The AH Budget discussion thread.

javaboy

blackbox wrote: »

It's not just that he lacks charisma - he's a fool.

Surely you heard the "populist nonsense" story last week.

BTW Mary Harney should resign because this budget is so far from the principles and vision of the PDs.



Unfortunately there is no credible alternative to FF (yet).

I assume you're talking about the 5% pay cut? In fairness to him, he never tried to portray it as anything more than a symbolic gesture or in more cynical language, a publicity stunt.

The ministers are taking a 10% pay cut in the budget. That's not really any different to Inda Kinny's stunt imo. A smokescreen tactic so they can say "We're all in it together".

Dyr

So to sum this budget up:

Free cake for builders and bankers
Cake tax for everyone else

amacachi

ven0m wrote: »

WTF???

Do YOU even understand HOW you get OUT OF A RECESSION, or position to take advantage once it stems? you KEEP money available to spend in an economy, not remove it from it in such extremes.

What I said has nothing to do with unions (self serving evil bastards of things that they are!).

If it were as easy as that we'd never be in a recession for more than a few weeks :P I think we agree on quite a bit, the best thing the government could do now is spend spend spend, but 15 years of not putting any money aside and the EU not allowing more than a certain amount in deficit makes that difficult.
Add to that the years of pandering to certain unions and letting them get too strong and we have no chance to sort things out down that road.

ionapaul

ZygOte wrote: »

+1 but "the last time he was Taoiseach" am i missing years of my life? i dont remember that ever happening?

That was intentional I mean, if 'FG / Enda Kenny are a worse shower than FF' is the reason we keep returning FF to power, surely people are comparing Enda Kenny's time as Taoiseach to Bertie / Brian's, right? I'm not a FG supporter at all, but how exactly can he be worse if he hasn't been Taoiseach yet or won tens (hundreds?) of thousands of euro 'on the horses' like that corrupt former leader.

One thing I'd like to roll back on a little - I shouldn't have said that corruption is evident from the top to the bottom in FF; I'm sure the majority of members of the party are fairly decent folk. It is those that have had a grip on power there over the past few decades that have the strong stench of corruption about them - FF would needed to be cleansed of this old guard before I could ever even give them my lowest preference. The Greens too, how they agreed to the budget and the sub-prime provision I'll never know.

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

I think the means testing is long overdue. I haven't seen the actual threshold used so it could be unfair but the idea makes sense. I mean why should a financially comfortable 75 year old with a decent pension income get free medical care? It doesn't make any sense.

I will hold this current government responsible for the premature deaths of thousands of old age pensioners in this country.

Many elderly were brought up during the war era when they lived through an time when families saved and skimped on everything in daily life from food vouchers, switching off lights, even cutting down on heating, they repaired everything instead of replacing. My 86Yo father is an example.

My father is privileged that he still has a family and a GP that he knows as a personal friend to make sure he takes his prescriptions. There are thousands of elderly that are on their own who have no family or GP connections. Their health is now in serious jeopardy because they are in danger of skimping on their vital prescriptions such as warfrin and heart medication to save a few cents. Brian Lenihan you will have blood on your hands.

Cookie_Monster

Seemingly this €10 tax on flights is not payable on planes with less than 20 seats.

So the super rich jet set don't have to pay it!

FF looking out for their friends once again:mad:

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I will hold this current government responsible for the premature deaths of thousands of old age pensioners in this country.

Many elderly were brought up during the war era when they lived through an time when families saved and skimped on everything in daily life from food vouchers, switching off lights, even cutting down on heating, they repaired everything instead of replacing. My 86Yo father is an example.

My father is privileged that he still has a family and a GP that he knows as a personal friend to make sure he takes his prescriptions. There are thousands of elderly that are on their own who have no family or GP connections. Their health is now in serious jeopardy because they are in danger of skimping on their vital prescriptions such as warfrin and heart medication to save a few cents. Brian Lenihan you will have blood on your hands.

For once I, and I think many others, agree with you fully and whole heartidly

SimpleSam06

TimAy wrote: »

I will happily be paying the ten euro to get as far away from this country as possible once I graduate.

But where will you go?

