Budget 2009

AngryHippie

Not gonna lie to ya.....I'm glad I'm in Australia, where they have an 11 Billion surplus to handle all of the same measures above, But I don't agree with how the money is being spent, did the govt. consider letting the cowboy builders go tits up, buy the properties at knock down rates, and wipe out the socially affordable waiting list? Whats the situation really like over there ? Panicky ? with a slight smell of the 1980's ?

amacachi

nesf wrote: »

Does the grant cover the registration fee? I can't remember. I do take the point though that it's making third level education for their children less attractive for poor families with the changes in child benefit. It's a small change (with child benefit) but for the worst off it'll be definitely noticed from the weekly income.

I'm not sure whether it's the grant or the free fees scheme that covers the registration fee but one of them does. Most colleges "insist" on the registration fee being paid upfront, but in some places showing a medical card is seen as proof that it will be paid for you.


In my own opinion this budget is a joke and I don't see why it was called early for what it does.
The whole Social Welfare needs to be restructured. The fact that I, living bill free with my parents gets the same in Jobseeker's Allowance as say, a father seperated from his kids and paying child support is riciculous. I get over half as much as a family with two parents and 4 kids, where's the fairness in that? And if I moved out I'd have my rent paid for, it's a joke.

Then of course there's a chance my 83 year old granny next door may lose her medical card. We'll have to see how the means test works first, but it's a joke.

The money for new homes? Let me guess, buy some over-priced houses and give them to people who have never worked in their lives and probably never will? Yeah, that's what we need to get the country going again.

There were some tough decisions made, but Christ above to say it's a harsh budget under the supposed circumstances is ridiculous.

As an aside, if falling property prices were left out, would we still technically be in a "recession"?

amacachi

AngryHippie wrote: »

did the govt. consider letting the cowboy builders go tits up, buy the properties at knock down rates, and wipe out the socially affordable waiting list?

Ah now come on, they're hardly gonna let their mates suffer.

nesf

amacachi wrote: »

Then of course there's a chance my 83 year old granny next door may lose her medical card. We'll have to see how the means test works first, but it's a joke.

Lenihan commented that two thirds of pensioners would keep their medical card so they might have a reasonable means test for it. I can't see them taking it off people on just the State pension. Well assuming they're ever planning on running for re-election that is.


I don't actually disagree with them means testing it (if it's done reasonably). I mean if we're going to give State support to pensioners it should be focused on the worst off. We have a limited amount of money to spend on pensioners and it's pointless giving money or benefits to the wealthiest of them at the expense of the poorest. I actually find it bizarre that people can complain on one hand about levies on the lowest paid and then means testing state benefits. We can't dish out money to everyone and keep taxes low we have to means test if it's going to be fair or the lowest paid are going to have to have higher taxes. The former seems a lot more palatable than the latter to me anyway.

luckat

nesf wrote: »

I don't actually disagree with them means testing it (if it's done reasonably).

This is how it's done. You fill out a form and apply, and a civil servant comes to your house and sits there eyeing your furniture and asking intrusive questions and refusing tea and biscuits with a cold smile and taking notes on a clipboard. Perfectly reasonable. And for an old person, frightening and humiliating.

efb

turgon wrote: »

Presenter on Radio One had a neat one - something to the effect of "how can you justify the cuts on over 70's when professor Drum and co will be getting a pay rise?" She talked ****, even mentioned RTE executive. Shes another tosser of the lot.

Well anyway lets look at the reliefs:

• One third reduction in commercial property tax
• Incentives for people to buy homes

I wonder who this budget really looks after?

This is Fianna Fails mess, yet I am being punished with higher petrol costs (not diesel I wonder why??????) and a 50% retarded increase in "registration fees" (yes I know its a bollox term, just another stealth tax)

Yeah, who are they looking after??? Not the ones who are desperate to get a foot on the property ladder, because they cant get finance from the banks because the credit's dried up, or the people whose jobs are at risk in the construction industry, because lets face it we need more people being paid by the state, or the people who would go into negative equity because the housing market collapsed, and then default on their mortgages and default on them and put the banks at risk, which would fall on the tax payer, as the gov bailed out their rich fat cat friends, as opposed to helping avoid economic meltdown.

