Foreign Nationals flying in for the day to sign on the dole

Victor_M

Mena wrote: »

You'll have every single, bar none, multi-national company exiting the country the very second anyone implements anything as silly as this. Can you imagine asking Microsoft to pay an additional 10 euro tax on every hundred euro they send, out of all the millions and millions?

Think it through please.

Or are you suggesting one law for the corporates and one for the common worker? We have all seen exactly where that gets us.



I pointed this out, in detail, a couple of hundred posts ago and it was essentially ignored, because you know, the foreign nationals have access to government supplied swan powered warp speed and stuff. No Ryanair for them.

You were ignored because you selectively chose flights that were prohibitively expensive so as to re-enforce your arguement.

I responded to your almost infantile example with actual flights a hundred or so posts ago.

"I did a quick Ryanair search from Krakow to Dublin and return a couple of months in advance and it's only €70 all in return, get the aircoach or your mates to pick you up and it's a very cheap round trip. That €130 or so (plus any extras that they may be 'entitled' to) goes a long way in Poland."

Finally something is going to be done about the welfare abuse

Tchaikovsky

What about the thousands of Irish currently in the US, Canada, Australia and NZ who are sending wads of cash back home??

Nodin

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

What about the thousands of Irish currently in the US, Canada, Australia and NZ who are sending wads of cash back home??

Shhhh. Don't mention Irish illegals either.

Tchaikovsky

The cheeky scallywags

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

Shhhh. Don't mention Irish illegals either.

There'll be a few more of them too in the next few years, but of course we are different.

Westwood

weekly signing and customs stamping passports of dates and times of immigrants comings and going and being crossed checked with the dole when they sign on to see if they have been outside the country and for how long will resolve the issue.
if youve been in poland for three days nursing your sick mother then you cant be looking for work in ireland so no dole this week for you. have a nice life.. Buh Bye

Nodin

K-9 wrote: »

There'll be a few more of them too in the next few years, but of course we are different.

Absolutely.

Our sausages are shyte, our stout is good, and we tend to be hairier of arse and larger in the belly.

Mena

Victor_M wrote: »

You were ignored because you selectively chose flights that were prohibitively expensive so as to re-enforce your arguement.

I responded to your almost infantile example with actual flights a hundred or so posts ago.

"I did a quick Ryanair search from Krakow to Dublin and return a couple of months in advance and it's only €70 all in return, get the aircoach or your mates to pick you up and it's a very cheap round trip. That €130 or so (plus any extras that they may be 'entitled' to) goes a long way in Poland."

While my argument was slightly infantile, to match the tone of this thread and the utter stupidity of a majority of the posts, you need to compare like with like. My examples were from Prague, not Krakow for a start. And there was nothing but a random selection of dates and fares, which for the date picked were all identical.

While I freely admit there is widespread abuse of the social welfare system, by nationals and non-nationals alike, if anyone is naive enough to believe this flying from Poland once a week to collect a paltry 200 euro is economically viable now then it would be somewhat pointless to even argue the point.

The fares between the two locations range from 75 euro return to 250 euro return depending on when you book them, and remember, you need to do this once a week, every week.

Victor_M wrote: »

Finally something is going to be done about the welfare abuse

This is where the main problem occurs and it's about time the Government got their head out of their collective asses and stopped it.

luckat

Welfare abuse has been going on for a long, long time. Tis well I remember one of the inner city regeneration schemes.

It was in the 1980s, and the local guys were salivating at the idea of work, having been workles for years - and these would be skilled carpenters, builders, plumbers, electricians, who were surviving on the odd household nixer.

But when the builders turned up, they had their own crew, and it was 'no locals need apply'. All tight as a tick, not a crevice through which any Dub could slide to get a bit of work.

They were all Northerners.

Every Thursday morning the site was dead quiet. Word was that the crew were going home once a week to sign on. As well as taking their nice government-backed (taxpayer-backed) wages for the urban regeneration scheme in Dublin.

MySelf56

Westwood wrote: »

weekly signing and customs stamping passports of dates and times of immigrants comings and going and being crossed checked with the dole when they sign on to see if they have been outside the country and for how long will resolve the issue.
if youve been in poland for three days nursing your sick mother then you cant be looking for work in ireland so no dole this week for you. have a nice life.. Buh Bye

That voilates EU freemovement of people legislation. YOU CANNOT DO THAT ITS ILLIGAL.

Terry

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

What about the thousands of Irish currently in the US, Canada, Australia and NZ who are sending wads of cash back home??

What about them?
I don't know of any Irish people who are sending money home. Do you?

luckat

MySelf56 wrote: »

That voilates EU freemovement of people legislation. YOU CANNOT DO THAT ITS ILLIGAL.

