Ireland and the hereditary principle

mountainyman

I wonder did any of you out there in the ether see the cover of the Phoenix magazine recently? It was a photo of Brian Lenihan, Brian Cowen and Mary Coughlan. All of them inherited their seats.
While Mary Coughlan's father was a man of straw her uncle is still regarded as an honest and honourable man.
We will leave the integrity of the other TD's parents to one side.

Do Fianna Failers beleive that there are some people who are the best people and better fitted to rule than the rest of us.

Why do they keep voting for the children of TDs?

McArmalite

mountainyman wrote: »

I wonder did any of you out there in the ether see the cover of the Phoenix magazine recently? It was a photo of Brian Lenihan, Brian Cowen and Mary Coughlan. All of them inherited their seats.
While Mary Coughlan's father was a man of straw her uncle is still regarded as an honest and honourable man.
We will leave the integrity of the other TD's parents to one side.

Do Fianna Failers beleive that there are some people who are the best people and better fitted to rule than the rest of us.

Why do they keep voting for the children of TDs?

I agree with you, it seems to be a hereditary thing. Though FF aren't the only ones. Don't the Cosgraves of FG have something similiar, and didn't Dessie O'Malley inhereit his seat from Daddy, and Dick Spring also from his Daddy ?

mountainyman

McArmalite wrote: »

I agree with you, it seems to be a hereditary thing. Though FF aren't the only ones. Don't the Cosgraves of FG have something similiar, and didn't Dessie O'Malley inhereit his seat from Daddy, and Dick Spring also from his Daddy ?

Dick Spring was Dan Spring's son so yes. Th principle reaches its nadir in Labour.
[1] It is hypocritical
[2] It is pretty common Mary Upton was someone's sister and there was a TD who lied about his age until the son was old enough to take over.

By the way not wishing ill on anyone but if the hereditary principle was to be carriied on check out Kathleen Lynch's daughters. Kathleen was always a fine looking woman but the kids are stunning.


Liam Cosgrave inherited his seat from the father . But tha dynasty is over because the 3rd generation was caught taking a bribe.

The Corinthian

I've always found the Dail Peerage to be a bit odd, especially given the Irish aversion to all things aristocratic, to the point that we have no honours system (the only country in Europe AFAIK). Irish politics is full of direct heirs and family members.

Another two on the horizon looking to enter the family business are Garrett Tuberty (brother of Ryan and a member of the Andrews political clan) and Shay Brennan (named after his father). Neither is inheriting a seat, but it's interesting to note that politics in Ireland appears to lend itself towards a nepotistic slant nonetheless.

Why do such people get elected? Name recognition gives voters a sense of stability. Ireland is not alone in this, it's just that it's pretty endemic compared to most of the developed World.

But ultimately its because voters are dumb. Really. Go to a count if you don't believe me and see how many ballot sheets are filled out with the preferences in alphabetical order.

dresden8

The Corinthian wrote: »

But ultimately its because voters are dumb. Really. Go to a count if you don't believe me and see how many ballot sheets are filled out with the preferences in alphabetical order.

Is that story about O'Cuiv true?

On ballot papers he's

Cuiv, Eamonn O.

I suppose it explains why Beverley Flynn is Cooper-Flynn.

The Corinthian

Or how, supposedly, Frank Ross became Proinsias De Rossa.

Doing a quick tot-up (so there may be some inaccuracy) of the current Dail, of the 166 members, 53 have surnames that begin with the first four letters of the alphabet - which is 32%. If this is a higher percentage of how surnames are distributed in the larger population, then you have your proof.

The_Minister

Toiresea (sp?) Ferris is running for MEP for SF.

And I think its because the children of TDs have a good launching platform.
When FG's Eugene Regan called around, he had his daughters with him. Most TDs would bring their children around on the canvass, so they get to meet lots of people.

The Corinthian

The_Minister wrote: »

And I think its because the children of TDs have a good launching platform.
When FG's Eugene Regan called around, he had his daughters with him. Most TDs would bring their children around on the canvass, so they get to meet lots of people.

Doesn't really explain why it's not as commonplace outside of Ireland though.