But boohoo for the Kids (Parents) of Middle Ireland who have to fork out more for the Non Tuition Fees and have to cut back on grinds (schools) cos their little sweetie wouldn't get into 1st orts at UCD otherwise, and then have some sort of a level playing field with the lower classes (who dont really want to go to college anyway, or work for that matter) because free fees never benefited them...


But your right, the only reason for that was so FF could give their builder friends a dig out...

DublinWriter

jor el wrote: »

Something that really pisses me off, and it wasn't touched on earlier on the Last Word (probably because it wasn't in the main announcement) is that their going to go ahead with Metro North. Where is the justification for spending an estimated €5bn on this? It hasn't even started yet, now is the time to shelve this, and not after it's cost 100s of millions in consultancy and other crap before they dig a single hole.

This I couldn't believe.

If the experience of the Luas is anything to go by, Metro North will end up costing €50bn and only deliver 3/4 of the originally planned lines.

It's a complete canard.

As for the budget overall, I can't see how taking €2bn out of the real economy helps matters.

It was a cowardly and unimaginative budget from a cowardly and unimaginative government. Calling the blanket raise in income tax a 'levy' is a akin to calling a Nuclear Meltdown an 'unrequested fission surplus'.

What was needed was a bloody cull within the Civil Service, especially within Health.

I'd ask those of you working in the Civil Service to hang your head in shame today when you take your 11.00am and 3.00pm half-hour tea breaks and remember the rest of us in the outside world who fund your unproductive bubble of unreality.

DarkJager

The people who should be most ashamed in all of this, are all the people who voted Fianna Fail back in last year. They really should be hanging their heads in absolute shame. It was clear to see what they were doing to this country, we had a chance to get them out, but as is usual in Ireland, people just said "ah **** it, sure I don't really mind em anyway".

So if you voted Fianna Fail and are now whinging about this budget, give yourself a very very hard slap on the back.

Antrim_Man

muincav wrote: »

child benefit should have been means tested,
ministers should only get smart cars and bikes and lay off at least half the cabinet, they are not worth a sh*te anyway. This country has too many over paid politicians and too many retired politicians on big pensions they dont deserve.
We have an Army who couldnt save themselves never mind the country, so get rid of 90% of them.
Make all people do at least some kind of work for their dole....

and last but not least shoot anyone who ever asks you to vote for the Green party again (traitors):mad:

Without a doubt people on long term dole handouts should be made to earn their handouts by doing environmental work. The litter in this country is a disgrace.

is_that_so

Not wholly impressed by this. Sure tough medicine was needed but it's like someone took a large scythe to the economy. Overall the impression I got from it is that it was more about getting money to cover the money we've been overspending for some time. At times like this the true cost of benchmarking can be seen.

So much of this budget seems to be contingent on the "recovery" in 2010 and unemployment being under 8% and inflation being low.

Disappointed that Metro North did not at least get some type of review. Looks very, very expensive and I would have thought a school building programme and a focus on other infrastructure had more scope to help the economy. There was also very little on closing tax loopholes and addressing tax relief inequities, especially with large scale pension contributions.

Personally dislike the political spin on the levy and the fact that it has been framed as Part 1 of 2 or maybe 3, after the fact. That to me suggests a government that really hasn't a clue what's going to happen and will come up with a new plan as the s**t hits the fan.

I also disliked the drip-drip approach with the "see Minister X for more details on specific measures". Yet this is the same Government who boldly laid out Transport 21 and the massive outlay of the NDP. Not a lot of boldness here at all.

is_that_so

muincav wrote: »

child benefit should have been means tested,

There is an argument for at least one universal benefit and child benefit covers it well. The Commission on Taxation will be looking at how child benefit can be determined as income and therefore become taxable.

DarkJager

DarkJager wrote: »

So if you voted Fianna Fail and are now whinging about this budget, give yourself a very very hard slap on the back.

I don't think an FF candidate on my ballot paper got a number from me for various reasons and I'm not whinging about this budget..

It was all they could do in the unforeseenable circumstances.
For sure we could argue that they should have been slashing spending long before there was an international crisis.But they are no different than Irish people as a whole in that respect really.
Many Irish households would be in deep deep trouble if they got hit with a sudden 30% rise in expediture/fall in income.
Not enough of them plan.Too many of them like the government live for the now.
They forget the rainy day.