Cookie_Monster

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

But where will you go?

Cark, boy:D

gazzer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

For once I, and I think many others, agree with you fully and whole heartidly

I think when we look back in years to come we will realise what a complete and utter balls up this and the previous government have made of our country. All those years of the so called Celtic Tiger and we havnt got a pot to piss in. People still dying on hospital trolleys and now just because people might have been sensible and saved money for their old age they might now lose their medical cards. I swear to god if I bumped into Bertie Ahern I would not be responsible for my actions.

Dyr

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I will hold this current government responsible for the premature deaths of thousands of old age pensioners in this country.

.

In all fairness the free-benefits-for-all craze was just fianna fail using our money to buy votes, if the fogeys didnt see that coming then they need medical card glasses

Run_to_da_hills

Bambi wrote: »

In all fairness the free-benefits-for-all craze was just fianna fail using our money to buy votes, if the fogeys didnt see that coming then they need medical card glasses

Next that will go will be the pensioners free travel, it will be means tested and implicated through a "smart card" system.

Steve

gazzer wrote: »

People still dying on hospital trolleys and now just because people might have been sensible and saved money for their old age they might now lose their medical cards

I agree, they are the same people who gave a lifetime of income and all the other taxes to the state who are now just going to abandon them.
How many people have worked hard (for the state) and planned their retirement, picked their retirement age, bought their retirement home - all safe in the knowledge that if they got sick then they were covered by the state that they have given most of their lifetime earnings to in taxes.

It's sickening.

Dyr

Again that was invented by haughey to buy some OAP votes.

Im all for free fogey transport but the midicil card should be means linked

ScumLord

I don't know, could be worse. At least booze didn't go up.

I haven't really listened to any analysis of the budget yet but it didn't seem all that bad. I'll reserve judgement while I sift through all the biased, anti anything that crowd do bullpap.

Prof.Badass

Bambi wrote: »

Again that was invented by haughey to buy some OAP votes.

Im all for free fogey transport but the midicil card should be means linked

why? if someone works hard all their life and pays taxes, then they're just as entitled to benifits as someone who scrapes through life on minium wage.

honestly.old people have almost no income. You're saying we should punish those that were wise enough to save up for their retirement?

socialism is not just for the poor!

genericgoon

The Government has been trying to run a welfare state on the cheap for so long and since they've lost the golden egg of the property boom this is being exposed horribly for all to see. No more pretending we can have a fully functioning welfare state with a low tax regime (tax which is often misspent by our incompetent politician with their myopic and stupid pet projects. Even the good ideas they implement nearly always end up getting screwed up) Its time to just take the bullet and go the privatisation route or buck up and face the fact that if we want a truly functioning publicly funded health/education/welfare etc system then we're going to have to pay more tax.

However, since our politicians are for the most part incompetent buffoons and are supported by a civil service which doesn't seem to know the meaning of the words 'value for money', I'd rather the money was left in the hands of normal people. At least then people who know what they're doing won't have to pay for the incompentencies of others.

Run_to_da_hills

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know, could be worse. At least booze didn't go up.

It didn't go up but you can be fined €140 on the spot if you take to much of it. :eek:

P_1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It didn't go up but you can be fined €140 on the spot if you take to much of it. :eek:

And you were doing so well... :eek::pac:

jos28

They did not do me any favours :
Will have to pay the 1% levy (income tax with a different name)
Hypocondriac husband (can only claim 20% back on a Med1 form)
Son in college (Registration fees up by nearly 70% !!)
Mother in nursing home costing €870 per week (can only claim 20% back and she could also lose her desperately needed medical card).
Vat rate increased on everything I buy

I'm no economist but history has shown us that in times of recession, governments are supposed to encourage people to spend and keep the cash flowing. There was so much they could have done to lift us out of this 'recession' but they failed.:mad:

ART6

So we are dealing with incompetent and blundering buffoons who were incapable of the fundamental economics of the average family -- in the good times, save a bit for the bad. Now we, the taxpayers, pick up the bill. OK, so there will in due course be a general election, and we can be rid of Brian x 2. But then what? Labour? FG? SF? PDs (or sorry--forgot), Greens? I don't know about the rest of ye, but I am fast becoming an anarchist (look it up-- believer in the absence of government).:mad:

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know, could be worse. At least booze didn't go up.

