Educate Together, opinions?

lostinnappies

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

emm, they actually got rid of this idea last year. No more limbo or baby hell.

Seriously, what is the bible now becoming PC? I never knew God came down and re-wrote it:p Geez that could have save me alot of worry when I was young.

deisemum

When children are now preparing to make their first holy communion parents are told that children no longer commit sin but may do something that displeases God. They no longer go into a confession box.

Sleepy

ArthurDent wrote: »

just wondering what would fully secular mean - no discussion of any religions, no mention of any of the cultural aspects of religion that are prevalent in most peoples lives (whether they are religious or not) = no celebration of christmas, easter, divali, eid or whatever your'e having yourself...:)

I totally support the removal of teaching ANY religious doctrine as truth but am very happy to have my kids told about different faiths and reaaly don't see how religion can be removed totally as it is culturally v improtant to most people

I disagree that religion is culturally very important to most people in this day and age. Maybe it's just the company I keep and those I encounter in my daily business but religion seems to be of importance to only a small minority at this stage.

I'd honestly rather that my child wasn't taught about religions at school at all. Religion is the antithesis of education in my opinion. I don't want my daughter to ever accept something because she's told that that's the way it is. "Why?" is one of the most important questions a child can ask (or an adult imho) and I want her to understand that 'because I said so' isn't an acceptable answer.

I'd concede to religious education that taught our children why the various religions are all bunkem but while it's factually correct I can't imagine that being any more acceptable in our society than extremist muslim groups teaching jihad or fundamentalist christians preaching the murder of abortion practitioners...

Sleepy

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Ah, I'm being idealistic, but so was Sleepy when he first mentioned he'd prefer a fully secular school.

Absolutely correct. I think the difference between us is that it actually vexes me that the country isn't run according to my ideals!

ArthurDent

Sleepy wrote: »

I disagree that religion is culturally very important to most people in this day and age. Maybe it's just the company I keep and those I encounter in my daily business but religion seems to be of importance to only a small minority at this stage.

I'd honestly rather that my child wasn't taught about religions at school at all. Religion is the antithesis of education in my opinion. I don't want my daughter to ever accept something because she's told that that's the way it is. "Why?" is one of the most important questions a child can ask (or an adult imho) and I want her to understand that 'because I said so' isn't an acceptable answer.

I'd concede to religious education that taught our children why the various religions are all bunkem but while it's factually correct I can't imagine that being any more acceptable in our society than extremist muslim groups teaching jihad or fundamentalist christians preaching the murder of abortion practitioners...

I actually don't think our opinions are too far from each other - (could be way wrong tho!)
I think culturally people do still have an interest in religion - many yearly and big events have some religious aspect - Easter,Christmas, Weddings, funerals, halloween, christenings etc (whether peole are actiually practising faith or not is a different matter). And what I was asking was how would the cultural aspect of religion be addressed in a secular school?

Also my understanding of religious education - from what my kids get in an ET school and I know not the same in denominational schools- is not doctrine or being told that this belief is an absolute truth or not being allowed to ask why - as far as I can see they are encouraged to ask why. Re particular faiths and their beliefs - they are definitly NOT told that this is what the child has to believe - but rather - this is what muslims/christians/jews/humanists ....believe and are in no doubt that they have a right to their own belief system

Sleepy

ArthurDent, my view would be that religion shouldn't be given the oxygen of publicity. An hour spent teaching kids about antiquated, illogical fairytales would be much better spent on health and nutrition classes, PE, IT or one of the curriculum subjects imho.

ArthurDent

Sleepy wrote: »

ArthurDent, my view would be that religion shouldn't be given the oxygen of publicity. An hour spent teaching kids about antiquated, illogical fairytales would be much better spent on health and nutrition classes, PE, IT or one of the curriculum subjects imho.

hmm ok maybe we are "singing off the same hymn sheet" (:Dsorry couldn't resist!!) I think teaching about religion is important for all sorts of reasons - historical, cultural as well as a kind of civics - knowing why someone of a particular faith might do A,B or C because of what they believe in is imo important to know. It doesn't mean I'd particularly condone or agree with these beliefs but I think its important to know about them - edited to add - perhaps even so its possible to come from a position of knowledge when your child is agruging that a particular religion is a pile of clap trap !

