Educate Together, opinions?

Nevyn

So you daughters school doesn' do a pray to start and end the day, grace before and after lunch, or any religious art projects or religious themed homework ?

If you have issues with the disapline at your son's school have you brought it up at a board of management meeting ?

Can not enough supports for his dyslexia not be put in place in his current school ?

mountainyman

Talliesin wrote: »

ET's crap in a lot of ways, but at least some people are trying to do something. And some of them are working class, despite how thinking they are all sheep might ease your bourgeois self-satisfaction.

Why not try letting someone mention Educate Together without engaging in yet another anti-Working Class rant.

That's no what I meant but I congratulate you for making your point so forcefully.

babyboom

Dyslexia is not considered a learning disability by the Dept of Ed so he is only entitled to Learning Support, not resource teaching and he only gets learning support if he scores less than 13% at the end of year tests. He has a very severe form of dyslexia and the school are just getting nowhere with him, although they tell me they're making progress, I know from his work at home that he is lost. Sorry for going off topic, just answering your question.

In my daughter's school it really depends on the teacher whether they say a prayer in the morning or not but really religion is not "shoved down their throats" as seems to be the impression out there.

bombjack2

Thanks for all the replies,

Some very useful information

Will be paying the school a visit over the next couple of days, hopefully its not too late to register as there seems to be a big demand for ET at the moment.

Dades

bombjack2 wrote: »

Will be paying the school a visit over the next couple of days, hopefully its not too late to register as there seems to be a big demand for ET at the moment.

I called them a few weeks back to ask when should I be putting my 7 week old daughter's name down - and was told immediately!

That's not to say you'll definitely have trouble. Make sure you call in and good luck.

di11on

mountainyman wrote: »

Yeah getting the religious out of health care has worked a treat!!!

The state should not be dependent on religious orders to provide and/or subsidise essential public services. If this is not the case, something is terribly wrong. People should have the choice to have an education with a religious ethos, but it is not the job of the state to provide it. The state has a resposibility to provide public services. Dependence on religious orders for funding in key public services is a ridiculous scenario and no civilised country should be in this position.

mountainyman wrote: »

Its purpose in the Republic is to enable middle class parents to send their kids to a school other than the local school.

This is a lie. In fact, it is the exact opposite in my case. I am not catholic. I want my children to go to the local state run national school. If it happened that places were over subscribed, my children would be denied a place because of their religion. This is in the state run school. It's outright descrimination.

mountainyman wrote: »

I am reporting this post as it is a lie. Priests do not tell children they will go to hell unless they are baptised.

I was educated in our local national school. I was told this.

larbis

I have recently been involved in the set up of an ET school. The local primary schools in my area are over subscribed I couldn't even get my son into one as he is not christened. One of the local C of I schools wouldn't even let me register

I thought that an ET school would be great, provide diversity of education where I live and I love the ethos. I was gobsmacked when someone told me recently that ET schools are seen as snobby and exclusive as my experience has been the complete opposite.

As a non religious, lone parent family ET were the only ones who welcomed us with open arms and never made me feel judged..

I don't understand all this anti-ET stuff at all and it makes me wonder who the judgemental ones really are

Talliesin

mountainyman wrote: »

That's no what I meant but I congratulate you for making your point so forcefully.

Well, what do you mean. This is the third anti-Working Class rant of yours I've seen when ET has come up.

stovelid

mountainyman wrote: »

Its purpose in the Republic is to enable middle class parents to send their kids to a school other than the local school.

I'm from a so called working class background and I'm currently involved in an ET start-up group. As somebody else has pointed out, this is the kind of sh*te you get from people who expect people from particular backgrounds to roll over and desist with their airs and graces. The people involved in the start-up group are from a very mixed class background, if you feel the need to categorize people in that way.

We have the right to choose an education for our children that does not involve the church. Just as I respect the wishes of parents who want their children to have a catholic eduction. And as for priests, nuns and brothers imparting scare tales about hell, baptism, and what not: I went to school in the 80s and this was most definitely the case.

Son of Jack

Dear Larbis,

I have read your posts over the past year about the establishment of an ET school in Greystones. I am very glad to hear that you and your son are happy with the education received in the new ET. Congratulations and well done.

I have always supported both the establishment of the new ET and Gaelscoil in the area, as you said, the schools in the locality were over subscribed. Also I support diversity.

