CTYI gets screwed over by the Budget

Awayindahils

Piste: I'm surprised that you see the benefit of CTYI as a purely academic one. Many of the students who attend ctyi desperately need the social interaction that it provides. Many of the students who attend suffer in school as a result of being too bright and 'not fitting in'. This can cause them to hide their intelligence and to under perform so as to not stand out too much from their peers. Being accepted is often far more desirable than being brilliant.

Schools go to huge lenghts to help those who have learning difficulties, and do not do anything for the gifted. In my case it had gotten to the stage that my own school were worried that I had a learning difficulty and that is why I went for a dyslexia assessment. When the report was sent to my school absolutely nothing happened. I don't think I'd have made it through school or have had an idea of my own abilities if I hadn't gone to CTYI. I certainly would not have been ok with the fact that I was different and bright.

I was bullied out of montersory because I was different. I was embarrassed to use long words in school because I got slagged. I believe I used the words 'dumbed down' when I was interviewed by Shelia. I would not have been bothered to achieve if I hadn't gone to CTYI. I wouldn't have realised that there was a light at the end of the horrible tunnel that was primary and secondary education. I hated the format of learning in school.

I think if the government is trying to push for a knowledge economy they are very naive in removing funding from the CTYI program. For it only punishes the best the country has to offer. Being 'gifted' can be as much of a burden in our education system as suffering from a learning difficulty. The system is too rigid to deal properly with either without outside supports.

Piste

I know that some people who go to CTYI may be somewhat socially handicapped, but I've found that those people really are in the minority and the majority of people there was make friends and get on well in any circumstances. Why should money be spent on a program where only a small amount of people have a difficulty, be it socially or whatever? I think the money is much better spent knowing for sure it' going towards people who really need it.

miss no stars

Piste wrote: »

I know that some people who go to CTYI may be somewhat socially handicapped, but I've found that those people really are in the minority and the majority of people there was make friends and get on well in any circumstances. Why should money be spent on a program where only a small amount of people have a difficulty, be it socially or whatever? I think the money is much better spent knowing for sure it' going towards people who really need it.

Awayindahills is right, whether you like to admit it or not.

I'm now in my third year of college and it's only now that I'm out of what is a completely horrendous primary and secondary education system that I've enjoyed the benefits of a class based at my own pace. I'm in an intensive course that requires formal thought - something that not one single leaving cert honours syllabus requires. This is what CTYI gave academically gifted students - a chance to learn at their own pace and to interact with people like them.

My first words to my mother after my first day at CTYI were "I can talk to these people". Never before had I really fitted in. Sure, I had friends and did fine in school - up until the point where I dumbed myself down to fit in.
By the time I finished secondary school I was frustrated with the whole system to the point where I very nearly didn't sit the leaving cert - I know of at least one of my CTYI friends who got fed up and left school. In my honours maths class, time was dedicated purely to those who should not have been there (no natural numerical ability) and getting them up to scratch to the point where we had covered so little of the syllabus, and what little had been covered was done at such a painfully slow pace, that I came very very close to failing the Honours Maths course.

Whether you like it or not, people at both ends of the spectrum need more attention in education than those in the middle. I'm all for giving those at the lower end a helping hand, but equally, those at the top need help too. The top is a lonely, lonely place. CTYI was the only thing there for those at the top.

markytowny94

if the governmnet take away money from the intelligent and give it to the .......... "academically challenged?"............will they take advantage of those new facilities? Majority?

Will they be delighted to hear that education has changed for teh better or worse? Is there any "academically challenged" person on this forum?

Give money and grants to the people that want money and grants!That way, everyones happy!

I agree with awayindahils that CTYI Improves socail capabilities and confidence mainly because of the respect and atmosphere of the 3 weeks. But officially, CTYI is a summer education program. We cant say to the government that we have become more confident and social people through CTYI, because they are paying for education, not sentimental memories! If we want grants back we have to say from an educational point of view. not everyone gets more social and thats not the idea of CTYI anyway. We didnt start CTYI for confidence. The government look at CTYI as an education programme cos it is an education programme. They cannot consider the sentimental value and confidence students would get out of it because they consider that when they are considering confidence ..... summer camps.... if ya get what im saying. In fact, barely anyone outside of ctyi associates it with confidence. Just "summer school"

PurpleFistMixer

markytowny94 wrote: »

if the governmnet take away money from the intelligent and give it to the .......... "academically challenged?"............will they take advantage of those new facilities? Majority?