John Mason

lostinnappies wrote: »

Seriously, what is the bible now becoming PC? I never knew God came down and re-wrote it:p Geez that could have save me alot of worry when I was young.

it was never mentioned in the Bible was made up the 15th Century, i think (i could be a bit out on my dates).

Ludo

Have I strayed into an education or religious theology forum by mistake?

How do I get out?

stovelid

Ludo wrote: »

How do I get out?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/index.php

Hotblack Desiato

ArthurDent wrote: »

Re discussion of thesim - I've two kids going through primary education at moment in an ET school - the faith systems/belief strand of the ethical core curriculum treats all faiths (and belief systems including atheism/humanism) in the same way

It is my belief that all religion is bunk. Teaching kids about all sorts of different flavours of bunk (or even worse, "celebrating" it as one poster said their ET school does) does not make it ok. Is it too much to ask that my child not be taught nonsense in school..?

I am not being deliberately provocative here, just stating my belief which is equally valid with anyone else's.

lostinnappies

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

it was never mentioned in the Bible was made up the 15th Century, i think (i could be a bit out on my dates).

Im never believing a word they say again lol.:D

John Mason

ninja900 wrote: »

Is it too much to ask that my child not be taught nonsense in school..?

you better suggest that they dont teach folklore as well, down with this tir na nog busines

Ludo

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

you better suggest that they dont teach folklore as well, down with this tir na nog busines

And cancel christmas...SANTA DOES NOT EXIST!

Plus Christmas is a religious holiday anyway so I guess some people won't have to cancel it as they never celebrated it. After all, it would be a tad hypocritical to celebrate a religious holiday if you think the whole think is bad.

stovelid

Ludo wrote: »

Plus Christmas is a religious holiday anyway so I guess some people won't have to cancel it as they never celebrated it. After all, it would be a tad hypocritical to celebrate a religious holiday if you think the whole think is bad.

Less of the Santa heresy.

AFAIK, Christmas (or an equivalent festival) certainly predated Christianity....

.....which is my way of saying I ain't giving up my Christmas.

Ludo

stovelid wrote: »

Less of the Santa heresy.

AFAIK, Christmas (or an equivalent festival) certainly predated Christianity....

.....which is my way of saying I ain't giving up my Christmas.

Yes it did pre-date christianity...it was a festival of other "pagan" religions AFAIK..still a religious holiday though any way you look at it...enjoy your turkey

Sleepy

Ludo wrote: »

And cancel christmas...SANTA DOES NOT EXIST!

Plus Christmas is a religious holiday anyway so I guess some people won't have to cancel it as they never celebrated it. After all, it would be a tad hypocritical to celebrate a religious holiday if you think the whole think is bad.

Oh, Santa's a religious figure again rather than an invention of the Coca Cola corporation is he? :rolleyes:

Cancel Christmas all you like, I'm sure my kids can still enjoy 'the holiday season'

John Mason

The problem is the church and church holidays are part of social life.