Up to this point your posts were always informative and fair. However I must take issue with what you have said on this thread as our experience has been very different.

- My children are not baptised. When we applied to enrol them in one of the Catholic primary schools we were asked to provide either a baptismal cert OR a birth cert. No hardship, they had certainly been born and registered!

- ET, as admirable as their ethos is, do not have the monopoly on being child centred or inclusive. Surely a school that was not child centred would be an anomaly.

In my children's time in school our decision not to have them baptised has never been an issue.

The school is inclusive. They are at school with children of different religions and none, children from different family backgrounds and ethic origins.

- It is only a small point but there is only one C of I school in Greystones. The other one is in Delgany. Both are small schools and are always over subscribed and difficult to get into. Both I know are very civilised, inclusive and child centered environments.

Other posters, who in support of ET schools throw mud at the 'religious' ones do no service to what they claim is the 'better way'!

To the OP good luck in your decision. An earlier poster put it well when they said it depends on the individual school. Schools can be good, bad or indifferent and this does not necessarily depend on their ethos or their patron. What would suit you might not suit another! Each to their own!

what2do

An interesting point I heard recently about ET schools is that most are so new that they are still finding their feet and are so busy being "inclusive" that sometimes the eduacation can suffer??

This is just an opinion I heard and was interested what people think?

Nevyn

Start up school alwasy have teething problems no matter who is thier patron.

Son of Jack

From what I hear of ET, Greystones ... it's all good!

stovelid

what2do wrote: »

An interesting point I heard recently about ET schools is that most are so new that they are still finding their feet and are so busy being "inclusive" that sometimes the eduacation can suffer??

So, every other primary school in the country is a shining centre of excellence purely by dint of not having to waste time on being inclusive?

ArthurDent

mountainyman wrote: »

In Northern Ireland ET has a laudable goal; to break down divisions between communities.

Its purpose in the Republic is to enable middle class parents to send their kids to a school other than the local school.

It is about snobbery an elitism.

And yet Educate Together has by percentage more schools with Disadvantaged status that any patron body

Also looking at where the new Educate Together schools opened last year -
Belmayne- Dublin 13 Educate Together National School
Carlow Educate Together National School
Carrigaline Educate Together National School
Aston Gate Educate Together National School (Drogheda North)
Greystones Educate Together National School
Lucan/ Clonburris Educate Together National School
Maynooth Educate Together National School
Midleton Educate Together National School
Skerries Educate Together National School
South Galway Educate Together National School (Kilcolgan- Clarinbridge)
Thornleigh Educate Together National School (Swords)
Wexford Educate Together National School

D'ya really reckon they're all bastions of middle class?

To the OP truthfully asking here for an opinion on ET schools won't tell you anything about the particular ET school you could send your child to - it'll attract the usual pro/anti arguments . Go and visit the school - talk to people in your area, see the principal. There are some great ET schools, there are some that are not so good - just like any type of school.

ArthurDent

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm firmly of the belief that the nation's schools should be completely free of religion so if there's an educate together, or preferably a fully secular, school available for my daughter in 4/5 years time she'll be going there.

It's an absolute disgrace that in a 'developed' country we still leave education so largely under the control of religious orders.

just wondering what would fully secular mean - no discussion of any religions, no mention of any of the cultural aspects of religion that are prevalent in most peoples lives (whether they are religious or not) = no celebration of christmas, easter, divali, eid or whatever your'e having yourself...:)

I totally support the removal of teaching ANY religious doctrine as truth but am very happy to have my kids told about different faiths and reaaly don't see how religion can be removed totally as it is culturally v improtant to most people

I went to the very first ET School, DSP, I have to say it was fantastic, we learned about, and celebrated, all kinds of religion, which broadened our minds, I went to after school classes for catholic studies.

I just think it's a great way to teach kids, it's very group orientated, no rows of tables, and they learn things that aren't on the curriculum which is great, it also allows children to learn to their own ability, so that if your child is more advanced, they're not held back, and if your child needs more help, they are not left behind.

I would be all for it!

Son of Jack

Whoopsadaisydoodles, great you had such a good experience at school. I did too and I went to a single sex school run by a religious order.

Group work, encouraging the bright children and supporting the less academic all appear to be part of the New Curriculum which operates in schools up and down the country, regardless of patron.

