Where the Hell do I start??? I'm loosing a Fortune!!!

Twiggy69

Hello all you well informed crew,
I would like your views on the following scenario. Currently, my household is burning 1000litres of Kerosene every 6 – 8 weeks, that’s over 7 to 8 months each year (less during “summer”) I have decided to do something about it and have learned a lot from this Forum. What I propose to do is to outline my current situation and see where you folk might make cost & energy -efficient suggestions.

I live in a timberframe dormer bungalow, Ground Floor 2,000sq ft, First Floor 900sq ft. The house was built in 1992. Essentially, a 60ft x 30ft rectangle. It has a 20ft X 10ft Sun Room - block/brick construction added to side of house (No insulation between block & Brick)

Timber Frame – Supplied by Century. 100mm internal leaf wall, with fibreglass insulation behind a ½” plaster slab. 2” air gap cavity to 4” solid block outer leaf, blockwork render plastered. The soffit is vented, a 2 inch strip of mesh wire running both sides of the house, 60 ft long. This “venting” was designed to allow the timber to breathe thereby avoiding rot, but it has the result of making the walls & ceiling areas affected cold. The ceilings have 4” of fibreglass fitted throughout.

Heating system Kerosene Myson Internal Boiler – 100,000 BTU output. This feeds a combination of single & double rads – 26 in total. Usually only use 12, heating the rooms in use. All rads fitted with Myson Thermostatic Rad valves. Copper piping throughout lagged with “grey” foam tubing. All heating and hot water pipes run through “vented” attic space. It can take several minutes for hot water to come through to taps, even in Main Bathroom ( a 5ft run)which is directly under the cylinder which is located on First floor??? Taps on First Floor take a long time to get hot water also.(16ft run approx)
There are two “coffin” water tanks and small tank for heating in attic above ceiling of First floor.

Open Fireplace raised 9” over floor level in Sitting Room/Dining room – Floor Area – 450sq ft. This room has a 9” drop to a suspended timber floor on floor joists. Again this is vented externally to avoid rot to floor joists. This sitting room is constantly” draughty”, as there is a massive draw from the chimney.

Joinery Teak double glazed throughout. 2 External doors, 2 Double French Doors & 10 windows. 4 large Velux roof lights upstairs
The Sun Lounge has one of the Double French doors and 3 windows measuring 8ft wide x 4ft High Unfortunately, for all joinery , doors & windows the glazed panels only have the narrow ¼” gap between the panes, the units I see now are closer to ¾”!

Recent work
As a couple of rads leaked in January, I had them replaced. I was also advised to fit a foam lagged larger cylinder which I did.

We did not need the heat on over the summer, so when we turned it on we noticed every other pair of rads were not working. I called a plumber who immediately diagnosed that the TRV’s were not working on those non working rads, oh and by the way I need to replace my boiler!!! This was without him testing it or anything??? He recommended an external “more efficient” unit, but was unable to give me a cost. I suggested that he flush out the rads when he was replacing the rad valves, but he said he would do that when he was replacing the boiler!

We have had a problem of silt building up in the rads in the past, so when we replaced the rads in January, I got the plumber to drain down the system completely, thereby getting rid of some if not all of the sludge. He was also to put in the chemical into the system to avoid the future build up of silt.

At this stage, I don’t know what to do???

• Should I just go with the plumber’s advice and fit another oil boiler, or should I look at solar & Wood pellet stove in sitting room, perhaps heating maybe 10 rads off it? This would also solve the draught problem from the chimney
• Should I look at beefing up my insulation, perhaps under the vented floor in Sitting/ Dining room, close off some of the vented soffet, insulate my roof/attic???
• Should I look at insulating the gap between the timberframe inner leaf and external block outer leaf?
• Should I look at replacing the glazing panels in my doors & windows for wider units ( the teak frames are still perfect)
• Should I have a thermal audit done on the house to see where I am loosing the heat?