Really? It's illegal to cross-check people's travel against their dole claims? Why so? It's not as if you're stopping them travelling.

In fact, what is the law about the dole? Back in the day, you could live in Ireland and claim various supports from France if you were French, say, or vice versa - but is this still true, or do you have to claim in the country where you're resident?

Mena

MySelf56 wrote: »

That voilates EU freemovement of people legislation. YOU CANNOT DO THAT ITS ILLIGAL.

While I cannot myself state whether or not this contravenes any existing Irish or EU statutes, to be fair, if you're in Poland, or the UK or some other country, you don't fulfil the requirements for Jobseekers Benefit. Specifically, being available and looking for work. The criteria are listed as follows:

* Be unemployed (you must be fully unemployed or unemployed for at least 3 days in 6)
* Be under 66 years of age
* Have enough social insurance (PRSI) contributions
* Be capable of work
* Be available for and genuinely seeking seek work
* Have a substantial loss of employment and as a result be unemployed for at least 3 days in 6


I guess it could be argued that you're looking for work in another member state, and I'm not sure of the regulations surrounding Social Welfare can/do accommodate this, but as far as I am concerned, it's taking the piss and you should not be eligible, though I do wonder what "seek" work is :P

luckat wrote: »

or do you have to claim in the country where you're resident?

As far as I am aware, you claim from the country you are legally resident in.

gcgirl

Terry wrote: »

What about them?
I don't know of any Irish people who are sending money home. Do you?

Nobody sends cash home!! Thats a gas one!! Anyone i know overseas are having a ball as for sending cash not in your nelly!!

MySelf56

luckat wrote: »

Really? It's illegal to cross-check people's travel against their dole claims? Why so? It's not as if you're stopping them travelling.

In fact, what is the law about the dole? Back in the day, you could live in Ireland and claim various supports from France if you were French, say, or vice versa - but is this still true, or do you have to claim in the country where you're resident?

Oh dear Celtic Tiger cub,
You cannot stamp another EU citizen passport with immigration stamp. That voilates rule of "Freemovement of people". When the celtic tiger cubs went to former soviet republics for Stag parties will their passports get stammped, answer is NO. So they same rule applies here. get it??

You have to come up with differnt idea to tackle this issue. Not by stammping on thier passport which is voilates EU citizens. End the story.

Mena

MySelf56 wrote: »

Oh dear Celtic Tiger cub,
You cannot stamp another EU citizen passport with immigration stamp. That voilates rule of "Freemovement of people". When the celtic tiger cubs went to former soviet republics for Stag parties will their passports get stammped, answer is NO. So they same rule applies here. get it??

You have to come up with differnt idea to tackle this issue. Not by stammping on thier passport which is voilates EU citizens. End the story.

Can you actually point to EU legislation to back this up? Reason I ask is that for an EU citizen to be granted Irish Naturalisation they need to have lived in Ireland for a period of time (usually 5 of the past 9 years). The only way for the INIS / Justice department to verify this is via passport stamps.

MySelf56

Mena wrote: »

Can you actually point to EU legislation to back this up? Reason I ask is that for an EU citizen to be granted Irish Naturalisation they need to have lived in Ireland for a period of time (usually 5 of the past 9 years). The only way for the INIS / Justice department to verify this is via passport stamps.

You are confusing with somethings else here, some body pointed that using Airport stamps one can track their travelling activity. Very great, but my point as EU citizen you CANNOT stamp on other EU citizenpassport.

Free movement within the EU - a fundamental right

You next point to your EU citizen becoming Irish Citizen, If you EU citizen living here, his habitual residency can be quantified by using his PPS number.

If you citizen working/living here they must have PPS number, INIS can easily check their taxes and socieal welfare status. Good character is also vital to becoming naturalised citizen. So i dont see why you need passport stamps anyway???

More over 5 years residence in 9 years is not just only for EU citizens its also applies for NON-EU citizens.

Mena

MySelf56 wrote: »

You are confusing with somethings else here, some body pointed that using Airport stamps one can track their travelling activity. Very great, but my point as EU citizen you CANNOT stamp on other EU citizenpassport.

Free movement within the EU - a fundamental right

I don't think I am confusing anything here. I understand and accept the free movement principal, but the UK and Ireland are not part of the Schengen agreement.

MySelf56 wrote: »

You next point to your EU citizen becoming Irish Citizen, If you EU citizen living here, his habitual residency can be quantified by using his PPS number.

If you citizen working/living here they must have PPS number, INIS can easily check their taxes and socieal welfare status. Good character is also vital to becoming naturalised citizen. So i dont see why you need passport stamps anyway???