I think it would be complete wrong to block all religion from you childrens life, i think you should embrace it and teach your children about all the other religions and followings from paganism to islam .

there are many good things to be learnt from the catholic religion. like you are never alone - no matter how scared you are soon one is looking over you.

there are lessons on how to be good person.

i am not the worlds most religious person, i go to mass on christmas day and its a traditional, i love.

barbiegirl

Going to against basic premise of the last few posts. I see nothing wrong with religious education in schools being managed by a religious order of any denomination. I 33 and I never had, despite going to a parish school, and being taught by nuns, religion stuffed down my throat. I was basically taught, the do unto others bit, that stayed with me, as much as it can.
I am not mad religious, I don't go to mass every week, but I do think I had a good grounding for what equates to living a good life. Be kind to people, view everyone as equal and make decisions as best you can.
I don't see any reason to take this message out of childrens life. They tried to take religious orders out of school management and no-one else stood up to replace them, so in that environment, the choice is still allow your kids to have religious education, I've read the little books they have, my nephews have them, and they're fine, OR chose a non religious school, or indeed step in and be counted on your schools board of management and begin the process of moving the religious orders out, believe me in most cases they no longer want to be there.
So I guess my point is, not meaning to be rude, either put up and change things by getting involved or shut up and stop complaining.

ArthurDent

barbiegirl wrote: »

I don't see any reason to take this message out of childrens life. They tried to take religious orders out of school management and no-one else stood up to replace them, so in that environment, the choice is still allow your kids to have religious education, I've read the little books they have, my nephews have them, and they're fine, OR chose a non religious school, or indeed step in and be counted on your schools board of management and begin the process of moving the religious orders out, believe me in most cases they no longer want to be there.
So I guess my point is, not meaning to be rude, either put up and change things by getting involved or shut up and stop complaining.

where have "they" tried taking religious orders out of school managment? Some schools (mainly in 2nd level) have had religious orders hand 'em over to state (or to charitable trust) cos there were no religious left to run them. But on BOM's its the same make up regardless of patron - at primary 2 patron nominees (in some but not all catholic schools its PP and one other) principal, another teacher, 2 parents and 2 community reps.
In all schools that I know of regardless of what type they are there is a huge amount of volunteerism to keep it going, from manamgemnt, to fundraising, to volunterring in classes etc

Son of Jack

Son of Jack wrote: »

Whoopsadaisydoodles, great you had such a good experience at school. I did too and I went to a single sex school run by a religious order.

Group work, encouraging the bright children and supporting the less academic all appear to be part of the New Curriculum which operates in schools up and down the country, regardless of patron.

Just giving my first hand experience, I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything bad about any other types of schools! I am sure there are many good catholic schools up and down the country, my 4 year old will be starting in a mixed catholic school next september!

JC 2K3

barbiegirl wrote: »

I do think I had a good grounding for what equates to living a good life. Be kind to people, view everyone as equal and make decisions as best you can.
I don't see any reason to take this message out of childrens life.

No reason to take that message out, however that message has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of a god.

Son of Jack

Hello again Whoopsadaisydoodles, ah, I hear what you are saying and you do seem very fair minded in all of this.

I suppose it's just any time any one inquires of the merits of ET schools, usually what is said is that they are 'child centered' and 'inclusive' and as I have said already on this thread hopefully schools in general are child centered and inclusive.

Twas just your description of your happy time in school seemed to suggest that the reason for encouraging the bright children and the other merits you mentioned was it was an ET school.

I understand you now. Trust that you and your child will have a great experience of the Irish education system

Ludo

Sleepy wrote: »

Oh, Santa's a religious figure again rather than an invention of the Coca Cola corporation is he? :rolleyes:

No, he is not an invention of Coke...that is a common urban legend. Go check it out :rolleyes:

Ever heard of someone called St Nicholas? Also possibly based on other historical/folklore tales.

Sleepy wrote: »

ArthurDent, my view would be that religion shouldn't be given the oxygen of publicity. An hour spent teaching kids about antiquated, illogical fairytales would be much better spent on health and nutrition classes, PE, IT or one of the curriculum subjects imho.

Anyway regardless of where he came from, he does not exist in reality and therefore your children obviously will never learn of him or believe in him if you have your way. No tooth fairy either. And of course cartoons are not real so none of those also. No bedtime stosed on fairytales either...gosh...no halloween (based on a religious festival also)...no easter bunny...sounding like a dull childhood so far. Sounding a bit like Charles Dickens Hard Times to me...all a bit Mr Gradgrindish.

