Ireland and the hereditary principle

TheEnforcer

Wait a minute, did BIFFO not give a major interview after he got the job. He said he "fell" into politics. And then you look into his history and his grandad BIFFO was a founding member of the party, and his oul boy was also in it.

Bit like the US, its an old boy network.

Voipjunkie

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, the advantage is because of the fact that they can get on a party ticket easier and party tickets have, in turn, a much better chance of getting elected. Without using finger puppets, I don't really know how much clearer I can be with you on this.

When that unfair advantage becomes significant (and having an advantage by virtue of birth is considered unfair by most), then you enter the dangerous waters of having de facto peerages - where political offices are passed down from generation to generation.

No, Ireland is not alone in this, however we do have a pretty high number of such 'inherited' seats by any Western standards.

Well, actually, Iran is a better example; there people can elect whoever they want - from a short list that's been chosen behind closed doors. The party political system is not dissimilar except one can run outside of the mainstream parties - but without their resources almost certainly lose.

Nice try at turning the issue around, but no cigar. If you present an electorate with a limited selection, how are they truly expressing their will? Or do you believe that their will is best 'guided' by those who know best?

I take it you are a member of one of the major political parties?

Please that has to be the most laughable post I have read in a while Ireland is like Iran

Do you really believe that honestly hand on heart believe that. Well let me point out that unlike Iran anyone can stand for election and do not need the approval of unelected Mullahs.
As such Irish people have the choice of Large party canidates and small party canidates and independents.

Apart from the last election when relatively few independent TDs were elected there are a relatively large number of non party or small party TDs elected not just to the Dail but to the European Parliament and the various local councils.

Obviously large organised parties have an advantage but that is why they are large organised parties.

It seems to me that you have a problem with democracy and that you dont trust the people to make up their own mind.
I can think of numerous examples in the last 20 years where parties have attempted to parachute canidates in to take advantage of name recognition and have lost spectacularly and having huge resources guarantees nothing.
Think of the sandwich king that FG dropped into Dublin North East high profile apparently unlimited resources but he lost to his running mate a previously unheard of local councillor with very limited resources.

At the end of the day the people make up their own mind whilst we may despair at it sometimes we have to respect it

And no I am not a member of any political party and I have never voted for anyone because of their name.

The Corinthian

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Please that has to be the most laughable post I have read in a while Ireland is like Iran

Do you really believe that honestly hand on heart believe that. Well let me point out that unlike Iran anyone can stand for election and do not need the approval of unelected Mullahs.
As such Irish people have the choice of Large party canidates and small party canidates and independents.

Giving the electorate a de facto shortlist decided upon outside of the democratic process is essentially what happens in Ireland - by gombeen men rather than mullahs though. The only difference between Ireland and Iran is that one can still run as an independent, but given your chances of getting elected as one are a fraction of those for a mainstream candidate.

Simply saying that anyone can put their name on the ballot sheet, does not make an election democratic. Russia has been severely criticized for a similar situation whereby the resources available to government candidates have given then an almost unassailable advantage.

Ireland is nowhere near as bad as either Russia or Iran, but nonetheless neither is it perfect. I find it disturbing that any examination of the democratic process should be treated in such a defensive manner by anyone.

Apart from the last election when relatively few independent TDs were elected there are a relatively large number of non party or small party TDs elected not just to the Dail but to the European Parliament and the various local councils.

I like the use of "relatively large number" here, betraying that in absolute terms this number is not in any way large.

Obviously large organised parties have an advantage but that is why they are large organised parties.

And given that they are free to act in an anti-democratic fashion, is this a good thing?

It seems to me that you have a problem with democracy and that you dont trust the people to make up their own mind.

Not at all. I am questioning the efficiency of the checks and balances that presently exist in representative democracies. When undemocratic institutions (such as the occult machinations of political parties) gain too strong an influence and can distort or manipulate the democratic process, then of course one should question this - or should we simply ask no questions for fear of being accused of being anti-democratic?

I can think of numerous examples in the last 20 years where parties have attempted to parachute canidates in to take advantage of name recognition and have lost spectacularly and having huge resources guarantees nothing.

I never suggested anything is guaranteed. An unfair advantage is not a guarantee.

And no I am not a member of any political party and I have never voted for anyone because of their name.

Sure.

