Misogynistic lines/attitudes from porn does it bother you ?

Dragan

taconnol wrote: »

I have to admit, Dragan, that I was a wee bit oblivious to male discrimination before I wandered in here & read some of your posts.

Same way when I lived in Norway, I was oblivious to the racism. Duh, I'm blond and tall. But my Vietnamese friend assured me it was alive and well.

Here's the thing though, is it really male discrimination of simply social echo's? I mean, at the end of the day females have had to be on the defensive for quite some time, so maybe it is as simple as the defensive turning into the offensive as the need for the former dies down?

I would also blame, to a large point, marketing and social solutions. They never just treat people are people, you have to be a man, or a woman, or black , or white etc.

There will always be a certain required divide between the sexes in my opinion, it's how people continue to abuse the interpreation of it that will interest me in future years.

Macha

Dragan wrote: »

Here's the thing though, is it really male discrimination of simply social echo's? I mean, at the end of the day females have had to be on the defensive for quite some time, so maybe it is as simple as the defensive turning into the offensive as the need for the former dies down?

I would also blame, to a large point, marketing and social solutions. They never just treat people are people, you have to be a man, or a woman, or black , or white etc.

There will always be a certain required divide between the sexes in my opinion, it's how people continue to abuse the interpreation of it that will interest me in future years.

So do you think there's something vengeful about women's refusal to acknowledge male discrimination? A kick in the nads for the last 4000 years?

So true about marketing. I'm not sure it should be regulated any further but we definitely need a module in school teaching kids how to interpret advertising.

Why do you think there will always be a divide? I think it's because humans are such visual creatures and it's pretty obvious when you first meet someone what gender they are.

Dragan

taconnol wrote: »

So do you think there's something vengeful about women's refusal to acknowledge male discrimination? A kick in the nads for the last 4000 years?

So true about marketing. I'm not sure it should be regulated any further but we definitely need a module in school teaching kids how to interpret advertising.

Why do you think there will always be a divide? I think it's because humans are such visual creatures and it's pretty obvious when you first meet someone what gender they are.

I don't think it's vengeful, i just think often times they don't realise it, or see it, or when they do they feel men should just "get over it" because men are supposed to be all kinds of things that a lot of us simply are not.

I mean, i have great time for you and your opinions, i think you're a clever and educated woman who has spent a good bit of time coming to the decisions you make known publically and yet you said yourself, you didn't really see it. Nothing vengeful in it with you, it maybe just wasn't something you saw as being a major issue and none of us can have our finger on every pulse!

Sure, they may be some people out there who want us to pay for the sins of our fathers but they just fall into the same catogory as sexist men in my book, simply part of the problem.

And personally i think there will always be a divide because i really want there to be one. Men and women are different, it really is that simple. Often times i think we take the wrong route, either saying those differences do not exist or they do not matter and that is a shame to me.

I think they should be celebrated and respected because it is normally these differences that make women exciting and interesting to me.

It worries me that we are getting to the point where being different is bad and should be ignored. In fact, it scares me.

If you are a woman then be proud of that fact, if you are a man then do the same....the important thing is to channel that pride into a positive for both your fellow gender and the opposite.

I think that might be the way forward.

Latchy

somethingwitty wrote: »

Being degraded makes me horny.:D

Ah , you've heard of CFNM so

Nevyn

I hope it is the way forward as both genders have wonderful qualties but I don't think it will happen until we get dicussions on these topics. We don't each socail studies and gender studies in schools or about sex/sexuality.

Reku

Alas, as I believe I posted somewhere in TLL before, it seems to be an integral part of the human condition to need to feel as though we are part of a group and for some reason that group is the better group to be part of;
religion - common theme tends to be if you're not a follower of this religion you're damned
nationality and how quick we are to complain about people of other nationalities being rude/sexist/racist/fat/terrible drivers/etc... even when our own society is far from perfect
gender - a seemingly endless blame-storming
dubs vs "boggers"
etc....

It's far less displeasing to focus on the failings of others than to acknowledge our own.
Until we can all learn to drop the need to feel somehow rightious I don't see such generalisations ending, and even then generalisations are unfortunately a fundamental part of our learning process since they greatly simplify things so I don't know if humanity can outlearn them as a species.