The_Minister

The Corinthian wrote: »

Doesn't really explain why it's not as commonplace outside of Ireland though.

Bill Clinton ---> Hillary Clinton--->Chelsea Clinton
George Bush Snr

---

>Jeb Bush---->George Bush Jnr

Mussolini's granddaughter.....

We have more than other countries, but we aren't that far ahead.

getz

sounds as if ireland is getting itself ready to join the commonwealth [hereditary titles]

mike65

Its a reflection of small town Ireland, your dad was cock of the walk for 30 years everyone is expecting you to stand, the local party wants you to stand, so you stand.

Mike

The Corinthian

The_Minister wrote: »

We have more than other countries, but we aren't that far ahead.

Actually I believe you'll find that an unnaturally high proportion of elected politicians, even in the cabinet, is either a direct heir or a member of a political family, so Ireland's pretty far ahead in reality.

dresden8

Quick search on internet (may not be entirely accurate) suggests 1 TD for every 25,500 people whereas in the UK its 1 MP for approximately 72,000.

Is our system much more "intimate" and lends itself to TD's pressing a greater proportion of the flesh on their rounds with daddy on their apprenticeship tours?

lostexpectation

its disgusting

The Corinthian

dresden8 wrote: »

Quick search on internet (may not be entirely accurate) suggests 1 TD for every 25,500 people whereas in the UK its 1 MP for approximately 72,000.

Could well be at least one of the reasons for this, but it certainly does not make it acceptable.

Hotblack Desiato

The Corinthian wrote: »

Another two on the horizon looking to enter the family business are Garrett Tuberty (brother of Ryan

Nobody can stand Ryan Tubridy, so why on earth would anyone vote for his brother?

mike65

Eh? Loads of loverly middle aged wimmins adore Ryan, thats why they'd vote for his brother. You are out of touch!

Mike

The Corinthian

ninja900 wrote: »

Nobody can stand Ryan Tubridy, so why on earth would anyone vote for his brother?

In fairness to them both they are actually chalk and cheese - completely different characters. Garrett is actually quite a competent indiviual in his own right, and I would not question his ability to hold public office, only observing that he does fall into into this nepotistic stereotype that is so common in Irish politics.

simu

How would you tackle this? A ban on the sons and daughters of politicains in standing for office?

This "hereditary principle" is deeply entrenched in Irish people, even intelligent ones. The only cure I see is if people started thinking more critically about politicians but don't expect to see that anytime soon.

We're not anti-aristocratic; we just resent the British aristocracy (whilst still being somewhat fascinated by them).

The Corinthian

simu wrote: »

This "hereditary principle" is deeply entrenched in Irish people, even intelligent ones. The only cure I see is if people started thinking more critically about politicians but don't expect to see that anytime soon.

See? Democracy doesn't work - when are people just going to accept that?

We're not anti-aristocratic; we just resent the British aristocracy (whilst still being somewhat fascinated by them).

The Irish are anti-aristocratic in that the British aristocracy was the only one that they (I'm wearing my non-Irish hat now) had. I'm not suggesting that aristocracy is a good system, but objecting to an honours system on the basis that it is related to aristocracy always struck me as taking this aversion to silly extremes... but this is going seriously OT.

Mr.Micro

simu wrote: »

How would you tackle this? A ban on the sons and daughters of politicains in standing for office?

This "hereditary principle" is deeply entrenched in Irish people, even intelligent ones. The only cure I see is if people started thinking more critically about politicians but don't expect to see that anytime soon.

We're not anti-aristocratic; we just resent the British aristocracy (whilst still being somewhat fascinated by them).

We do'nt stop there, hell we copy most of their legislation. Of course we wait for them to solve a problem then we copy it and claim it as our own work. The most recent example I can think of is the 2 years that foreign workers have to pay taxe prsi etc before they can claim dole. Perhaps we should copy their budget as they appear unable to do one here now that there is no money rolling in?

Darragh29

mike65 wrote: »

Its a reflection of small town Ireland, your dad was cock of the walk for 30 years everyone is expecting you to stand, the local party wants you to stand, so you stand.