Cantab.

Educate together school = definite no-no in my opinion. My relationship with God is the most important relationship in my life. I want my children to experience the same.

AFAIC, educate together schools (well-meaning as they are), are breeding grounds for moral and religious relativism.

My experience with Catholic schooling has been wholly positive.

deisemum

Deleted User wrote: »

I just think it's a great way to teach kids, it's very group orientated, no rows of tables, and they learn things that aren't on the curriculum which is great, it also allows children to learn to their own ability, so that if your child is more advanced, they're not held back, and if your child needs more help, they are not left behind.

I would be all for it!

That's the same sort of experience my children have at their local catholic school. Most of the teachers do a lot of extra things that aren't on the curriculum and even though it's a catholic school they are taught a bit about other religions, possibly not quite as much as in a ET school.

It's great too that we don't have to fundraise apart for the christmas school raffle and the proceeds are used to pay for coaches to all the different sporting and outings they go on.

We only have to pay €7.50 contribution to cover arts and crafts and photocopying. The school has exceptional facilities and it's difficult to get a place.

stovelid

Cantab. wrote: »

AFAIC, educate together schools (well-meaning as they are), are breeding grounds for moral and religious relativism.

As regards the religious relativism, that's what some parents -including myself - want, although the terms breeding grounds and well meaning only serve to highlight your own patronization and the repugnance you feel about ET.

As for moral relativism: I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean morals have to be synonymous with catholicism?

Cantab. wrote: »

Educate together school = definite no-no in my opinion. My relationship with God is the most important relationship in my life. I want my children to experience the same.
.

Your call and more power to you. Every parent has the right to educate their children as they see fit. And respect the views of others.

JC 2K3

ArthurDent wrote: »

just wondering what would fully secular mean - no discussion of any religions, no mention of any of the cultural aspects of religion that are prevalent in most peoples lives (whether they are religious or not) = no celebration of christmas, easter, divali, eid or whatever your'e having yourself...:)

Christmas and Easter could be celebrated in a secular way, they're cultural holidays and it could be explained to the children that they are derived from Christianity without having to discuss it in any great detail.

ArthurDent wrote: »

I totally support the removal of teaching ANY religious doctrine as truth but am very happy to have my kids told about different faiths and reaaly don't see how religion can be removed totally as it is culturally v improtant to most people

Personally I'm uncomfortable with kids so young being taught anything about religion. They're far too young to comprehend such abstract concepts or to think about such things in any kind of meaningful manner, and I believe it to be impossible to even begin teaching or discussing the subject properly without the pupil being completely aware of what exactly they're learning about. I would support the teaching of common morality and about justice, which I believe is part of the ET programme, but would not support the teaching of anything to do with theism until the child is older and more able to understand exactly what they're learning about.

ArthurDent

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Christmas and Easter could be celebrated in a secular way, they're cultural holidays and it could be explained to the children that they are derived from Christianity without having to discuss it in any great detail.


Personally I'm uncomfortable with kids so young being taught anything about religion. They're far too young to comprehend such abstract concepts or to think about such things in any kind of meaningful manner, and I believe it to be impossible to even begin teaching or discussing the subject properly without the pupil being completely aware of what exactly they're learning about. I would support the teaching of common morality and about justice, which I believe is part of the ET programme, but would not support the teaching of anything to do with theism until the child is older and more able to understand exactly what they're learning about.

Re discussion of thesim - I've two kids going through primary education at moment in an ET school - the faith systems/belief strand of the ethical core curriculum treats all faiths (and belief systems including atheism/humanism) in the same way - information is passed on in an age appropriate way - for example Eid /Ramadan/Rosh Hashanna were discussed recently in terms of "people of muslim faith / jewish faith believe......" I haven't noticed that either of my kids at 8 and 10 are "far too young to comprehend such abstract concepts or to think about such things in any kind of meaningful manner" - they can do a pretty mean run down of the major tennants of most faiths and my 8 year old can do a pretty good rationalisation of how even though Santa is said to bring everyone toys that this really only applies to those in culturally "christian" countries and knows that his muslim buddy gets pesents at Eid instead etc...

ArthurDent

Cantab. wrote: »

Educate together school = definite no-no in my opinion. My relationship with God is the most important relationship in my life. I want my children to experience the same.