I'm not surprised governments are any different and I'm not falling for the faux shock of opposition parties.
If they were in power they'd have varied the nature of the mess but they'd still have a mess.

dresden8

Deleted User wrote: »

unforeseenable circumstances.

Well, I forsaw it. I must be freakin' brilliant.

Or maybe I just listened to the OECD report from 2005 (I think) which said the economy was too dependant on construction and when the downturn came we'd be fecked. A lot of people were forseeing this.

Of course Bertie told all of us to feck off and hang ourselves. And his pack of muppets who are in charge now stood full square behind him.

dresden8

dresden8 wrote: »

Well, I forsaw it. I must be freakin' brilliant.

You foresaw $150 oil (albeit temporary but damaging none the less)the credit crunch,the crazy U.S derivitives,the silly UK and European bankers that bought them back in 2005?

WoW

jimmysull

We had 10 yeras of record economic growth from 1996 to 2006 and now we have nothing to show for it.
Was nothing put away for a rainy day? or did they think the growth would keep going forever?

dresden8

Deleted User wrote: »

You foresaw $150 oil (albeit temporary but damaging none the less)the credit crunch,the crazy U.S derivitives,the silly UK and European bankers that bought them back in 2005?

WoW

Yeah, who would have thought stuff would have happened in the world to disrupt Bertie and Brian's never ending boom where the whole world became a landlord, owned 10 properties each and never had any problems whatsoever.

Who could have foreseen an oil crisis, it's not like that ever happened before, who could have foreseen a bubble burst, that's never happened ever.

Oh wait.........

NYC353

I lived in Ireland up to 9 months ago until I lost my job.
The reality is that Bertie & Brian pumped the property sector to give the impression that the boom was still in place for the election in 2007. The boom was over, manufacturing jobs were being lost but Irish people were given a false sense of security by Bertie's pro developer regime.
The real incompetence was while they created this false economy they moved the tax base towrds property at the same time and became dependent on the stamp duty 'drug'. You are now getting the double whammy. That is why this crisis is hitting Irish taxpeyers harder than most other taxpayers around the world.
Here in the US, some of the headlines are "Irish tax raised to fund bank bailout"

jimmysull

Yes but I bet Bertie would say it wouldn't ahve been so bad if he was Taoiseach........ he would say that wouldn't he

DarkJager

Anybody listening to Pat Kenny? Lenihan is on trying to defend the budget....

markpb

Deleted User wrote: »

You foresaw $150 oil (albeit temporary but damaging none the less)the credit crunch,the crazy U.S derivitives,the silly UK and European bankers that bought them back in 2005?

We have our own property & financial crisis that would have hit, even if the international crisis hadn't. We've simply switched one set of problems for another. Our property bubble was warned about almost four years ago, the American property bubble was warned about three years, the subprime market in America was always a risk (by definition), the price of oil has been a risk for a while now. None of this was unexpected, much though FF would like us to believe it was.

DarkJager

Lenihan wrote:

We are in a very difficult situation that is not of our making

You have got to be ****ting me....

NYC353

DarkJager wrote: »

Anybody listening to Pat Kenny? Lenihan is on trying to defend the budget....

Can't get it right now. But it reminds me I saw the Green guy Eamon Ryan on RTE.ie last night trying to defend it. He said he was "proud" to be part of the collective tough decisions without hitting "education, health and social welfare"
Obviously the Greens weren't part of the decision to hit
- Pupil teacher ratios
- Third level registration fees
- Medical card restrictions
- Child benefit cuts
- Child supplement cuts
etc etc etc

I lived in South Dublin in 2007 and voted for that guy, I won't be taking him seriously again!!!

To be fair the Greens weren't part of Bertie's pro developer regime that caused this mess but they have become FF puppets

DarkJager

If you can get RTE, its getting interesting now. He's really taking fire....

jimmysull

NYC353 wrote: »

To be fair the Greens weren't part of Bertie's pro developer regime that caused this mess but they have become FF puppets

True you can't blame the greens for the mess but they sure as hell aren't going to get us out of it.
They'll agree to anything just to keep their ministerial jobs

Gandalf23

Deleted User wrote: »

It was all they could do in the unforeseenable circumstances. Many Irish households would be in deep deep trouble if they got hit with a sudden 30% rise in expediture/fall in income.