,8,1

Porn is a feminist product and an intrinsic part of feminist society.

What makes you say that ?

Observation of all contemporary Feminist/Matriarchal societies, including ours.

Also the fact that sexual liberalism/anarchism is a central part of feminism. From written theory to practice, sexual anarchism and feminism are indelibly linked.

Dinter

Thaedydal wrote: »

I hope it is the way forward as both genders have wonderful qualties but I don't think it will happen until we get dicussions on these topics. We don't each socail studies and gender studies in schools or about sex/sexuality.

I think that one of the main problems is that people see this huge divide between the sexes and all the gender equality classes and equality legislation you experience just highlights it by implying that not everyone is just a person. Instead they try to force some sort of harmonisation that can't be made when the very process depends on you noticing the difference even if it's just to try and quash the distinction. Ironic huh?

I grew up in a family of three sisters and three brothers and we had strict parents who were extremely fair in how they treated us. There was no discrimination between us, well except for the youngest who got away with murder. (I'll probably be ageist when I'm older!!) Anyway this instilled mutual respect between us all and I can honestly say that for me, brother and sister are both genderless terms. (I'm finding this hard to explain but basically I've never had preconceptions about their sexes when getting help with anything.) This attitude has expanded into my dealings with the world at large. I realise that this screams sexism but the only difference I find between men and women is that I find women attractive.

Regarding attractiveness though, I think, to be honest, that this is where any divide stems from. I do like to see myself as the more dominant and assertive in a relationship even if that delusion is confined to my head (and I'm self aware to know that it usually is). However I'd find it hard to see a woman as the sole breadwinner for example and would possibly resent any situation that put me there.

This need to dominate is not the old chest beating sort though. I'll gladly be dragged along with a partner's plans but I would, strangely enough feel a little peeved if she hung a set of shelves. I'd feel somehow superfluous or something. I'm sure some men like feeling more dominant, some women like being submissive, other women like being more dominant and every permutation of that.

End of the day it's up to each person to set limits on what influence their feelings will have on their day to day interaction with the opposite sex. Until the process of reproducing is confined to a laboratory then there will always be a gender divide even if that divide is not necessarily a bad thing. Personally speaking if you have no respect for the opposite sex than I don't see how self help or legislation will change it. It might make it more subversive or less intimidating but I don't see that as an actual result.

Latchy

If we were not taught not to have hang ups about our sexuality as previous generations were , when religion crept into every aspect of our lives then people might understand the subject more .We llive in more liberated times but some of the old hangs up seem to be still around .Pornography might go some way towards a better sex life or any sex life but it has being around a long long time ,just more of it now and available on request . Before internet we had and still have sex phone lines were you can pay to have any male or female say any sexual Dialogue you wish, even though she might have the phone under her chin and doing the iron while she talks to you .

Macha

TBH, no one can reach the age of 30 in this society without having some gender stereotypes ingrained on their subconscious. Some people learn about them and are more aware, but at the end of the day, I don't have a huge amount of control over my subconscious thoughts, only my conscious ones.

So, Dinter, you say that you grew up in a pretty gender neutral society but I'd say your dad was the main breadwinner, well chances are that he was/is. Then you start interacting with kids in school and the movies you watch and the lunch box you're given for school etc etc. I think that's where the more subtle stuff you're describing comes from. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, by the way. I'm a self-confessed feminist and can lift some decent weights (for a girl :pac:) but I really like watching my boyfriend lift something heavy. Some subconscious connection that if he can do that, he can go and hunt down some deer for dinner.

The problem is when this sort of "difference" is used for stupid things. For example, they did a study a while back on which colours boys and girls preferred: red or blue. They wanted to prove the hypothesis that girls like red because they used to go out foraging for berries - don't ask me how these scientists get funding..

Only problem is they asked people who were in their early 20s who had already experienced Princess Magic Touch, the Bratz, Barbie, Ken, Power Rangers, Thundercats, the might that is Disney..So it was no surprise that girls tended towards red and boys towards blue. But all it did was prove that in our society, red and pink is a "girly" colour and blue is a colour for boys and that this does sink in on some level. But of course they came out waving white flags, bleating about how they had proven this basic difference in colour preference between men and women.

