if every Eastern European person can find a job, there is no reason why the Irish cant either. People in this country need to come down from their high horse and get a grip on reality, that goes for our government as well who have nothing but screwed the ordinary joe soap and fed the fat cats in the world of developers.

I am getting very close to moving out of this country.

sovtek

fitz wrote: »

Unions are not solely responsible for any of the things you listed above, nor am I suggesting they're the sole cause of all the evils of the world.
But when you have unions standing in the way of employers hiring new people under more competitive contract terms, and trying to ensure that new workers get the same bloated T&C's as people who have been in their roles for 10-20 years, are we surprised that companies can't run lean business?

I could care less how lean a company is when the average ceo is making hundreds times more than their lowest paid. That is not efficient btw.
Who do you think won all those benefits for workers? You think the CEO's just gave it to us as a gift.

There's every reason for us to tighten our belts.

Not when there is easy money being wasted on the people that have caused the mess in the first place...ie the heads of banks

I have experience poor quality service from civil service functions many times, as I'm sure others have. There needs to be serious improvements in the efficiency of the services delivered to the taxpayer, and we're perfectly right to expect them. What I find hard to swallow is money being spent wastefully, people being overpaid at the top end of the civil service, and the taxpayer being the one to bear the burden for what would be considered incompetent management if it were in the private sector. And the taxpayer isn't the only one. Certain civil servants aren't paid enough because of the lack of funds due to this mismanagement. To say we should just accept that there's no such thing as value for money to be had is just flat out wrong.

I'm not saying that we should just accept it but that the private sector is no better and often times worse.
What I'm saying is that the money wasted on the banks was easily coughed up so there is obviously enough money there. It's just being spent to bail out the wrong people...particularly the ones who made this mess. If they can spend billions on the banks then they can spend billions on badly needed projects and for social spending to bail out your average Joe.

nhughes100

Then why is binge drinking not a problem in most continental European countries where drink is much cheaper.


Probably because they have a more mature attitude to alcohol, anyway I've been to France, Germany and Holland and beer is easily as expensive in the major cities as it is in Dublin.


There are less morally questionable cuts that could be made that aren't so important to society...like how much the IDA gets to galavant around the world buying blow jobs and dinners for rich CEO's of multinational companies.

What's morally questionable about means testing Childrens allowance where the couple earning 500 K a year get the same allowance as the couple earning 50K? I would have thought with your socialist agenda you'd have agreed with this. The IDA have a pretty good record on job creation, I'll leave your profanity to the mods.

You mean get rid of the regulators that were asleep at the wheel and helped cause the mess we are in and get in tougher ones that will protect us from the greed and corruption of those that caused this mess?

I mean get rid of the Gas & Electricity regulators and bring in someone with some guts - It's like a scene from the Simpsons every time they want an increase. The financial regulator has brought some good improvements like not having your credit card limit upped automatically. I don't think any financial regulator saw what was coming but I do think they missed the boat on 100% mortgaages.

Ancient Chinese curse.

Actually it's an ancient Chinese proverb

sovtek

nhughes100 wrote: »

Then why is binge drinking not a problem in most continental European countries where drink is much cheaper.


Probably because they have a more mature attitude to alcohol, anyway I've been to France, Germany and Holland and beer is easily as expensive in the major cities as it is in Dublin.

So you think that the Irish are just inferior in that respect? Or do you think that maybe their more lax drinking laws actually makes people act more responsible?
If you think it's easily as expensive as Dublin then you are drinking in the wrong places.

The IDA have a pretty good record on job creation

And how many of those jobs stay? It's a one trick pony that can't last.

I mean get rid of the Gas & Electricity regulators and bring in someone with some guts - It's like a scene from the Simpsons every time they want an increase. The financial regulator has brought some good improvements like not having your credit card limit upped automatically. I don't think any financial regulator saw what was coming but I do think they missed the boat on 100% mortgaages.

I don't disagree with you about utilities regulators.
This mess was easily seen by anyone that cared to look.



Ancient Chinese curse.

Actually it's an ancient Chinese proverb

It's also meant as a curse.