Mike

Agreed, I think that whatever gene deals with brass necks is more to do with it than anything else, certainly in the case of the Flynn's of Mayo anyway...

Hotblack Desiato

mike65 wrote: »

Eh? Loads of loverly middle aged wimmins adore Ryan, thats why they'd vote for his brother. You are out of touch!

Yes, yes I am out of touch with middle-aged wimmins. Perhaps there is a support group I can join.

The Corinthian wrote:

In fairness to them both they are actually chalk and cheese - completely different characters. Garrett is actually quite a competent indiviual in his own right, and I would not question his ability to hold public office

No doubt, but your more cynical types like my good self would just conclude 'vote buying ploy, and his brother is such a wnaker, apples don't fall far from the tree' and vote Anyone But Turgidy.

only observing that he does fall into into this nepotistic stereotype that is so common in Irish politics.

Is there a word for nepotism, that involves siblings? We already have Upton, and Tubridy would be another one... why am I expecting him to be voted in anyway, sigh.

nesf

dresden8 wrote: »

Quick search on internet (may not be entirely accurate) suggests 1 TD for every 25,500 people whereas in the UK its 1 MP for approximately 72,000.

Well it's a crucial point that many people forget when comparing our political system to ones in other country. We've an extremely high politician to citizen ratio (mainly because of the idea that you need over a hundred people in a parliament for even a halfway competent cabinet to be formed simply because the public don't tend to vote for the most competent candidates a lot of the time, mainly down to the public not having a bull's notion of what a TD actually has to do, never mind a Minister).

dresden8 wrote: »

Is our system much more "intimate" and lends itself to TD's pressing a greater proportion of the flesh on their rounds with daddy on their apprenticeship tours?

Essentially it's more that a TD can maintain a level of personal contact with their electorate that is practically impossible for politicians in other countries because they need to reach so few. This makes inheriting the family business far more likely in our political system for a variety of reasons.

The Corinthian wrote:

Could well be at least one of the reasons for this, but it certainly does not make it acceptable.

Honestly, when talking about politics it's not whether things are acceptable but whether they are probable. It's a bit like how the party who are in power most often will tend to be more corrupt than other parties. It doesn't make corruption in any way acceptable but it's a tendency that exists whether we like it or not. Our small scale political system is going to give us very different politicians with very different skillsets than the bigger system of the US Senate for instance where the Senator to voter ratio is over an order of magnitude bigger than what we have here with our TDs.

Voipjunkie

The Corinthian wrote: »

Could well be at least one of the reasons for this, but it certainly does not make it acceptable.

These people are elected they have the same mandate as any other elected TD whether their Father, Mother, Brother or anyone else had a seat before them.

There is no inheritance they put themselves forward and the people can choose or reject them nothing unacceptable about it people are not forced into electing them they do it of there own free will.

The Corinthian

Voipjunkie wrote: »

These people are elected they have the same mandate as any other elected TD whether their Father, Mother, Brother or anyone else had a seat before them.

But that really isn't true - remember in a representative democracy, before they are elected, they are selected.

This means they are put forward by their respective political parties where family ties will give them an unfair advantage to those party members who are unconnected by blood.

By the time Joe Public gets to choose, they've already received their 'inheritance' - the party ticket.

Voipjunkie

The Corinthian wrote: »

But that really isn't true - remember in a representative democracy, before they are elected, they are selected.

This means they are put forward by their respective political parties where family ties will give them an unfair advantage to those party members who are unconnected by blood.

By the time Joe Public gets to choose, they've already received their 'inheritance' - the party ticket.

I don't see what your complaint is here they are selected by their parties ( or they could choose to run as an independent as many do if unsuccessful at convention)

At the end of the day they only get elected because the Irish people vote for them the Irish people are not under any pressure or undue influence they can choose them or not if they elect them there is nothing unacceptable about it.

Having a recognisable name is an advantage but thats all it is but that is not confined to Ireland. It is true the world over as long as the election is free and fair anyone can stand for election and the people make there choice whether

What is your suggestion that direct relatives of former politicians be debarred from politics hardly very democratic is it.