Is VAT not applied to booze?

rainbow kirby

TimAy wrote: »

I will happily be paying the ten euro to get as far away from this country as possible once I graduate.

Likewise. So sick of this country.

Run_to_da_hills

Perhaps the Wolf Tones can re release this track as a tribute to Brian Lenihan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8xcGEbmHXU&feature=related

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I will hold this current government responsible for the premature deaths of thousands of old age pensioners in this country.

Many elderly were brought up during the war era when they lived through an time when families saved and skimped on everything in daily life from food vouchers, switching off lights, even cutting down on heating, they repaired everything instead of replacing. My 86Yo father is an example.

My father is privileged that he still has a family and a GP that he knows as a personal friend to make sure he takes his prescriptions. There are thousands of elderly that are on their own who have no family or GP connections. Their health is now in serious jeopardy because they are in danger of skimping on their vital prescriptions such as warfrin and heart medication to save a few cents. Brian Lenihan you will have blood on your hands.

I'd just like to clarify this. I wouldn't argue that the proposed means testing for medical cards is probably going to be a complete cock up. I just believe that there's nothing wrong with means testing in theory. It's just the actual threshold used that will be a problem.

pithater1 wrote: »

And you were doing so well... :eek::pac:

He was wasn't he? He just couldn't resist.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bambi wrote: »

Im all for free fogey transport but the midicil card should be means linked

I'm not even saying your wrong, but here's why I believe that the medical card for the elderly should have been left alone.

Those monies could have been drawn back from other means, ie the ATM charge being reduced from €10 per year to €5-. Like, who gives a flying fvck. (to name but one)

But there's not only that. What kind of message those this send out to the elderly?.

I'll tell you what it reads like to me, ''Now your 65, hurry up to 70 and die you greedy fvcker''.

It tells me that we don't value our elderly, they've become a burden to us.

I don't care if my elderly neighbours are racking it in still, or are bearly keeping the wolves from the door. I value them all, I cherish the contribution they've made to Ireland and I believe their last years should be made as comfortable and less stressful as possible.

As for the rest of the budget, I've other view's on that but not as strong as I feel about the medical card.

I feel the government done a despicable, greedy and uncaring thing - BASTARDS.

EX-FF voter here.

keefg

Hmmm.....just read this interesting article.

http://www.rte.ie/money/budget2009/stories/2008/1015/budgetlenihan.html

It seems Me. Lenihan is quite prepared to keep taxing us more & more if we continue to shop in the north to try to avoid the "Rip-Off Ireland" prices. :mad:

Dyr

Mairt wrote: »

I'm not even saying your wrong, but here's why I believe that the medical card for the elderly should have been left alone.

Those monies could have been drawn back from other means, ie the ATM charge being reduced from €10 per year to €5-. Like, who gives a flying fvck. (to name but one)

But there's not only that. What kind of message those this send out to the elderly?.

I'll tell you what it reads like to me, ''Now your 65, hurry up to 70 and die you greedy fvcker''.

It tells me that we don't value our elderly, they've become a burden to us.

I don't care if my elderly neighbours are racking it in still, or are bearly keeping the wolves from the door. I value them all, I cherish the contribution they've made to Ireland and I believe their last years should be made as comfortable and less stressful as possible.

As for the rest of the budget, I've other view's on that but not as strong as I feel about the medical card.

I feel the government done a despicable, greedy and uncaring thing - BASTARDS.

EX-FF voter here.

I'm not one to believe a sneaky wagon like harney on the amounts that this will affect but when Tony O'Reilly is entitled to a medical card there's a problem. Our health system is fundamentally f*****d though, regardless of whos on the medical

dade

vinylmesh wrote: »

You're saying we should punish those that were wise enough to save up for their retirement?

that's how i read it too, so someone put some cash together for when the where not working. My father in law will now face this, he has recently been made redundant at retirement age, with 40 years in the company he received a half decent "retirement" fund. but he is expected to live on this with his wife and maybe the pension an pay all his medical bills. it's farcical

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Seemingly this €10 tax on flights is not payable on planes with less than 20 seats.