Any helpful advice is much appreciated before I go off spending a wad of cash with little resultant benefits.

Regards,

T

311

Is your ground floor solid or raised timber?

Twiggy69

Hello 311,
Of the 2000 sq ft footprint, the Sitting/Dining room area (approx 500ft) is the only vented floor area, the remaining 1500 sq ft is concrete. All pipework runs through the internal walls,and vented attic. None of the heating or hot water pipes run under the concrete floors.

RKQ

Twiggy69 wrote: »

I live in a timberframe dormer bungalow, . It has a 20ft X 10ft Sun Room - block/brick construction added to side of house (No insulation between block & Brick) Consider dry-lining - wouldn't pump insulation into a brick skin wall. Clay Brick is usually very porous and soaks water like a sponge - keep the cavity to prevent water penetration.

Open Fireplace raised 9” over floor level in Sitting Room/Dining room – Floor Area – 450sq ft. This room has a 9” drop to a suspended timber floor on floor joists. Consided drilling a new wall vent beside the chimney, to feed the fire and cut down on draught across the room. Is this timber floor insulated?T

• Should I just go with the plumber’s advice and fit another oil boiler, or should I look at solar &
Wood pellet stove in sitting room, perhaps heating maybe 10 rads off it? No - investigate heat loss first. The boiler is less effient thans today equivalent but if its still working then spend your money on insulation. Was insulation installed between the joists of the timber floor?

• Should I look at beefing up my insulation, perhaps under the vented floor in Sitting/ Dining room, close off some of the vented soffet, insulate my roof/attic??? Yes but don't close off vented soffit.

• Should I look at insulating the gap between the timberframe inner leaf and external block outer leaf? No way - pointless & could cause problems. Maintain the air cavity

• Should I look at replacing the glazing panels in my doors & windows for wider units ( the teak frames are still perfect) no, Double glazed external is fine, not sure a bigger gap will justify the expense of replacement.

• Should I have a thermal audit done on the house to see where I am loosing the heat? Possibly, with a thermal imaging camera, but you seem to have answered alot of your own queries - insulate and draught seal.

311

You've said yourself the sitting room is draughty ,do you know if the floor is insulated with fibreglass ?
If the circulation is too strong ,your heat might be leaving the room to quickly.

I install heating systems myself ,but on a house your size ,its essential to keep the heat in as best you can. Get a second opinion on what you need.

Twiggy69

Wow RKQ,
You covered a lot of items there for me, many,many thanks. So, from what you suggest, insulation & draught-proffing & a heat audit is the way froward, certainly less expensive than replacing my boiler & double glazed units!

In answer to your question, yes, the floor is insulated, with (from memory) 6" of fibreglass between the floor joists on a fine mesh netting to stop it falling through and at the same time allowing the timbers to breath.

The floor itself is T&G chipboard, which I could replace, (I'm considering replacing the carpet with solid timber flooring soon anyway)

Any suggestions what type of insulation to use for between the floor joists, I see Kingspan do a dense panel ( looks like white polystyrene) which may be suitable. Also any thoughts on insulation recommendations for ceiling/ attic area especially the attic area exposed to vented soffit???

Thanks again,

Regards,

T

311

Fibreglass is always the best option ,your guaranteed no leaks.

Twiggy69

Thanks 311,
I'm surprised to hear that fiberglass is the best insulation option, as shortly after building my place, I read Rockwool was the way to go. Then as I said, these panels of foam became common, I believe used mostly insulating concrete floors, but if I thought it would help solve my soaring heating costs, I would look at it.

What thichness would you recommend for under a timber floor using floor joists?

What thickness would you recommend on ceiling/wall areas facing vented soffitt?

Again, thanks for the advice.

Regards,

T

311

Hey ,when I say fibreglass I'm referring to rockwool and the other rolled insulations.

Some of the best insulated homes I've been in are done in rockwool and fibreglass. I've been in some really badly insulated homes and they were done in Kingspan.