Will they be delighted to hear that education has changed for teh better or worse? Is there any "academically challenged" person on this forum?

Give money and grants to the people that want money and grants!That way, everyones happy!

Are you... actually trying to say that academically challenged people don't want/deserve help? Is that what you're saying?

Hm... I would say that this is the silliest thing I've heard all day, but someone suggested that all Muslims are terrorists earlier on another board, so unfortunately you don't win the prize. You win second prize though. Well done.

As I said earlier, I think everyone should have an education befitting their needs, and I certainly think there needs to be more put into encouraging the academically gifted. However, as opposed to a summer school in Dublin, (not that CTYI wasn't fantastic the years I went etc.) local and school-based resources should be getting more funding, so instead of having 3 weeks of mental stimulation and the rest of the year of boredom in class, you can have facilities and challenges during the term that are suited to your level and ability.

markytowny94

so your'e saying that you dont know any academically cahllenged person that hates school!?!?!?!do they really care about what results they get? of course they deserve an education. everyone does. but do some people care? only academic people care about academics, and only sporty people care about football. STOP GIVING FOOTBALL JERSEYS TO NON-FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS!!!!!!!!

PurpleFistMixer

Have you ever wondered why it is they hate school so much? Why they don't seem to care about their results? Do you think it may possibly be related to the fact that they're completely lost and feel useless and there's nothing there to help them?

You can't just give up on someone because they're a weak student. "Ah sure, they didn't do well in that maths test. Must be a dumdum. Stick 'em in the back. Ignore them until they fail their exams or start messing because they're being ignored, then kick them out."

Also, as far as funding goes, I'd be more concerned about cases such as kids with serious difficulties - autism, etc., than someone who just doesn't like school.

markytowny94

i agree 100% with the last paragraph but about the rest of the post. I dont think CTYI or any amount of cash/grants would change a lethargic attitiuded! Yes, I did say "lethargic"!

PurpleFistMixer

Very well, and we shall agree to differ. I believe that if properly catered for, many people could find something in school/education that interests them, and you apparently do not. (I may also point out here that there's more to facilitating different needs than just giving money to people...)

miss no stars

I think most here would agree that the people in the top 20% have different needs to the people in bottom 20% who in turn have different needs to the middle 60%.

At the moment the needs of all those but the top performers are being catered for. Why do we have no advanced placement system? Why is streaming such a taboo?

Seriously, there is no benefit to lumping everyone in together. You end up with a lot of frustrated people because they either can't make the grade or they are bored with the slow pace. A lot of people say that the idea behind not streaming is that the strong students will bring the weak students along. I find this offensive as no student is a teacher, no student is a tool and as such, no student should be used as an instrument to motivate and help weak students.

Why can there not be a programme that completes the junior cert in 2 years, has a transition year, the leaving cert in 1 year, has another transition year (based on say, library and research skills, university selection, introduction to college level material, introduction to the type of group projects expected of people in 3rd level) and then the students go off to university a year earlier (or the same year as those who go through a regular paced system without doing transition year). If there are special schools and systems for those at the bottom of the spectrum, by all rights there should be special schools and systems for those at the top.

Once upon a time, academia and a love of learning was nurtured. Now it's the fat ugly cousin of moulding everyone into one mediocre band of people. CTYI nurtures learning and academia. People may not like it, but those most able people that are being robbed of an adequate education may just be those newly qualified doctors, engineers, lawyers and business people that ponder over how this country has done nothing for them other than try to hinder them as they exit the country and take their skills somewhere they will be appreciated.

byhookorbycrook

petition on the other thread

byhookorbycrook

To: Gráinne Faller <grainnefaller@gmail.com>


Hi Grainne

I've bcced a bunch of people on this mail so as not to give out their email addresses if they don't want to do so although i would imagine that most people on the list would be interested in talking to you.