The situation this country is in was not unforeseen. A number of economists, politicians and other commentators predicted a lot of this mess. I seem to remember they were accused by the current FF government of talking down the economy.

Deleted User wrote: »

But they are no different than Irish people as a whole in that respect really.

They are different. Very different.

They are supposed to be the government of this country, and they have access to resources and information that the rest of us dont.

NYC353

Gandalf23 wrote: »

The situation this country is in was not unforeseen. A number of economists, politicians and other commentators predicted a lot of this mess. I seem to remember they were accused by the current FF government of talking down the economy.

I think I recall Bertie telling them they should commit suicide?

Bertie bought the last election with taxpayers money by continuing to increase tax incentives to developers. Let's call it as it is. We are now reaping the "benefits"

luckat

About time the politicians started thinking in terms of getting more work into this country. People need jobs.

They should ditch the whole property disaster and concentrate on work.

When the prices settle to some kind of normative level people will start buying houses again. But for now, it's jobs, jobs, jobs that are needed - good jobs, secure jobs, jobs with decent salaries, useful jobs, international jobs.

Gandalf23

Gandalf23 wrote: »

The situation this country is in was not unforeseen. A number of economists, politicians and other commentators predicted a lot of this mess. I seem to remember they were accused by the current FF government of talking down the economy.

The credit crunch caused by Sub prime lending in the U.S was never predicted by commentators here.
It's had severe effects even on Russia's economy...hardly a bastion of high property prices!

They are supposed to be the government of this country, and they have access to resources and information that the rest of us dont.

We don't have a financial version of the patriot act in operation here.
For sure the Irish central bank and the regulator would have been aware of the nitty gritty of Irish lending and would have reported to the government on this.
However in a climate up to this year where said banks were making billions in profit and whose balance sheets were full and healthy,they did not have the tools to foresee what was going on behind closed international doors ie those crazy derivitives which were the uiltimate bomb that went off under international bank to bank lending and the cause of this crisis.

Interestingly Irish banks for the most part didn't buy into those [UK and European banks did a lot].

dresden wrote:

Yeah, who would have thought stuff would have happened in the world to disrupt Bertie and Brian's never ending boom where the whole world became a landlord, owned 10 properties each and never had any problems whatsoever.

Who could have foreseen an oil crisis, it's not like that ever happened before, who could have foreseen a bubble burst, that's never happened ever.

Oh wait.........

Stripping out the anti FF rhetoric,you've just had another empty rant there.Theres no way one could have expected speculators to bid up oil by 300% in little more than a year.Ironically the net effect of that was, I've heard a lot of them bid it back down again by having to sell their stored oil contracts to raise money for other things that they couldn't raise anymore due to a problem they had a part in creating.

beatman91

jimmysull wrote: »

We had 10 yeras of record economic growth from 1996 to 2006 and now we have nothing to show for it.
Was nothing put away for a rainy day? or did they think the growth would keep going forever?

How can anybody be surprised at what is happening?

Do we not remember the Port Tunnel which we don't know how much is cost to build!

Things like our minister for Health flying state helicopters to open friends pubs!

The same roads dug up and repaired time after time! While I was in college the same road was dug up 6 times.

This Government has been squandering money from day one, we all knew about this, but nobody cared because the gave a lot to themselves and bit to us. There were lots of jobs and most people said Bertie is good to the people, he lookeds after the old.

How about holding elections on a Thursday so students who are away couldn't vote.

Well I say we deserve this, I personally didn't vote for them but most of the people here did.

So this is a nice lesson in life, and when things get back to better times we will quickly forget again.

Boggle

You foresaw $150 oil (albeit temporary but damaging none the less

Everybody with an ounce of cop on foresaw a surge in oil prices - even haughey in his old speech said that we were too dependent on the stuff and yet nothing had been done to insulate ourselves.

the credit crunch

Let me see: every banks lends wildly and recklessly and you expected something else to happen?!?

This whole mess was easily predictable to everyone and anyone - jesus, every business man I know who was around in the 80's has been saying for years that this whole mess was gonna come crashing down around our ears and yet for some reason we are to believe that our politicians could not see that?? Get real.