Twiggy69

Thanks 311,
And I thought those "solid" insulation panels would be the answer to my insulation needs. The search continues...

JamesM

I don't think that you have mentioned servicing the boiler. Even with kerosene you will build up a lot of deposit in a year if you are using 1000 litres every 2 months. Dirt on the sides of the boiler insulate the internal walls and cut down the transfer of heat to the water. Most of the heat goes out the flue. That's a good boiler - make sure that it is clean and has all the baffles in place. Those baffles tend to burn out if the boiler is not serviced regularly. Then the heat really disappears out the flue.
Jim.

Twiggy69

Thanks JamesM,
I did have it done by a very thorough guy some time back. Sure enough the baffles had fallen out of position, but he sorted it. It might be time to have him out again!

I am still confused about the rads, I'll see if replacing the TRV's help.
I can't for the life of me understand where all the sludge is coming from in the rads, it's pure black, and if you let it dry, you end up with fine dust/metal filings???

Is this the breakdown of some protective coat on the inside of the rads, if so am I going to be replacing a succession of rads, as one after another fail?

When I replace the TRV's am I as well to drain down the entire system and flush out all the rads, (13 Double rads) ???

Should I then put that chemical in to slow the build up of that sludge?

Many thanks again,

T

311

Sludge is basically caused by fresh water entering the heating system constantly.

When fresh water is heated up ,the oxygen attacks the metal. Normally this isn't a problem because you have the same water in a heating system.
So all the oxygen is gone after the first few heating cycles.

1. Check and see if your heating system is pitching ,this is when there is water coming from the vent pipe in the attic. This is not too bad ,as fresh water isn't getting in too much.

OR

2. You have a leak somewhere ,tie your ballcock up on the expansion tank and see if the water level drops.

Both the above will help you get a better idea of whats going on.

Sludge ,if left untreated will enventually destroy your rads.

JamesM

I knew someone would give a good answer
It can also be caused when copper and old gun-barrel pipes are mixed in a system.
Jim.

Twiggy69

Spot on 311,

The system has been "pitching" down through the years, pointed it out to several plumbers, but the problem persists...

There also seemed to be a lot of "air" in the rads over the years, so one plumber fitted "air bottles"!

Next question is, how do you stop "pitching" before I have to replace 24 rads???

I can't believe solving one problem, will solve another. Sort out the "pitching" solves the new water entering the system thereby solves my persistent sludge/ rad corrosion problem. Probably, the build up of that sludge is the cause of my TRV's failing also!

Many thanks,

T

311

Twiggy69 wrote: »

Spot on 311,

The system has been "pitching" down through the years, pointed it out to several plumbers, but the problem persists...

There also seemed to be a lot of "air" in the rads over the years, so one plumber fitted "air bottles"!

Next question is, how do you stop "pitching" before I have to replace 24 rads???

I can't believe solving one problem, will solve another. Sort out the "pitching" solves the new water entering the system thereby solves my persistent sludge/ rad corrosion problem. Probably, the build up of that sludge is the cause of my TRV's failing also!

Many thanks,

T

I'm litterally in the door ,sorry for the delay.

There are several things you can do to a heating system to stop it pitching. The most common problem that causes pitching ,is the cold feed on the heating system is placed wrongly.
A good plumber would know how to sort it out for you ,it really depends on where the pump is and the way the pipe was layed out. That would determine what needs to be done.

If I was you ,I'd do the following or aim to sort things out along these lines,

For starters ,I'd turn the pump down to two or less. Get desludger into the heating system Sentinel X400. Let that work in the system for a week or so.
You will probably need about two doses for a system of your size ,overdosing with X400 doesn't do any harm.

Only when you start to see improvements with your current system ,should you start thinking about changing things. If your system is dirty now ,a new boiler will only end up the same way fairly soon.

It sounds like you've been unfortunate with the people you've called out. Maybe with a bit more knowledge about things ,you might get more done about it.