Dinter

taconnol wrote: »

TBH, no one can reach the age of 30 in this society without having some gender stereotypes ingrained on their subconscious. Some people learn about them and are more aware, but at the end of the day, I don't have a huge amount of control over my subconscious thoughts, only my conscious ones.

That's totally true! However what my long winded and rambling post was meant to be about was that allowing preconceptions to influence how you deal with other people, regardless of gender, is a failing in you! For example this woman I work with, that I really don't get on with, was in with me earlier today complaining about something I'd apparently done and in my head I was shouting "Oh you addled bitch, get the fuk out of here". If it was a man I'd probably change the epithet but the sentiment would be the same. I didn't attach any importance to her and her comments didn't irk me any more purely by virtue of her gender. As far as I'm concerned what happens in your subconcious doesn't need to impact on your day to day dealings unless you allow it to. As long as your concious thoughts are in check that is.

taconnol wrote: »

So, Dinter, you say that you grew up in a pretty gender neutral society but I'd say your dad was the main breadwinner, well chances are that he was/is. .

Yep he was but trust me even at an early age it was obvious to us all that my mum had her work cut out for her raising 7 children!!

taconnol wrote: »

The problem is when this sort of "difference" is used for stupid things. - don't ask me how these scientists get funding..

I don't see why these differences need to be researched and importance added to them. Anyone who bases a judgement on someone purely because of some inalienable trait and allows that to interfere with how they perceive or treat them would probably do it to anyone regardless as to whether that trait is gender based or not.

Popinjay

taconnol wrote: »

The bit about colour preference

Ironically enough, blue used to be the girly colour and red/pink the blokey colour.

Red (and by extension pink) was associated with blood and as a result manly things like war and fighting and the like. And I'm sure most readers of this would be familiar with the statues in the average church of Mary wearing her nice baby blue shawl.

Can't remember where I read all of this or I'd link. The switch in preference escapes me too. (Sorry )

Nevyn

Popinjay wrote: »

Ironically enough, blue used to be the girly colour and red/pink the blokey colour.

Red (and by extension pink) was associated with blood and as a result manly things like war and fighting and the like. And I'm sure most readers of this would be familiar with the statues in the average church of Mary wearing her nice baby blue shawl.

Can't remember where I read all of this or I'd link. The switch in preference escapes me too. (Sorry )

IT came up in this forum in the pink tech thread.
Basically you can blame the nazi's for it.

metrovelvet

Blue was used to wrap boys in it to ward off evil as blue was considered a heavenly colour [Also why you see Mary in it.] Have no idea how pink came to be for girls.

Nevyn

here.

metrovelvet

There must have been another reversal. Because having some sort of marian blue on boys to ward off evil goes back to the middle ages.

Macha

I heard that in biblical times blue was actually a very difficult dye to procure and therefore would not have been worn by Mary, as the wife of a carpenter.

Kinda like the fact that Jesus must have been brown if he were from the Middle East. Then again, religion isn't known for letting little things like facts get in the way of a good story.

metrovelvet

taconnol wrote: »

I heard that in biblical times blue was actually a very difficult dye to procure and therefore would not have been worn by Mary, as the wife of a carpenter.

Kinda like the fact that Jesus must have been brown if he were from the Middle East. Then again, religion isn't known for letting little things like facts get in the way of a good story.

Well whatever is or isnt in the Bible makes no difference. Boys traditionally have had a higher infant mortality rate so there was more fear of things happeneing to them, and where there is fear there is superstition. The European art masters associated blue with the heavans and so draped Mary in blue in their depictions of her and that is how blue came to be a holy colour.

Macha

metrovelvet wrote: »

Boys traditionally have had a higher infant mortality rate so there was more fear of things happeneing to them, and where there is fear there is superstition.

Do you have a reference for that?

Usually, the expense of something, such as blue dye, elevates it to become something that people aspire to. I thought that was the reason. But then again purple was the colour associated with the Roman generals at that time.

Edit: Aha, not a surprise that it was extremely difficult to get purple dye in those days:
http://pffc-online.com/mag/paper_history_shellfish_royalty/

Your idea is interesting.