AFAIC, educate together schools (well-meaning as they are), are breeding grounds for moral and religious relativism.

My experience with Catholic schooling has been wholly positive.

You might be surprised to find out that quite a lot of parents who send their kids to ET schools are also very keen to bring their children up with a strong faith be that catholic, muslim,COI etc but they feel that is their responsibility and that of their priest/imam/rabbi etc and not the schools.

stovelid

JC 2K3 wrote: »

They're far too young to comprehend such abstract concepts or to think about such things in any kind of meaningful manner

Don't know about you but I got some pretty heavy, and extremely abstract concepts, such as Transubstantiation, and the Holy Trinity laid on me as an 7 year old...

Nevyn

stovelid wrote: »

Don't know about you but I got some pretty heavy, and extremely abstract concepts, such as Transubstantiation, and the Holy Trinity laid on me as an 7 year old...

And the different types of sins, the white lies, deadly sins and mortalers ect.
and then reconsilation.

JC 2K3

ArthurDent wrote: »

I haven't noticed that either of my kids at 8 and 10 are "far too young to comprehend such abstract concepts or to think about such things in any kind of meaningful manner" - they can do a pretty mean run down of the major tennants of most faiths and my 8 year old can do a pretty good rationalisation of how even though Santa is said to bring everyone toys that this really only applies to those in culturally "christian" countries and knows that his muslim buddy gets pesents at Eid instead etc...

Is it just cultural differences that they're taught about then? I wouldn't have a problem with that, but then why call it specifically "religion"?

What I would fundamentally disagree with would be teaching, or implying by the manner of such teaching, that God is a simple and wholly acceptable concept, that belief in God is a simple choice, something that one can just choose to believe in if they see fit. I think glossing over how complex and deep a question the matter of a God existing is, or even what a God is in the first place is a form of indoctrination in itself.

Now I don't have a huge problem with anyone having any kind of benign belief in whatever they like, but were I a parent, I would prefer my children understood that a belief in something supernatural is not something arrived upon on a whim, that the idea of a bearded man in the sky (or whatever) is not an easily acceptable concept and if they ever ended up believing in something of the sort, that they arrived at the conclusion entirely on their own at a stage in their lives when they were mature enough to contemplate the matter rationally. And that is why I would prefer they grew up in an environment which was as secular as possible.

ArthurDent

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Now I don't have a huge problem with anyone having any kind of benign belief in whatever they like, but were I a parent, I would prefer my children understood that a belief in something supernatural is not something arrived upon on a whim, that the idea of a bearded man in the sky (or whatever) is not an easily acceptable concept and if they ever ended up believing in something of the sort, that they arrived at the conclusion entirely on their own at a stage in their lives when they were mature enough to contemplate the matter rationally. And that is why I would prefer they grew up in an environment which was as secular as possible.

better move out of Ireland - ok I know I'm being a bit blase - but truthfully there is no way, imo, that this is possible. No child arrives at their ideas about anything "entirely on their own at a stage in their lives when they were mature enough to contemplate the matter rationally". Ireland is steeped in christian (or even RC) culture - chances are most kids your kids will be in contact with, at school, on the road, playing football will be brought up to some extent in a religion - they'll make communion/confirmations etc and your kids will discuss it with them. They'll see cartoons, films, read books that make reference to dieties / faiths. If you were born and raised here chances are you've had those experiences but yet you still were capable of making your own conclusions - why do you think your kids won't be able to do the same. I'm constantly amazed at what my kids understand.

That isn't to say that I want my kids taught a monothesitic doctrine in school - I don't, but have no problems with the receiving information about different faiths.

JC 2K3

Ah, I'm being idealistic, but so was Sleepy when he first mentioned he'd prefer a fully secular school.

As for where I'd realistically send my kids to school, I'll cross that bridge when/if I come to it

John Mason

lostinnappies wrote: »

Actually they do. I have numerous priests and nuns tell me and the whole class when i was at school that you can not enter heaven unless you get baptised and that the only other place for you was hell. Its not been long since the last time I heard a nun say that.

emm, they actually got rid of this idea last year. No more limbo or baby hell.

when i was growing up only the rich snob people sent their children to the Educate Together school but at the end of the day,i would be looking at the school and its facilities rather then whether they have religion classes