Sleepy wrote: »

Cancel Christmas all you like, I'm sure my kids can still enjoy 'the holiday season'

Ah yes the holiday season...the cry of people who want all the benefits/enjoyment of something they utterly despise and reject.

Anyway, I don't agree with religion being rammed down anyones throat either. As long as it is treated properly it is not indoctrination. I had a fantastic catholic school education but I realised soon enough that it was not all true (like santa). Didn't do me any harm and in fact did me a lot of good.
Which is why I come back to the original point...judge each school on it's own merits. Not by lumping all schools of a certain type in together just cos some of them are not good. I'm sure there are dodgey ET schools with some teachers who are not good enough out there but that does not make them all bad.

Sleepy

Ludo wrote: »

No, he is not an invention of Coke...that is a common urban legend. Go check it out :rolleyes:

Ever heard of someone called St Nicholas? Also possibly based on other historical/folklore tales.

When kids think of Santa the image in their minds is that of the Santa Claus invented by the Coca Cola corporation, not that there's anything wrong with it.

Anyway regardless of where he came from, he does not exist in reality and therefore your children obviously will never learn of him or believe in him if you have your way. No tooth fairy either. And of course cartoons are not real so none of those also. No bedtime stosed on fairytales either...gosh...no halloween (based on a religious festival also)...no easter bunny...sounding like a dull childhood so far. Sounding a bit like Charles Dickens Hard Times to me...all a bit Mr Gradgrindish.

By assuming all that from my posts should I assume you'll be teaching your children that science is evil and the bible is a factually correct document? I believe it's wrong to indoctrinate an impressionable mind with concepts as dangerous as religion. I believe in secular states where church and state are widely removed. I don't believe in the 'right' to educate one's children in religious schools as it only leads to segregation of communities. If you want to tell your kids that religion is real, I believe it's society's duty to arm them with a decent enough education that they'll understand that religious faith is nothing more than believing in something because one wants to believe in it.Then, and only then, does someone have the right to profess a religious faith imho.

Ah yes the holiday season...the cry of people who want all the benefits/enjoyment of something they utterly despise and reject.

I see nothing wrong in having a time of the year for people to focus on their family and friends and spread 'good will' to all. It's a nice idea and while it originated from pagan tradition and was subsequently hijacked by Christianity that's not a good enough reason to throw it away. I don't belive in throwing away the concept of being nice to each other as espoused by virtually every religious order simply because they happen to agree with something in my moral code either.

Anyway, I don't agree with religion being rammed down anyones throat either. As long as it is treated properly it is not indoctrination. I had a fantastic catholic school education but I realised soon enough that it was not all true (like santa). Didn't do me any harm and in fact did me a lot of good.
Which is why I come back to the original point...judge each school on it's own merits. Not by lumping all schools of a certain type in together just cos some of them are not good. I'm sure there are dodgey ET schools with some teachers who are not good enough out there but that does not make them all bad.

To paraphrase what Thaedydal said earlier in this thread - as long as there are schools teaching impressionable children that 2 + 2 = 4 and that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in all humans because a woman made from a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree and thereby pissing off an invisible wizard who lives in the sky in the same day, you are indoctrinating children with religion. You're teaching them that both the factual and the ludicrous are valid and correct.

di11on

Sleepy wrote: »

...
I believe in secular states where church and state are widely removed.
...

AMEN to that :-)

I'm a Christian myself but I believe wholeheartedly in church/state separation.

The fact that educate together is the exception rather than the rule is a real blight on Irish society.

I attended an international conference recently with work and was talking to a Danish colleague. When he learned that most state schools are run under the patronage of the Catholic Church, he was horrified. When I went on to explain that progression through the faith and participation in the sacraments of that faith (Holy Communion, Confirmation) he couldn't believe it.

It may be the choice of some, or indeed many, to have progression through Catholic sacraments or indeed any particular religious system as part of the school cirriculum. However, this should not be part of the free education option offerred by the state.

Imagine if today it was decided that every child in Ireland should have a constitutional right to a montessori pre-school education. Imagine it was approved via a referrendum and incorporated into the constitution.

Imagine then, it was decided that the catholic church would supervise the establishment of these montessori schools and that batism and preparation for baptism was to be a part of it. This would seem ludicrous.

Then why is it the situation within our national schools?

nesf

Honestly, as much as I admire the civic spirit of ET schools and the people who set them up I'd really not automatically view them as superior as a group. I think that you really do need to go out and find out about the local schools in your area. Sometimes the local church run school will be a better option for you than the closest ET one.


As for the broader debate on our present set up of mostly Church run schools. It's historical inertia combined with many/most people not really minding about the Church involvement or the religious elements in the schooling. It's the whole opt in/opt out problem. You've a few die hard people on both sides of the debate but the vast majority of people I've discussed this with don't really hold strong opinions on the matter and will choose a school based on factors other than who runs it and how religion is taught and most of these would be agnostics or atheists.

Ludo

Sleepy wrote: »

You're teaching them that both the factual and the ludicrous are valid and correct.

This is what I am on about...you repeatedly mention teaching the ludicrous and factual together is incorrect. Kids in school learn lots of things that are not factually correct. Fairytales etc etc. Yet people do not have a problem with these (and neither do I). These stories are essentially teaching the same thing as religion...morals and common decent behaviour, good v evil, etc etc. I cannot understand how people do not have a problem with these but when religion is mentioned, people get all hot and bothered.

I'm not religous at all but I don't care about it either way. I will choose the best school possible dependent on a range of criteria. Religion isn't actually one of those for me. If the school is the best in the area and teaches islam for 30 mins a day, that would be fine by me.

Sleepy

Ludo, maybe your education (or that of your children) greatly varied from mine but I do not recall ever being taught that Cuchulainn, Fionn MacCool or the elves and the shoemaker were real or that they were anything other than fairy stories which any child of school going age will understand.

In a school of Catholic ethos (the only type I've any experience of so I'm assuming it's similar in Protestant / Muslim / Hindi schools), children are taught that a deity called 'God' exists as a factual being, that his son (who is also the same person as him) lived and died as a human being 2000 years ago, that he could perform magic and that the religious sacraments are part of their education.

nesf, I'd agree to an extent that if I'm living in an area where the local ET school has a poor academic record, I'll probably send my daughter to a local Catholic school with a better record under the pretense that she's been christened (forging baptismal certs etc. if need be). The fact remains, however, that this isn't something I should have to do in a notionally secular state.

My partner's son was just christened by his father's family for the sole purpose of easy access to schooling. I noted with interest that the church expected a 'donation' of about €200 for this. Nice scam if you ask me - control the majority of schools and charge people for the privilege of allowing you to begin the indoctrination of their children into your faith in order for them to access education.

The really, really tragic part of this is that if Fianna Fail had any sense they could have made the bail out of the Catholic Church's child abuse scandals the payment for the retrieval of our schools from their clutches. That kind of opportunity may never come again (and given the damage inflicted upon the victims of those scandals, I hope it never does).

nesf

Sleepy wrote: »

The fact remains, however, that this isn't something I should have to do in a notionally secular state.

We haven't been that secular for that long and the primary level school system was born when this country was very much not a secular one. There has been movement away from the Church dominated education system but a) there's resistance against this and b) it was always going to take a very long time to happen. At the end of the day when for most people the Church running a school isn't a major issue (and it really isn't, most people would put decreasing class sizes far ahead of who runs the school when it comes to how money should be spent at primary level) then it's unsurprising that we still have a very Church dominated system. Essentially the money to do something about this has only been around in the last decade and there were a myriad of other causes which we far more important to people that the money was (and should have been) spent on first.