Grainne Faller is doing an article on CTYI and the recent budget cuts for the Irish Times and she is anxious to talk to parents and students who may be able to tell them of their experiences at CTYI. If you are interested, can you mail Grainne with your details including a mobile number and then she will contact you if necessary. Please pass this on to anyone else who may be interested. Grainne will only be in contact with a few of you for the purposes of the article but we would like to give an impression of the diverse group that are served by CTYI. There is something of a tight deadline for this so as soon as you can would be a plus as well.

paperclip2

In October 2007 Mary Hanafin predidted that spending on Special Needs education would total approximately 870 million euro in 2008 from an overall budget of almost 9 billion. This money is aimed at providing learning support services specifically for children with learning difficulties.
(Press release available here:
http://www.education.ie/robots/view.jsp?pcategory=10861&language=EN&ecategory=41296&link=link001&doc=37593 )

In light of this ninety seven thousand is not a great deal to ask in order to provide specific services for children with a different form of learning need.

Piste

paperclip2 wrote: »

In October 2007 Mary Hanafin predidted that spending on Special Needs education would total approximately 870 million euro in 2008 from an overall budget of almost 9 billion. This money is aimed at providing learning support services specifically for children with learning difficulties.
(Press release available here:
http://www.education.ie/robots/view.jsp?pcategory=10861&language=EN&ecategory=41296&link=link001&doc=37593 )

In light of this ninety seven thousand is not a great deal to ask in order to provide specific services for children with a different form of learning need.

Being smart is not a learning difficulty.

claire h

Piste wrote: »

Being smart is not a learning difficulty.

Well, the numerous educational psychologists and gifted-education advocates who've spent years researching and dealing with gifted kids who have encountered difficulties in school systems not designed for them might disagree with you on that point. 'Smart' is difficult to define - is it someone who has a great deal of intellectual potential, or someone who has a great deal of intellectual achievements? If you're defining it as someone who is achieving their potential, then of course, it's difficult to see how any kind of 'special' treatment might be beneficial. If on the other hand you're looking at potential, at aptitude, which is what so many entrance tests for places like CTYI and similar institutions around the world test for, then it becomes more difficult.

Look, I appreciate that you're probably uncomfortable with the idea of something like CTYI being lumped in with facilities provided for students with learning difficulties, despite the overlap. It is certainly problematic; I don't know enough about special education at the lower end of the ability spectrum to really comment but I do think that while there are probably certain parallels, the main reason for linking the two is that they're both for those outside the standard range of intelligence or ability or however you want to define it (or indeed how a particular institution might define it). When I was a student there I probably would have been uncomfortable with the connection, and also felt it inappropriate; as someone who's taught there and spoken to parents afterwards, it can be surprising what difficulties students who've been utterly brilliant for a term or a session turn out to be having in their full-time school environment. And I'm not talking about one or two students; the brilliant well-adjusted achiever that most people imagine when they think of 'smart' students certainly turns up at CTYI, but there are a hell of a lot more who don't fit that description. I know that for the summer courses at any rate, sometimes people do pick up on this, depending on how much they see of their CTYI friends after the course ends, but sometimes it's not always evident.

At any rate, here's a link to that newspaper article for the Times that turned up this week, for anyone interested - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2008/1111/1225925640957.html

paperclip2

Piste wrote: »

Being smart is not a learning difficulty.

Yes, it actually can be. Children with abilities beyond the average are not catered to in the general classroom. Some effects of this can include boredom, frustration, acting out, aggression and exclusion by peers.
These are factors that you can also see in children with more typically accepted learning difficulties and are quite significant in preventing children from achieving their potential.
More typical coping mechanisms in 'gifted' children include covering up their abilities and aptitudes in order to fit in with the mainstream education population. This can be a serious source of stress in certain children who can feel under pressure to choose between their peer group and being honest about the person they are. They may be unable to take the risk that they may not fit in with their peer group.

Why is this important? I'm heading into theory here, apologies

Adolescent psycho-social development is chiefly to do with 'fitting in and finding out'. In other words forming connections to a peer group outside the family where one can explore and develop an independent identity. Identity being defined as a stable and consistent sense of who one is and what one stands for, being able to successfully integrate beliefs, wishes, views and opinions into a cohesive worldview as well as having an understanding of ones place within it.
Arising from this is an ability to make effective, realistic choices, set goals and follow through on them. A weak sense of self does have an impact on a persons ability to make successful career and educational choices. Such individuals can have difficulty selecting a work role that suits them, they may find it hard to settle at a course or courses and can then 'bounce around' from job to job in later life. This has significant economic and social implications.