The Corinthian

Voipjunkie wrote: »

I don't see what your complaint is here they are selected by their parties ( or they could choose to run as an independent as many do if unsuccessful at convention)

Of course they could run as independents - and most likely lose. Only a fool would deny that the nature of representative democracy is heavily biased in favour of (mainstream) political parties and the 'party machine' that they can employ at election time.

At the end of the day they only get elected because the Irish people vote for them the Irish people are not under any pressure or undue influence they can choose them or not if they elect them there is nothing unacceptable about it.

If you accept that being on a mainstream party ticket gives one a significant advantage in getting elected over an independent or someone in a fringe party (with limited resources for electioneering) and you accept that being related to a politician gives one a significant advantage in getting that ticket, then the conclusion is pretty inevitable.

What is your suggestion that direct relatives of former politicians be debarred from politics hardly very democratic is it.

I never suggested any such thing. I made an observation that direct relatives of (former) politicians appear to have an unfair advantage in entering political office. I did not suggest any means of remedying it, nor did I suggest that, as individuals, they may not deserve to be elected.

However, the fact remains that Ireland does appear to have a significant number of Oireachtais peerages, even when compared to other western democracy, and neither is this terribly acceptable.

Voipjunkie

The Corinthian wrote: »

Of course they could run as independents - and most likely lose. Only a fool would deny that the nature of representative democracy is heavily biased in favour of (mainstream) political parties and the 'party machine' that they can employ at election time.

If you accept that being on a mainstream party ticket gives one a significant advantage in getting elected over an independent or someone in a fringe party (with limited resources for electioneering) and you accept that being related to a politician gives one a significant advantage in getting that ticket, then the conclusion is pretty inevitable.

I never suggested any such thing. I made an observation that direct relatives of (former) politicians appear to have an unfair advantage in entering political office. I did not suggest any means of remedying it, nor did I suggest that, as individuals, they may not deserve to be elected.

However, the fact remains that Ireland does appear to have a significant number of Oireachtais peerages, even when compared to other western democracy, and neither is this terribly acceptable.

Baloney you are moving from the idea of advantage to peerage while ignoring the fact that these people are elected and that the reason that these people have an advantage is because of the way people are.

Political parties choose relatives because people vote for them it is not that political parties are forcing relatives of former politicians upon the electorate but rather that Irish people and people in general around the world vote by their own free will for people related to people they voted for before.
If people stopped doing that then political parties would stop selecting them.

There is nothing unusual in sons and daughters following their Mothers and Fathers in their chosen profession whether that is as a Baker or a Binman or in the Army or the Police or as a Politician.

And Ireland is in no way unusual in that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_political_families


Its not like this is North Korea or Cuba where a family member is selected by the predecessor and thats the way it is at the end of the day it is the free will of the Irish people to vote or not to vote for these people.

I just dont see how you view the will of the Irish people as being unacceptable

lostexpectation

they depend on name recognition, its cheap politics

The Corinthian

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Baloney you are moving from the idea of advantage to peerage while ignoring the fact that these people are elected and that the reason that these people have an advantage is because of the way people are.

No, the advantage is because of the fact that they can get on a party ticket easier and party tickets have, in turn, a much better chance of getting elected. Without using finger puppets, I don't really know how much clearer I can be with you on this.

When that unfair advantage becomes significant (and having an advantage by virtue of birth is considered unfair by most), then you enter the dangerous waters of having de facto peerages - where political offices are passed down from generation to generation.

And Ireland is in no way unusual in that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_political_families

No, Ireland is not alone in this, however we do have a pretty high number of such 'inherited' seats by any Western standards.

Its not like this is North Korea or Cuba where a family member is selected by the predecessor and thats the way it is at the end of the day it is the free will of the Irish people to vote or not to vote for these people.

Well, actually, Iran is a better example; there people can elect whoever they want - from a short list that's been chosen behind closed doors. The party political system is not dissimilar except one can run outside of the mainstream parties - but without their resources almost certainly lose.

I just dont see how you view the will of the Irish people as being unacceptable

Nice try at turning the issue around, but no cigar. If you present an electorate with a limited selection, how are they truly expressing their will? Or do you believe that their will is best 'guided' by those who know best?

I take it you are a member of one of the major political parties?