EDIT : **** Be careful by the way with your current system and any cleaning products. Sometimes if a system is badly corroded ,certain cleaning products can't be used ****

Twiggy69

311, many thanks,
No need to apologise for "the delay" in getting back to me I've only been waiting since 1992, and have had a fleet of so called "experts" give their professional and frequently costly views on solutions to my heating problems, but my problems still persist! Any man that is coming in from work @ 8p.m. had probably had enough to deal with for one day!

Your frank, helpful and courteous assistance has been much appreciated by myself, so too the viewpoints of other knowledgeable contributors to this thread.

I have contacted a trusted heating engineer to do a thorough service & assessment of the current boiler. He is the man that found the "fallen" baffles in the past & put them right. My next step is to take your advice re additive.

I am wondering would it be prudent to remove the double rads and flush them out with cold water to remove the sludge content when we are replacing the TRV's?

Is there a case to be made to drain the entire system down to further reduce the level of sludge, and flush each rad/pair of rads, or do you feel the double dose of additive should do the trick?

At this stage I am looking for definite changes which are going to give me a heating system that is close to optimum for the future, so if it requires time & effort, I am prepared to go with that.

I look forward to hearing advice at contributors convenience, as I said I've had several "false dawns" with this heating system to date.



Many thanks,

T

311

Taking radiators down and blasting the dirt out of them always works.
It's a dirty job though and you're bound to get a stain or two:(.

If you can get someone to flush the rads for you ,that would definetly help. But it's not a pleasant job for anyone to do or get done.

luckat

I just had someone come to look at my rads. I thought they'd be full of sludge (I'm 20 years in the house, and they didn't seem to be responding to bleeding, some seemed to be warm at the top and cool at the bottom, etc).

He got me to turn up the heating full blast, and found that some rads needed bleeding, which he did, and others were fine.

He said that if there was sludge, there would be cool spots on blazing-hot radiators, because the sludge is like a gel that moves around from one radiator to another.

He's replacing (ad my request) all of the 'thermostatic valves', which never worked properly.

He could have told me I needed all the radiators blasted out - after all, the youngest of them are 19 years old - but he didn't.

I asked him about putting foil behind them, and he said that because they were *not* convection radiators, this would just be a gimmick and not work properly.

It turned out that I had two problems: 1) I was running the rads at the lowest heat possible, and 2) some of the rads needed bleeding.

I asked him about solar panels, and he said that in his opinion the technology wasn't ready for use yet - leave it to the rich types who can afford to be guinea pigs.

I asked him about roof insulation and he said that properly done, it's the best thing you can get. (This was no advantage to him; I've got someone else quoting me for it.)

I hope this comparable experience is some use to you.

Twiggy69

311 wrote: »

Taking radiators down and blasting the dirt out of them always works.
It's a dirty job though and you're bound to get a stain or two:(.

If you can get someone to flush the rads for you ,that would definitely help. But it's not a pleasant job for anyone to do or get done.

@ 311 - You use the terms blast & flush. Is there a difference and could you explain to a layman how best to do it.

What I have done in the past it to close the valves at either end of a rad, undo one valve and let the contents of the rad (black water & sludge) run into a basin/s. When empty, remove rad off wall and move outdoors. Then connect my garden hose to one end and let the water flow until it runs fairly clear!

If there is a more efficient system, even one that does not involve removing the rad off the wall, I'd love to hear about it ! I was wondering if there was a way of connecting a hose with a similar sized fitting to the TRV end after the rad had emptied, then open valve and let the sludge run out the hose until it runs clear.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Regards,

T

311

By blast ,I mean using mains pressure or pumped water. By flush I mean ,draining the system down and then one by one ,take all the rads outside.

Turning the rads upside down ,when you connect a hose is the best way to clean them. Having the valves up at hand level.

Hy ho hy ho ,it's off to work I go.:pac:

Twiggy69

Thanks 311,a full drain of the system is on the cards then... that should be fun!

Regards,

T