So the super rich jet set don't have to pay it!

FF looking out for their friends once again:mad:

I'm wondering is this tax maybe against the equality act? i mean those suffering from disability are also exempt from the fee as are people living on the islands off galway etc, so me and an able bodied dubliner have to pay it so am I not being discriminated against because i'm not and islander and also because i don't suffer from a disability?

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Likewise. So sick of this country.

too right seriously thinking of getting out now, i think the final nail will be if they try a sneaky mid year mini budget

is_that_so

Bambi wrote: »

Again that was invented by haughey to buy some OAP votes.

Im all for free fogey transport but the medical card should be means linked

The Haughey thing was part of a Govt plan to address a whole range of issues covering education, health and industry that allowed us to get going. Much as it galls some people there was at a time when he was doing some good for the country.

Personally think the car for over 70s was a very poorly thought-out scheme and one that really only seems to benefit doctors. Pure vote-buying for sure but the basic principle of it , is not unreasonable.

One of the unforeseen or foreseen effects if you are in Govt. is that over 70s now will also have to pay the Health levy of 2%. While they had a card they were not liable. Now they get a 3% tax bill (Health levy + income levy) on top of the loss of 5% of the interest on any savings they might have, while the Govt. works out whether they qualify or not.

Cookie_Monster

is_that_so wrote: »

One of the unforeseen or foreseen effects if you are in Govt. is that over 70s now will also have to pay the Health levy of 2%. While they had a card they were not liable. Now they get a 3% tax bill (Health levy + income levy) on top of the loss of 5% of the interest on any savings they might have, while the Govt. works out whether they qualify or not.

Ouch, that's really bad!

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

I'd just like to clarify this. I wouldn't argue that the proposed means testing for medical cards is probably going to be a complete cock up. I just believe that there's nothing wrong with means testing in theory. It's just the actual threshold used that will be a problem.

My father is a retired shift engineer from the ESB, his pension would be a lot more than the average industrial take home which would automatically leave him without a medical card.

He dropped out of the VHI scheme when the free medical for over 70ies came into effect. His wife is confined to a private nursing home in South Dublin at a cost of €1200 a week which is almost double his pension when psychotherapy and wheelchair taxi fares are taken into consideration.

His savings will last probably at the very latest another year. He may be then forced to sell the family home where other dependant members of the family still live.

I would like to hear Mary Harneys answers to where my father now stands.

javaboy

Bambi wrote: »

I'm not one to believe a sneaky wagon like harney on the amounts that this will affect but when Tony O'Reilly is entitled to a medical card there's a problem. Our health system is fundamentally f*****d though, regardless of whos on the medical

That's my point. Although it's very unlikely that someone like Tony O'Reilly would lower himself to public healthcare there are plenty of people who are getting free healthcare and don't need it. I was listening to the radio this morning and apparently some over 70's were ringing in saying they never use their medical card and have private healthcare but are angry that this entitlement is being taken from them. There's something slightly wrong there.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

My father is a retired shift engineer from the ESB, his pension would be a lot more than the average industrial take home which would automatically leave him without a medical card.

He dropped out of the VHI scheme 7 years ago when the free medical for over 70ies came into effect. His wife is confined to a private nursing home in South Dublin at a cost of €1200 a week which is almost double his pension when psychotherapy and wheelchaire taxi fares are taken into consideration.

His savings will last probably at the very most another year. He may be then forced to sell the family home where other dependant members of the family still live.

I would like to hear Mary Harneys answers to where my father now stands.

It will be interesting to see all right. Some of the policies definitely seem to have been rushed into the budget without proper planning. I heard Brian Lenihan on the radio yesterday talking to a caller about the parking space charges. He was shaky to say the least on the details of the proposal.

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

It will be interesting to see all right. Some of the policies definitely seem to have been rushed into the budget without proper planning. I heard Brian Lenihan on the radio yesterday talking to a caller about the parking space charges. He was shaky to say the least on the details of the proposal.

The budget was unplanned and rushed with the minimum of thought put into it, in particularly hitting out at most vulnerable in society, I.E the poorer and the elderly.