Alright I concede this point. The requirements are in fact different for EU and non EU nationals. EU Nationals can use taxes, bills etc to prove residency while non-EU nationals cannot. Only just saw this.

MySelf56 wrote: »

More over 5 years residence in 9 years is not just only for EU citizens its also applies for NON-EU citizens.

I know this and this point was never in contention.

MySelf56

Mena wrote: »

I don't think I am confusing anything here. I understand and accept the free movement principal, but the UK and Ireland are not part of the Schengen agreement.

Agree UK and Ireland is not part of Schengen agreement, but still part of EU. So UK or Ireland should respect fundamental right EU free movement. For example if non-eu citizen has Schegen visitor visa they can roam around schegen countries but CANNOT come in Ireland or UK.

Mena wrote: »

Alright I concede this point. The requirements are in fact different for EU and non EU nationals. EU Nationals can use taxes, bills etc to prove residency while non-EU nationals cannot. Only just saw this.

Both has to prove their proof taxes (bills doesnt matter) and good character vetting from Garda. But Non-EU should have their immigration stamps in order.

dsmythy

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

What about the thousands of Irish currently in the US, Canada, Australia and NZ who are sending wads of cash back home??

Well we'll leave it to the US, Canada, Australia and NZ to look at it as they see fit in their own countries.

luckat

You don't need to stamp the passport, just to scan it - as is done in Britain every time I go through Gatwick, and no one's talking about any abuse of my rights as an EU citizen.

Tchaikovsky

If you go to any of the Scandinavian countries, they never scan your passport... in my experience anyway. I flew into Sweden, got a train to Norway and Denmark and a boat to Finland - no passport checks at all!

Mena

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

If you go to any of the Scandinavian countries, they never scan your passport... in my experience anyway. I flew into Sweden, got a train to Norway and Denmark and a boat to Finland - no passport checks at all!

That's thanks to the Schengen agreement.

MySelf56

luckat wrote: »

You don't need to stamp the passport, just to scan it - as is done in Britain every time I go through Gatwick, and no one's talking about any abuse of my rights as an EU citizen.

I am not sure Gatwick system not meant to catch social welfare benefits, its for mostly for so called “War on Terror” and other things(football hooligans) as far as I know. I can see from daily news sources UK benefit scams here and there, UK is not immune to benefit scams.
On our case you have to build a brand new IT system, which stores details of all the passenger details who are arriving in country and that feed has to link up to social welfare system. If they link up also you have to built highly intelligent system which is able to filter out people who are claiming benefits from airport thousands of records feed. It will be highly expensive operation but doesn't give you exact pictures. On top how you are going to say somebody, you are in benefits you cant go anywhere?? Which is new investment all together, no way govt. cant spend that money on new system. Cost of building the system will out run savings can make using this system.

As somebody said it is blown out of proportion all together.

luckat

MySelf56 wrote: »

On our case you have to build a brand new IT system, which stores details of all the passenger details who are arriving in country and that feed has to link up to social welfare system.

Photocopier and a fax should do it.

watna

Terry wrote: »

What about them?
I don't know of any Irish people who are sending money home. Do you?

I send money home every month - but only to pay off a loan with an Irish bank so I'm not sure that counts.

What do you mean exactly by sending money home though - sending it to your family to help them out? If you were doing that it wouldn't get them very far. The NZD is worth so little when you convert to euros that they're wouldn't be any point sending to people.

shezzie

just wanted to say you dont have to collect your social welfare payments every week you can leave collecting it for upto six weeks therefore payment is 1224 euros approx well worth a trip over every six weeks and most foreign nationals have family here so any accomodation needed is sorted and the bus fare(not taxi) is 2-3 euro and air fare maybe 100 at most still bout 1100 not bad eh...though as much as i am against any kind of fraud they are getting away with it like many irish are getting away with other levels of social welfare fraud...there are many irish abroad though i dont think they get the handouts that are given out here...

our system can be used and abused by monkies it wouldnt take much to abuse it ... our government dont have the capacity of intelect to organise a booze up in a brewery never mind sort out any economic trouble...its only a recession we are in and savings on social welfare fraud would save an absolute fortune....

FrancieB

Fair play to them. If I could go to Poland and pick up a couple of quid for nothing then I'd do it. You cant blame them.

allthedoyles

FrancieB wrote: »

Fair play to them. If I could go to Poland and pick up a couple of quid for nothing then I'd do it. You cant blame them.

I agree .....surely if a foreign national is only collecting him Social Welfare every 6 weeks , it must be suspicious .

Its the system is wrong ..............needs reform urgently

FrancieB

I know what hes doing is wrong but I would never report him. I hope he gets away with it forever.

He jetsets to Ireland to collect his wages from the post office. 200 blips a week for nowt...