Dudess

,8,1 wrote: »

the fact that sexual liberalism/anarchism is a central part of feminism. From written theory to practice, sexual anarchism and feminism are indelibly linked.

As I thought... :rolleyes:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57595374&postcount=139
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57596799&postcount=142

Your assertion that those feminists who demanded sexual liberation are ultimately responsible for, and were essentially asking for, hardcore porn in which women are abused and degraded... well I can't articulate how much it offends me.
I presume you believe there are cases of rape where the woman asks for it...

metrovelvet

Not offhand I'll try to get one for you. I took a course many years ago in medieval art and literature around representation of beauty, sex and love, and this was one the things that came up, because often in European poetry at the time blue eyes were considered ideal, and this was why, they are heavenly. It wards off evil. I will see if I can get an online reference.

Macha

Well...a friend of mine told me (yeah one of those stories) that there were too many women in Scandinavian countries and so some women developed blue eyes to stand out and be more attractive to men...?? I dunno. Your explanation is more plausible...slightly.

Edit: this is confusing coz I'm having 2 discussions with you in 2 forums! If farohar joins in now something in my brain will explode :pac:

Nevyn

So young people have gone from having the 'Virgin' as thier female rolemodel to over sexualised, over glamourised role models like bratz doll, barbie, paris hilton and various wags.

metrovelvet

You mean that evolution made them have blue eyes... to attract men... I wonder how that happened...

Well, basically what I learned from this course where we looked at a lot of texts and art from midevil up to renaissance Europe was that the artists and poets kind of decided what was beutiful and then the population tried to follow suit, not unlike what happens to day.

... and yes 2 conversations on 2 threads is getting a little confusing... see you on feedback:P

Macha

Thaedydal wrote: »

So young people have gone from having the 'Virgin' as thier female rolemodel to over sexualised, over glamourised role models like bratz doll, barbie, paris hilton and various wags.

Yes it's really either one or the other, isn't it? You're either a virgin or a slut.

Latchy

Originally Posted by Thaedydal
So young people have gone from having the 'Virgin' as thier female rolemodel to over sexualised, over glamourised role models like bratz doll, barbie, paris hilton and various wags.

from Virgin to wags In about 50 years ? yes .... maybe .

Talliesin

Thaedydal wrote: »

Andrea Dworkin was anti porn, anti rape, anti sexual harrashment and sexual discrimination
that doesn't mean she was anti women and men getting it on, ok personally it wasn't her thing but that doesn't mean she was anti sex or anti sexuality.

Indeed. The in writing about her political and personal heroes she cites Federick Douglas (see the introduction to the second edition of Pornography: Men Possessing Women) and her father (see her entry in The Contemporary Authors Autobiography Series) respectively. She was a Lesbian who shared her life for many years with a man. She was strongly opposed to any idea of female superiority over men (see "Biological Superiority: The World's Most Dangerous and Deadly Idea" in Letters from a War Zone: Writings 1976-1989).

A lot of the stories about Andrea as a man-hater (and the cute, but completely untrue in multiple ways, story of her being banned by her own censorship) can be traced to articles in Penthouse and Hustler. Bias?

Andrea Dworkin wrote:

Q: A lot of men in this town think you're a killer.
A: I'm too shy to kill. I think they should be more afraid of each other, less afraid of me.

Quality

Was watching this porno one night, Anyhow the guy in it was really getting turned on while flushing the girls head down the toilet in between getting oral sex off her...



There is some weird stuff out there,, Personally for me I find that a very degrading thing to do...

I mean is there really a market for this sort of stuff???

Reku

taconnol wrote: »

If farohar joins in now something in my brain will explode :pac:

Damn, I take a nap and miss an amazing opertunity, I mean how many people can actually say they remotely made a person's brain explode.:(

taconnol wrote: »

Yes it's really either one or the other, isn't it? You're either a virgin or a slut.

The 2 Mary's in Jesus' life, his mum, the virgin, and his lover, the whore (or at least that's how the catholic church depicts her:rolleyes:).

Dinter

Quality wrote: »

Was watching this porno one night, Anyhow the guy in it was really getting turned on while flushing the girls head down the toilet in between getting oral sex off her...

I mean is there really a market for this sort of stuff???

Janitors.