Voipjunkie

The Corinthian wrote: »

Giving the electorate a de facto shortlist decided upon outside of the democratic process is essentially what happens in Ireland - by gombeen men rather than mullahs though. The only difference between Ireland and Iran is that one can still run as an independent, but given your chances of getting elected as one are a fraction of those for a mainstream candidate.

Stop please all elections involve a shortlist bar we all put our names forward for election.
And the utter nonsense that the only difference between Ireland and Iran is the ability to run as an independent try setting up and running a non islamist political party in Iran not to mention exercising your right to free speech or demonstrate

The Corinthian wrote: »

Simply saying that anyone can put their name on the ballot sheet, does not make an election democratic. Russia has been severely criticized for a similar situation whereby the resources available to government candidates have given then an almost unassailable advantage.

Actually the criticism is the use of massive state resources and the murder and suppression of any kind of descent that coupled with a media that is under complete government control.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Ireland is nowhere near as bad as either Russia or Iran, but nonetheless neither is it perfect. I find it disturbing that any examination of the democratic process should be treated in such a defensive manner by anyone.

And where is perfect if you find that utopia give us a shout in the mean time I'll take Irish democracy over most of the alternatives including the "democracy" practised in the some of the leading free nations of the world.
My problem is not with your examination of the democratic process but the nonsense about hereditary peerages and inherited seats.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I like the use of "relatively large number" here, betraying that in absolute terms this number is not in any way large.

Compare it to our nearest neighbour I would say it is huge and gives lie to your claims that it is nearly impossible

The Corinthian wrote: »

And given that they are free to act in an anti-democratic fashion, is this a good thing?

what anti democratic fashion are you particularly referring to

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not at all. I am questioning the efficiency of the checks and balances that presently exist in representative democracies. When undemocratic institutions (such as the occult machinations of political parties) gain too strong an influence and can distort or manipulate the democratic process, then of course one should question this - or should we simply ask no questions for fear of being accused of being anti-democratic?

how are political parties undemocratic

Membership is open to all citizens and candidates are chosen by the membership
The leadership is then elected by the membership or by the elected representatives of the party or a combination

The Corinthian wrote: »

I never suggested anything is guaranteed. An unfair advantage is not a guarantee.

hereditary, inherited , peerage all suggest a guarantee of success which is obviously untrue
whilst name recognition and a party support may give a candidate a head start nobody ( except the Ceann Comhairle) is sure of anything among the names I have seen mentioned in this thread

O' Malley
Spring
Cosgrave

Where are they everyone of them was of course helped by having a recognised surname and everyone of them got the bums rush from the electorate eventually.

And what is your proposal a ban on political parties or perhaps a ban on surnames or maybe you would prefer that relatives of former politicians would be banned from standing for election

The Corinthian wrote: »

Sure.

I'm absolutely positive but you can choose to believe whatever suits you

lostexpectation

"whilst name recognition and a party support may give a candidate a head start nobody"

this is what we complaining about, cheap name recognition.

ninty9er

There's An surprisingly high number in FF, but I don't think it's a particularly bad thing. They've grown up around public service, so can't exactly say they didn't expect the long hours and on call nature of the job.

In FF currently you have a large proportion, but wasn't Henry Kenny a TD for Mayo West, and Richard's brother was Taoiseach, Kieran O'Donnell got elected on rural votes that would have associated him with the strong constituency work of his uncle Tom.

Likewise we have
Áine Brady, Michael Kitt, Tom Kitt, not to forget Áine's husband Gerry >>> children of Michael Kitt.

Mary and John Hanafin >>>> children of Des Hanafin

Mary Coughlan >>> Daughter of Cathal, niece of Clement.

I could go on and on....for all parties, but it doesn't mean they're elected on the name, as many cousins will have failed to get elected to County Councils etc...across parties. People will also be reluctant to vote for someone where they are not seeing results....and clearly that is not the case in general, or we'd have a Dáil of independents and a new government at the rise of every new moon.

lostexpectation

yeah we've had great results lately lol,education,economy, health, give me a break.

ninty9er

lostexpectation wrote: »

yeah we've had great results lately lol,education,economy, health, give me a break.

Did i hear the needle slipping on the gramaphone there?? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Voipjunkie

lostexpectation wrote: »

"whilst name recognition and a party support may give a candidate a head start nobody"

this is what we complaining about, cheap name recognition.