It was like someone hard up for cash rooting for change in between the seat gaps of an old car.

Cookie_Monster

If you listen to any of them on the radio, they cannot answer any of the questions directly and go off on a tangent to some other part of the budget. Hookie is particular is getting really annoyed at them and is even shouting them down sometimes to get them to stop the PR BS

Steve

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would like to hear Mary Harneys answers to where my father now stands.

He's buggered. I heard this discussed on the radio yesterday.
Went like this:

Govt.: Here ya go mate, free medical card because we're a great govt. and we want to take care of you.

Pensioner: wohoo! - no more medical bills, fcuk you VHI, shove yer policy (that I've been paying all my life) up yer jaxxie!!1

VHI: fair enough /cancels policy.

- a few years later -

Govt.: well actually we were just kidding /yoinks medical card from pensioners fist.

Pensioner: wha? wait? no?

Pensioner: Sorry VHI, can I come back now, I need medical cover... please?

VHI: fcuk you mate! you're old and have pre-existing conditions and we won't cover you...

Pensioner: but I was with you for 30 years....

VHI: pffft... new policy is a new policy mate.


:mad::mad::mad::mad:

javaboy

SteveC wrote: »

Pensioner: Sorry VHI, can I come back now, I need medical cover... please?

VHI: fcuk you mate! you're old and have pre-existing conditions and we won't cover you...

Pensioner: but I was with you for 30 years....

VHI: pffft... new policy is a new policy mate.

Good point. The issue of pre-existing conditions is going to be very interesting. You can't knock VHI for their "new policy is a new policy" policy though.

Cookie_Monster

javaboy wrote: »

You can't knock VHI for their "new policy is a new policy" policy though.

your policy of not knocking VHI for their policy of a new policy is a new policy goes against my policy of knocking the VHI policy of a new policy is a new policy

dade

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

If you listen to any of them on the radio, they cannot answer any of the questions directly and go off on a tangent to some other part of the budget.

I was watching them on the TV3 News with yer man Vincent brown over the last few nights, and every time a question was put to them and i mean a simple yes no question like do you think X is fair they waffled on and didn't answer the question at all.

javaboy

dade wrote: »

I was watching them on the TV3 News with yer man Vincent brown over the last few nights, and every time a question was put to them and i mean a simple yes no question like do you think X is fair they waffled on and didn't answer the question at all.

Ah that's all politicians in fairness. There's no deniability in a straight yes or no. You could ask them something really simple like "Do you agree with murdering every second baby born to appease the Sun Gods?" and they still wouldn't give a straight no.

They never know when they might have to row back on a previous answer. In the second US presidential debate this year, a question was asked and the moderator specifically said it was a Yes or No question and to only give a one word answer. Yet they still both rabbited on for 2 minutes.

On the other hand it could just be a simple case of Irish politicians not having a clue about the details of the budget!

Marksie

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would like to hear Mary Harneys answers to where my father now stands.

Did she say that changes to the retirment home payments meant you could give part of your house to pay?

The conservative government did something similar in the UK and people had to sell family homes. I believe the retirement homes were forced to give the money back as it was challenged a couple of years ago.

ART6

Mairt wrote: »

I'm not even saying your wrong, but here's why I believe that the medical card for the elderly should have been left alone.

Those monies could have been drawn back from other means, ie the ATM charge being reduced from €10 per year to €5-. Like, who gives a flying fvck. (to name but one)

But there's not only that. What kind of message those this send out to the elderly?.

I'll tell you what it reads like to me, ''Now your 65, hurry up to 70 and die you greedy fvcker''.

It tells me that we don't value our elderly, they've become a burden to us.

I don't care if my elderly neighbours are racking it in still, or are bearly keeping the wolves from the door. I value them all, I cherish the contribution they've made to Ireland and I believe their last years should be made as comfortable and less stressful as possible.

As for the rest of the budget, I've other view's on that but not as strong as I feel about the medical card.

I feel the government done a despicable, greedy and uncaring thing - BASTARDS.

EX-FF voter here.