Dirk Gently

I would be surprised if we didn't see a significant increase in "green" taxes announced today. The Government needs revenue and it would be a good opportunity for the Green party to introduce some charges which otherwise would be difficult to sell to the public. I doubt FF would oppose it too much as the increases will be linked directly to the Green party. Too much tax though will stagnate the economy and make the situation worse. Though if my ciggys go up too much I'll be starting a one man revolution later on tonight. (I'll be the bloke bumming smokes off passers by outside leinster house).

Phototoxin

Until I see the minister for finance on a bicycle or on public transport dont bullsh*t to me about taxes, cutbacks and whatnot. I'm sure that the TDs salaries are adjusted to meet the oncoming economic crisis. Once they are fine they they dont give a fcuk.

4 problems in this country :

1) government is not accountable
2)almost every government is fianna fail + fruit cordial of your choice
3)one is born into politics in ireland
4) its not a true democracy unless everyone can vote for the seanid

djpbarry

Phototoxin wrote: »

its not a true democracy unless everyone can vote for the seanid

Should the ability to spell 'Seanad' be a requirement to vote?

simu

gandalf wrote: »

One thing if true I completely disagree with is the raising of the threshold for the Drugs Payment Scheme's. A lot of people who rely on this are lower income and have serious health issues, my mother who is a pensioner is one of them. With other costs like fuel/power rising significantly then this is a cost that will hit the poor and old particularly hard.

The Irish Times said it would be a "substantial" increase, whatever that means. It would certainly be very harsh on lower income people with long term illness. Very mean-hearted move if it does come about.

nesf

Phototoxin wrote: »

1) government is not accountable

The Government is accountable, we have elections. It's the people's responsibility to hold their politicians accountable for their actions and we're subject to the tyranny of the majority in this. The people reap what they sow in this.

nesf

sovtek wrote: »

They are also responsible for a living wage, holidays, pensions, days off, humane working hours....

That doesn't mean that they are still needed. Public sector unions being allowed to negotiate wage agreements only exist to skew redistribution of income from taxes to a small subset of the population who work in the public sector. They hold enormous power because of the services their members provide and this combination of power and ability to negotiate wage agreements mean is in my view something that needs to be tackled and reformed. If Gardaí and the Army don't have unions I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to doctors, teachers and the rank and file of the public/civil service.

nhughes100

nesf wrote: »

That doesn't mean that they are still needed. Public sector unions being allowed to negotiate wage agreements only exist to skew redistribution of income from taxes to a small subset of the population who work in the public sector. They hold enormous power because of the services their members provide and this combination of power and ability to negotiate wage agreements mean is in my view something that needs to be tackled and reformed. If Gardaí and the Army don't have unions I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to doctors, teachers and the rank and file of the public/civil service.

The army have a union(PDForra) and the Gardai have two that I know of, AGSI for Sergeants and above and another for Rank and file Gardai. You may be confusing this with a right to strike, not to be confused with the blue flu.

nhughes100

So you think that the Irish are just inferior in that respect? Or do you think that maybe their more lax drinking laws actually makes people act more responsible?
If you think it's easily as expensive as Dublin then you are drinking in the wrong places.

Yes I do think Irish people are inferior in that respect, we have on the whole an incredible attitude to alcohol, drink is involved in practically every aspect of society. We don't have lax drink laws,(24 hour drinking for example) we have poor enforcement of laws.


And how many of those jobs stay? It's a one trick pony that can't last.

I dunno, Intel, Financial services centre, google, Dell, HP, IBM etc etc maybe? One trick pony - educated work force, English speaking, availability of Labour, low corperate tax, large grants available for training, stable government - not a bad trick?


I don't disagree with you about utilities regulators.
This mess was easily seen by anyone that cared to look.

Really, point me out to your post where you predicted the collapse of the world banking system and stock markets.

Ancient Chinese curse.



It's also meant as a curse.

Yada yada yada

gandalf

djpbarry wrote: »

Should the ability to spell 'Seanad' be a requirement to vote?

Maybe the ability to quote the correct person you are correcting should be as well :rolleyes:

I find people who resort to correcting peoples spelling to be clutching at straws in their arguments as well. I think we all understood Phototoxins point.

fitz

fitz wrote: »

I've been saying if for a long time. I can't understand why there isn't a higher tax band for high earners. I think it's ridiculous that there's only no difference in the tax rate being paid by someone earning €40k and €400k. The established rates/bands are long overdue for review imo.

In ideal circumstances,there'd be a 35% rate where the 40% rate now starts and a 45% rate above 100K

I wouldn't tinker much more than that as you harm incentive.
In my belief there has to be an incentive to better yourself.It can't all be left to the black economy like it was in the 80's.

On a further note-One can't help but be angry with the utter lack of initiative with this government over the last 10 years.
they could have done that with taxes [but can't for the moment] and they could have been thrifty with the spending.

Instead they went doo lally because it was easy.

For instance,they could have set up a work permit scheme for Eastern Europeans instead of granting them free gratis to almost everything.
With that they could have let in as many as needed and more but gave them the incentive to return home at times like these.
If there are even 15,000 of these on the dole,you can be guaranteed that they are costing circa €200 a week including the cost of associated benefits-thats €150 million in a year that could go on social housing for instance and projects that add wealth to the Economy rather than drain it away to Poland and elsewhere.
We are not and never can be of the size of the countries that us Irish went to work in so the it's a bit rich to have limits arguments doesn't apply.

Thats just one example.

SeanW

I've heard a lot about the bloated upper administration levels in the HSE - I would certainly hope that HSE structure gets a serious examination and some redirection of resources to the front line.

Whatever happens, capital spending must not be slowed down - AFAIK a lot of primary schools are still relying on famine era kips and prefabs and there should be no let up in attempts to put this right.
Transport is also another area where Ireland is still struggling to catch up to the 21st century - Dublin's planning is still being mismanaged, and for example it's public transport network is still dramatically behind those of other modern European capitals and dramatically behind what is required.
Parts of the national primary road network are still a shambles, including the N4 and N5 around where I live, and these problems need to be addressed - regardless of cost there should be no slowdown in investment in all kinds of transport.
As for broadband, we're still somewhat behind there too, and though I personally have a nice relatively stable ADSL line despite living in the sticks - not everyone is as fortunate. Our deficiencies in fixed broadband access needs to be examined.

Finally, new and raised taxes should be kept to a minimum as they will push inflation higher and higher. It was inflationary policies by FF governments (irresponsible tax cuts during the real boom years, followed by letting property prices skyrocket to crazy levels) that paved the way for much of the problems we now face. This budget should reduce the costs that people and businesses face, or if that is not possible, keep any increases to a minimum and provide something for it.

rubadub

nhughes100 wrote: »

Yes I do think Irish people are inferior in that respect, we have on the whole an incredible attitude to alcohol,

We have incredible laws on alcohol. Licensing hours date back to world wars to help the effort of building weaponry, the war is over, being a neutral country they should never have been in place. The more recent early closing of offlicences is a step backwards.

nhughes100 wrote: »

We don't have lax drink laws,(24 hour drinking for example) we have poor enforcement of laws.

Not lax in the slightest. The lawmakers still work on the presumption everybody works a nice 9-5job, so shift workers cannot enjoy a pint after work, they cannot even buy a bottle of wine to go home with for dinner. In countries with lax laws there are less problems.

Treat people like kids and they act like kids.

SeanW

rubadub wrote: »

Treat people like kids and they act like kids.

Quite true: and then you have the worst scenario: otherwise pointless draconian regulations that appear to be self-justifying :mad:

nhughes100

rubadub wrote: »

We have incredible laws on alcohol. Licensing hours date back to world wars to help the effort of building weaponry, the war is over, being a neutral country they should never have been in place. The more recent early closing of offlicences is a step backwards.


Not lax in the slightest. The lawmakers still work on the presumption everybody works a nice 9-5job, so shift workers cannot enjoy a pint after work, they cannot even buy a bottle of wine to go home with for dinner. In countries with lax laws there are less problems.

Treat people like kids and they act like kids.

Michael Mc Dowell extended the opening hours and swiftly had to revoke them thanks to public order nonsense. The off-license laws were only change a couple of months ago so I don't know where you get the laws haven't changed for ages line. People have only themselves to blame, Irish people have a stupid attitude towards alcohol and I like a drink myself but can't say it bothers me that I can't go for a pint after work(thanks to my car) and if you don't open a bottle of wine, you'll find it will keep for a good while(years in fact).

This is turning into a different thread but when Irish people grow up a bit and stop persuing getting plastered at the wkend as the ultimate goal in life then we might get some lax laws. Britain has extremely lax laws on drink and they have savage alcohol problems.