I have worked in education for for long enough to give me an opinion . At primary level and in adult education I have seen the effects of the education system and its failings. Children with traditionally accepted learning difficulties are rightly entitled to help and support to achieve their potential, but so too are children with above average abilities. At present there is an imbalance in addressing their needs.

If you want to look at identity formation and the importance of it in greater detail I recommend the work of Erik Erikson and James Marcia.

byhookorbycrook

under the now "deferred" EPSEN act, exceptionally able children were seen as having addtional needs. At present there is NO provison for EA children in schools. The one ray of hope was to suggest CTYI to these children, now funding is withdrawn ,children from poorer backgrounds will lose out.

paperclip2

I heard that the fees for the 2009 summer sessions would 'only' be going up by a couple of hundred. Did anyone else hear that?

Stargal

paperclip2 wrote: »

I heard that the fees for the 2009 summer sessions would 'only' be going up by a couple of hundred. Did anyone else hear that?

That's interesting. Where did you hear it from? Guess it makes financial sense; if there's roughly 450 students across the two sessions, an increase of €200 each yields an additional €90,000. Slap on an extra tenner on the 6-7 and 8-13 classes and hey presto, the gap in funding is gone.

Guess there isn't really much alternative with something like that. I got the impression though from one of the Irish Times articles that there were going to be cuts in addition to a possible increase in fees.

paperclip2

Stargal wrote: »

That's interesting. Where did you hear it from? Guess it makes financial sense; if there's roughly 450 students across the two sessions, an increase of €200 each yields an additional €90,000. Slap on an extra tenner on the 6-7 and 8-13 classes and hey presto, the gap in funding is gone.

Guess there isn't really much alternative with something like that. I got the impression though from one of the Irish Times articles that there were going to be cuts in addition to a possible increase in fees.

I heard it through the grapevine that Colm thingy said it. Friend of my sis is a TA on the Saturday classes. Its's not what you might call official.

BlueSpud

ntlbell wrote: »

It could be better spent in a center for poverty stricken youth's

There are thousands of things between the two. When have toy last heard a civil servant cry out for bench marking?

Knock 15% off all cc hight earners and you will get all the money for all the poverty stricken youths you could cope with.

TalkISCheap

I know I'm getting into the game a bit late, but better that than never I suppose!

markytowny94 wrote: »

I agree with awayindahils that CTYI Improves socail capabilities and confidence mainly because of the respect and atmosphere of the 3 weeks. But officially, CTYI is a summer education program. We cant say to the government that we have become more confident and social people through CTYI, because they are paying for education, not sentimental memories! If we want grants back we have to say from an educational point of view. not everyone gets more social and thats not the idea of CTYI anyway. We didnt start CTYI for confidence. The government look at CTYI as an education programme cos it is an education programme. They cannot consider the sentimental value and confidence students would get out of it because they consider that when they are considering confidence ..... summer camps.... if ya get what im saying. In fact, barely anyone outside of ctyi associates it with confidence. Just "summer school"

The mistake here is simple - to assume that social education is not "real education", and that the only form of education in which the Government is interested is purely academic. That's pretty short-sighted.

Two points. One, if the primary purpose of CTYI is to educate students academically, then its structure is questionable - surely the Government would want to have a much closer focus on course content, and would be looking for testing at the end of every course to prove that people have an amazing wealth of new knowledge about marine biology or whatever?! Where's the economic benefit in having a cadre of 10-year-old experts in gothic architecture? The government is (sorry, was) looking at the bigger picture:-

Which is point two! There are huge benefits to society in having people more socially aware, more confident, more articulate, and with a greater sense of self-worth. In this shortish thread alone, someone's mentioned that they've stayed in school as a result of CTYI, and we've had someone working in the education sector highlight the serious possible of a weak self-image, later in life.

CTYI made an awful lot of us into more well-rounded, happier individuals, which is exactly the result the Government is looking for from the programmes for those on the other end of the ability scale...