I agree 100% +. Lenihan has managed to pull the cruellest, dirtiest, most cynical trick that I would have thought was beyond even FF ministers. OK, some pensioners may be in the fortunate position of being able to pay, but many, having had their pension schemes destroyed by FF economics and their state pensions put under strain by the government approved heating and electricity costs etc, will be unable to. If there was any natural justice in this world, when the first pensioner dies because he/she couldn't afford medical care, Lenihan should be arrested and jailed for the rest of his miserable life. Like you, an ex FF voter here too. I sincerely hope they get wiped out at the next election.

I'm writing to our local TD (Martin Cullen) in a few days, when I've calmed down a bit, pointing that out strongly.:mad:

Dinter

Tbh I work purely on the understanding that when I'm too old to continue the State will step in and look after me. It's their most important responsibility as they do nothing else right. Now they're shirking that too, the fukin slimy scumbags.

Rebeller

This incompetent shower of cretins need to be forced from office.

10 years of total and utter blatant mismanagement and squandering and wastage of our tax euros.

And still the forever FFers will tug the forelock, make excuses and proudly declare their intention to vote for them again next time around.

Wake up people. You owe no loyalty to political parties or gombeen incompetents like Cowen, Lenihan and co.

CONSUMERS could be slapped with increased bank charges after the Government last night left the door open for financial institutions to pass on to customers the cost of the controversial bailout scheme

THE super-rich who own private jets will not have to pay the new air travel tax, the Government has confirmed

HALF of homeowners who purchased in the last three years will be left owing more than their houses are worth.

There's not much point us all bitching about it here on an internet forum. We have the power to rid ourselves of these utter contemptible criminal excreta.

Let's force them out of office. Let's lay siege to Leinster House and Government Buildings.

skelliser

lenihan said before the budget " we must protect the most vulnerable in society"
after children the most vulnerable people in society are the elderly
and he just shafted them.

javaboy

ART6 wrote: »

If there was any natural justice in this world, when the first pensioner dies because he/she couldn't afford medical care, Lenihan should be arrested and jailed for the rest of his miserable life. Like you, an ex FF voter here too.

I think FF voters should be arrested and jailed too for aiding and abetting! You'll get a reduced sentence though since you're an ex-FF voter.

I sincerely hope they get wiped out at the next election.

I wouldn't count on it tbh. As long as people continue to put charisma over competence when voting, this crap will continue.

javaboy

Rebeller wrote: »

CONSUMERS could be slapped with increased bank charges after the Government last night left the door open for financial institutions to pass on to customers the cost of the controversial bailout scheme

In fairness there's very little the government can do to stop them passing it on. At the end of the day the banks are companies looking for a profit. If they have a big expense like the money they have to give the govt. they will naturally try to make that up by charging more to customers somewhere along the line.

It would take unprecedented government meddling to stop them getting that money from customers somehow.

Dyr

trust me, these c**ts will be re-elected and they know it.

Eoin

Even if that's the case, the Greens may not - and if I am not mistaken, they were needed for this government in the first place.

SEPT 23 1989

Rebeller wrote: »

This incompetent shower of cretins need to be forced from office.

10 years of total and utter blatant mismanagement and squandering and wastage of our tax euros.

And still the forever FFers will tug the forelock, make excuses and proudly declare their intention to vote for them again next time around.

Wake up people. You owe no loyalty to political parties or gombeen incompetents like Cowen, Lenihan and co.

CONSUMERS could be slapped with increased bank charges after the Government last night left the door open for financial institutions to pass on to customers the cost of the controversial bailout scheme

THE super-rich who own private jets will not have to pay the new air travel tax, the Government has confirmed

HALF of homeowners who purchased in the last three years will be left owing more than their houses are worth.

There's not much point us all bitching about it here on an internet forum. We have the power to rid ourselves of these utter contemptible criminal excreta.

Let's force them out of office. Let's lay siege to Leinster House and Government Buildings.[/QUOTE

A 1990 Poll Tax riot type situation might make this corrupt shower of crooks see that the people are raging about the total waste that was made of this countrys boom,these scumbags have no fear they think they are untouchable,
the more time goes by and times get so much harder the people of this great Republic will see that we were mugged by Fianna Fail,banks and developers:mad: