Educate Together, opinions?

kiwikid

Lil Kitten wrote: »

I student taught in an Educate Together school and just didn't like the atmosphere or ethos.

Very hippieish vibe, obnoxious and precocious kids given too much choice and responsibility too early. Full of their own self importance and certainly born with a silver spoon in their mouth. And they are seen as "different" by kids in the other local schools but I can't pin point it.

I don't think the school knows what it wants to be. Include all and teach all, but you can't tread on any toes??? Like you have to celebrate Christmas for the Christians but you can't because of the Jehovah's Witnesses. I felt as thought it was a school of ideology that wasn't practiced in the class i.e. differentiated work/ inclusion.

I didn't think much of the teachers either. Opinionated, judging and pretentious. I felt that the parents are too involved in the run of things, like policies. And god forbid if there's any little issue with one of their darlings, your head would roll...

You couldn't get me to teach there again or send my (non existant) children for love nor money.

well i have to take your word for it - you have seen both sides. However you are not the first teacher to have negative opinions of schools outside the main. I was told by one very young teacher that Gaelschools were elitist and ET were hippish etc and i though to myself a lot you would know its your first few years out but i have to wonder aloud here - could it possibly be because the parents actually have thought about and want to be directly involved in their childrens education and so teachers have to interact more with mammys who do their childs homework with them etc.
In reality there are so many parents who do not care and send their children to the handiest schools - usually state and never look inside the door, don't go to school matches etc etc - much easier for teachers to operate where only one or two parents want to talk to them regarding their children on a regular basis?
Its just s thought.

deisemum

I think any school irrespective of it's ethos is only as good as it's principal and teachers.

One of my friends sends her children to an ET school. It's exactly like Lil Kitten described, could very well be the same one. A lot of hippy and arty types some of whom would benefit from being introduced to soap and water and if you saw them you'd know exactly what I mean and I'm not saying that as a reflection on all ET schools or being exclusive to ET schools.

I believe they have an annual international or world day yet my friend is asian married to a white english man but her children got a very negative response when they said they were bringing in food etc to reflect their asian background. Apparently inclusion is selective in that particular school.

Another thing she's noticed is that the children of the parents that are on the BOM get away with all sorts and it's their children that are the ones photographed in the local newspapers when it comes to some article on their school.

kiwikid

deisemum wrote: »

Another thing she's noticed is that the children of the parents that are on the BOM get away with all sorts and it's their children that are the ones photographed in the local newspapers when it comes to some article on their school.

happens everywhere luv - check the football teams - who has trained all year and who has wandered in at the last moment when the medals are given out.

byhookorbycrook

to be honest, so much depends on the teachers and the principal, so a sweeping generalisation re Gaelscoileanna or ET or whatever will not stand up to scrutiny- unless there are studies to back the facts. Bottom line, visit each and every school you are interested in.

afino

I agree with a previous poster that you can't make sweeping generalisations. My kids go to an Educate Together school and I took them out of a local Catholic school (where they were having bullying problems) to send them there. I chose ET because I wanted to be more involved in my children's school - the religious side of it was far less important. I heard wonderful stories from people about ET education in other schools, primarily in Dublin. It seemed like the answer to our problems and in some ways it has been.

Our kids are having a good experience at school. There is very little bullying and when it happens it is dealt with well. HOWEVER, in our school although they claim to want parental involvement, it has been my experience that every effort by parents to give freely of time and effort is met with resistance. It really saddens me to say that.

It seems that the ET ethos is an ideal and there are no hard-and-fast rules how it is applied from school to school. That is why the experiences of parents and kids can vary so much in Educate Together schools. I will say that we have met some great families in the ET school, the kids are really nice and the teachers we have dealt with are very good.

Just be aware that the promise and the reality of ET can be so different from school to school. As long as my kids are happy in their school I will have to settle for that because I am reluctant to put them through the trauma of another school move. So we are staying put with the attitude that, although far from ideal, it is better than the experience our kids had before.

Tim Robbins

bored and tired wrote: »

It should never be a choice of an ET school versus a catholic school or COI school, it should be a choice based on who has the best teachers, the best facilities, the best school.

Of course it should be about best teachers, facilities and school but if your kid isn't RC or COI you have to go to an ET school if you are lucky enough to have one in your area.

Orion

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Of course it should be about best teachers, facilities and school but if your kid isn't RC or COI you have to go to an ET school if you are lucky enough to have one in your area.

Ideally all schools would be multi-denominational and religious instruction would be up to the parents. But unfortunately that's not the case.

However, non-Catholic children can go to catholic schools. And while religious instruction is on the curriculum in those schools parents have the right to excuse their children from those classes. And many do.

The problem with that, particularly in smaller communities, is that it marks little Johnny out as different to the other kids. So while the child is shielded from from the indoctrination it's hard to shield him/her from the other children who will always treat something different as a reason for a schoolyard taunt.

My kids are now in their second year in an ET school. We've always taught them to be open-minded about differences but until they went there it was just theory. Some of the conversations we've had with them since they've started school about racism, religion etc. have been excellent. I wouldn't be sure we'd have had those conversations if they'd been in the local convent school.

Khannie

Tim, can you not drag up 10 month old threads please. You're around long enough to know that.

byhookorbycrook

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Of course it should be about best teachers, facilities and school but if your kid isn't RC or COI you have to go to an ET school if you are lucky enough to have one in your area.

You don't "have " to go to any school, if an ET/COI/RC school have sufficent space they will take any and all or no religion.

meganj

Hi OP,

I went to three primary schools when I was a child, the first one was a Catholic national school, the second was the Steiner school that used to be in Rathgar and then the final one was an E.T. in Rathfarnham. In the first school I was bullied by the teachers after an incident when I put a line of pencil down a bathroom wall when i was five. I was tortured for my behaviour for six months and wouldn't tell my mum and even had thoughts of suicide... but that had nothing to do with the religion of the school and everything to do with the power mad principal.

But I digress I left the steiner school in 4th class because they moved the entire school down the country and then i subsequently ended up in the E.T. school, where I had the best three years of my life. The teachers were fantastic, the classroom set up was wonderful as we all sat in groups of six or seven, we did lots of art work and all sorts of things. I will always remeber my sixth class teacher who was a wonderful woman who really encouraged me to find my potential. I really have nothing but good things to say about E.T. schools and if your looking for a non-denominational education for your children then I can't think of any other place to send them.

Best of luck!

ian507

I have started a petition to get an Educate Together 2nd level school to be built in Midleton. Read all about the background and or sign it here

cbyrd

i am one of those who baptised my kids for the simplicity of getting into school and for them not standing out as different when it comes to communion or confirmation..
i don't take them to mass every sunday.. they have been a few times

they go to an irish school they discuss other religions, it's even printed in their books

i went to an all girls catholic school and i lived to tell the tale

my kids are co-ed

i was 84th on the waiting list when i registered my eldest, my old primary wouldn't put her on the list we were the wrong side of the river for them... the school on our side of the town had closed their lists for the next 5 years...

as regards the religous aspect..my kids learn about religion, they learn poetry, sex education, maths, history, goegraphy..etc
we don't make a big deal of any of these subjects at home
we discuss subjects as they come up in relevance to conversations or situations that we're in.. ie when we take a day trip to a particular place we discuss history and goegraphy
to a relations christening communion wedding we discuss why the ritual is important to this person.. end of discussion
my kids will have an all round education i hope
i hope they will not suffer for my decision
if they decide to take up a more active role in religion when they're older that is their choice, as is if they decide to ditch it altogether
they cannot form an opinion if they don't have all the relative information

and just a thought

One of the first of the Penal Laws specified that "no person of the popish religion shall publicly or in private houses teach school, or instruct youth in learning within this realm..." One commentator on this Penal Law said that "It was not merely the persecution of a religion, it was an attempt to degrade and demoralize a whole nation." A law so unjust as this pleaded to be defied and the Irish of the 18th century were equal to the challenge.

It was not that there were no schools in Ireland open to Roman Catholic children that led to the Hedge Schools. The English government sponsored schools but the majority of the Catholic population refused to use them. The government schools were clearly intended to proselytize and to Anglicize Ireland. As late as 1825, the Protestant hierarchy petitioned the King, saying "amongst the ways to convert and civilise the Deluded People, the most necessary have always been thought to be that a sufficient number of English Protestant Schools be erected, wherein the Children of the Irish Natives should be instructed in the English Tongue and in the Fundamental Principles of the True Religion."

http://www.irish-society.org/Hedgemaster%20Archives/hedge_schools.htm

the successive governments are to blame (mostly FF) for not taking the education system under its control and fuding them... but then maybe the system would have fallen assunder as the government don't seem capable of running a p!ssup in a brewery

ian507

Hi cybrd,
I guess why I like an ET school is that half an hour a day that is spent on the christian religion in most schools as was the case in my sons previous school before we switched to an ET is better spent in teaching as you say about all backgrounds and faiths and human history without preparing them for a specific faith in the school day.
There is nothing wrong with people signing their children up to the church if they see fit. We are not RC. We do not subscribe to any faith or religious belief system.
My children are different in that way. I am and will be happy for them to "stand out" in the community as responsible citizens and be free and independent thinkers. I want a school that promotes individuality reason and inquiry from a young age. Religions by their very nature do not so I say from my own experience schools with a religious ethos do not.
In our home we talk about these issues a lot.

As to religion being a foundation of morality. It is only the forces secularism over the centuries that means that "moderate" religious people today have jettisoned concepts like slavery, genocide, stoning of women, mass killings etc etc which are all laid down in the bible.
I would rather my children get their morality by inquiry, discussion, free thinking, philosophy, being taught about love and kindness.
I don't think a book of iron age myths a tribal squabbling from two thousand years ago is the best thinking we have available to us in the 21st century.
When someone we know enters into a religious ceremony or process that is the beginning of the discussion for us, not the end. Not to criticize, but to understand how beliefs give rise to ideas that may or may not serve a person or those around them that well.

There are bad ideas everywhere and especially where religion is concerned that they need to be dealt with clearly and logically.
If my children decide they want to be involved in a religion when they are older of course they can. But hopefully they will come from a position that isn't tied to an accident of birthplace or cultural pressures.
It is not just the religion in schools that is the problem it is the lazy thinking that goes with it. I don't think that having a portion of the school day where you must switch your brain off and "just believe" promotes the kind of rational and intelligent thinking we desperately need for the 21st century.
If children have been indoctrinated into a faith before they can reason for themselves clearly in primary school, this is an example. By the time they get to 2nd level school it is a done deal, they have been sucked in and have to reject it and suffer or live with it without being shown other possibilities.
My wife and I are interested in our own and humanities desire for spiritual life. I just think there is a better approach than "faith".
Dividing children in school on religious differences is also poor thinking. This does not promote cohesive communities.
I can't understand the moral position of anyone having their children join an organization that has been responsible for the abuse of so many children. That's enough reason alone to dismiss it with the contempt it deserves.
Is it hope and fear that makes people cling to old and bad ideas? Hope that there is a God and a heaven? Fear of death?
Hoping and fearing doesn't make something true.
Just a few ideas for you to think about and perhaps discuss with your children.
Love and peace to you and yours

cbyrd

I'm completely with you on that,

I'm not going to force my kids to believe in any religon, or none..;)
I think for the most part the catholic religion is extremely flawed, i mean any religion that excludes and discriminates against one sex could be seen as flawed!!
But there again i want to believe that my nana is in heaven looking out for me.. so i guess i'd be one of these a la carte catholics.. i believe in heaven but not the hell that was preached about .. i'd like to think i've enough cop on to see through a lot of the rules that were made up by disturbed men in centuries gone by were just wrong and the whole marriage thing for not splitting up parish land.. well that just idiotic..
so i have taken my morals from what i was taught but i can only vaguely remember all the stories and prayers.. although i do find myself at mass when i need something very badly or i'm stressed. so in that sense i find comfort in it.
I was taught this in school and by my parents and grandparents, only by being taught could i select and reject as an adult what i want to believe.. by not knowing the whole story how can i make an informed decision? By taking religion out of school altogether you are missing a vital part of history.. you can teach without setting one religion against the other..but that comes down to the individual teacher...
In secondary school our religion classes were 4 45 min classes per week... but there was very little religion talked about. it was mostly emotional development and self awareness ,the whole do onto others thing. i wouldn't like to see that done away with... i think its very important for teens.

d32

true the principal can make or break a school! a teacher's approach can make or break a school year too. in our case the kids change to a new teacher every yr-
my kid's in ed together, more than half the class have just made communion(i was surprised at the amount of kids doing it-lotsa kids from eastern europe-they're catholic) and they stayed back in the school building after school to practise or learn their communion stuff-i think the local priest came down to teach them. i don't think it created any real division between the catholics and the infidels.
there are lots more boys than girls in the class. there are lots of soft kids and high energy kids who didn't manage too well in the local single sex catholic or mixed protestant schools.
parents are encouraged to join in with school garden/knitting/science or whatever the parent can share...i found these situations are very much learn as you go rather than very structured. many many parents are desperate to avoid getting involved!! so that's kinda funny...
the kids are allowed stay and play in playground(under parent/teacher supervision) for about 20mins after school closes-i'd say that's unusual and the kids really love it.
they seem to discuss many topics in class. they touch off lots of religious festivals. the kids do lots of fundraising for the school, i think for charities too! they're generally active quite a confident bunch it seems to me.

Chuchoter

I would say going to a single sex school does more damage than a single religion one. Anyone I know from an ET school hasn't done great at second level. They get really behind on Irish and have no respect for teachers/ routine/doing homework.

byhookorbycrook

Bit of a broad generalisation, I would have thought.If children have no respect for routine/teachers/homework how can this be caused by a number of schools??

Chuchoter

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Bit of a broad generalisation, I would have thought.If children have no respect for routine/teachers/homework how can this be caused by a number of schools??

I get what your saying, just my year group, a lot of the troublemakers were ET. Maybe I'm generalizing but I find calling your teacher by their first name really weird.

byhookorbycrook

I teach in a Gaelscoil, children call us Múinteóir X, has never caused a problem. If you command respect a name means very little.

Ickle Magoo

crayolastereo wrote: »

I get what your saying, just my year group, a lot of the troublemakers were ET. Maybe I'm generalizing but I find calling your teacher by their first name really weird.

Not all ET schools do that, by the way even so, being weird to you doesn't mean anything. I'm not catholic, I find confirmations weird. Go figure. :cool:

Everyone you know from your local ET being a troublemaker, disrespectful, etc, is a far bigger reflection on your local ET and it's staff than the ET ethos as a whole. I'm certain there are swathes of schools with all manner of religion, single sex, etc who produce similar pupils.

Truley

crayolastereo wrote: »

I would say going to a single sex school does more damage than a single religion one. Anyone I know from an ET school hasn't done great at second level. They get really behind on Irish and have no respect for teachers/ routine/doing homework.

crayolastereo wrote: »

I get what your saying, just my year group, a lot of the troublemakers were ET. Maybe I'm generalizing but I find calling your teacher by their first name really weird.

The lack of respect and poor academic performance has nothing to do with the Educate Together ethos itself, they teach the same national school curriculum as any other school. The only substantial difference is how they teach religion and of course the name thing. However this isn't unique to ET schools, Gaelscoils and Waldorf schools do it too. It's just a hang up from the past which gives people the idea that first name = disrespectful. Children that go to ET schools find it quite natural though, we always said 'teacher' when addressing her in person.

As for the troublemaker thing, it does happen that when children are hyperactive/badly behaved parents try to send them to 'alternative' schools such as waldorf or ET schools with the hope that they will do better with a more relaxed/liberal atmosphere. Also because alot of the time such schools are in well to do areas so maybe there's a hope that their will associate with a 'better crowd.' I found this where I went anyway. There is nothing in the ethos of Educate Together that encourages lack of discipline or bad behaviour.