Ok but what are you suggesting

As long as people vote that way parties will pick candidates to take advantage of it.
It is not the political parties fault and there is NOTHING that can be done about it as someone with a recognised name has as much right to stand for election as anyone else.
Your complaint is about human nature a recognised name ( and possibly a sympathy element following the death of a relative) adds a couple of thousand votes to your candidate political parties want to win elections so they choose candidates that they think will give them the best chance of that.
But at the end of the day if those candidates or representatives don't put the work in they will either not succeed or they will not hold on to the seat.

Voipjunkie

lostexpectation wrote: »

yeah we've had great results lately lol,education,economy, health, give me a break.

So presumably you believe that the world recession has happened because both our Taoiseach and Finance Minister are sons of former TDs.

It seems so obvious now that you say it lets get rid of anyone in Leinster house who has a relation who was previously elected to anything and that will reduce class sizes and fix the health system.

ninty9er

Voipjunkie wrote: »

So presumably you believe that the world recession has happened because both our Taoiseach and Finance Minister are sons of former TDs.

It seems so obvious now that you say it lets get rid of anyone in Leinster house who has a relation who was previously elected to anything and that will reduce class sizes and fix the health system.

It'd certainly put a nice dent in the Dáil and Seanad.

The Corinthian

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Stop please all elections involve a shortlist bar we all put our names forward for election.
And the utter nonsense that the only difference between Ireland and Iran is the ability to run as an independent try setting up and running a non islamist political party in Iran not to mention exercising your right to free speech or demonstrate

Why are you deliberately misinterpreting what I posted?

Compare it to our nearest neighbour I would say it is huge and gives lie to your claims that it is nearly impossible

I think you'll find the level of nepotism in the UK is a fraction of what it is in the Republic.

what anti democratic fashion are you particularly referring to

Internal party politics are often anything but democratic - the political 'shaft' is alive and well in FF, FG, et al. Given you've never been involved in party politics, I wouldn't expect you to know this...

Membership is open to all citizens and candidates are chosen by the membership

Not exactly. Political parties will often operate using less than democratic processes internally, with candidates being short-listed without so much as a consultation, let alone a vote, with the greater membership and even when votes do take place the shenanigans that will take place are laughably Machiavellian.

hereditary, inherited , peerage all suggest a guarantee of success which is obviously untrue

I never suggested any guarantee and have repeatedly rejected that it is a guarantee. Again, you appear to be deliberately misrepresenting my posts.

And what is your proposal a ban on political parties or perhaps a ban on surnames or maybe you would prefer that relatives of former politicians would be banned from standing for election

I've not proposed any solution, let alone suggest a ban on political parties or surnames. Again, you appear to be deliberately misrepresenting my posts.

I'm absolutely positive but you can choose to believe whatever suits you

Well, your defence of the way that political parties interpret democracy internally would lead me to believe that either you have a vested interest or a great deal of naivety.

Voipjunkie

The Corinthian wrote: »

I've not proposed any solution, let alone suggest a ban on political parties or surnames. Again, you appear to be deliberately misrepresenting my posts.

Right so you have no ideas on how to change it content to moan about it.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Well, your defence of the way that political parties interpret democracy internally would lead me to believe that either you have a vested interest or a great deal of naivety.

I'm neither naive nor have I a vested interest in any political party but it is laughable that you compare Ireland to Iran and then accuse me of naivety.

Honestly I have read a lot of your posts on here and normally you seem like a fairly rational person don't agree with most of it but some of the stuff you have posted in this thread is off the wall.

Actually looking back it seems like you are almost bitter to the extent that you have lost your normal objectivity. Your not a defeated candidate at a selection convention by any chance are you.

ninty9er

The Corinthian wrote: »

Internal party politics are often anything but democratic - the political 'shaft' is alive and well in FF, FG, et al. Given you've never been involved in party politics, I wouldn't expect you to know this...

This is a sad, but true fact of party politics all over the planet....even in Russia:D:D

The Corinthian

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Right so you have no ideas on how to change it content to moan about it.

Sure, why not?

I'm neither naive nor have I a vested interest in any political party but it is laughable that you compare Ireland to Iran and then accuse me of naivety.

Making a comparison does not imply that they are the same, and I made this quite clear. However, even if Ireland and Iran are not in the same 'democratic' league, that does not mean that they cannot share some, even tenuous similarities - to deny that possibility would be the hight of arrogance.

Honestly I have read a lot of your posts on here and normally you seem like a fairly rational person don't agree with most of it but some of the stuff you have posted in this thread is off the wall.

It's not really all that off the wall. I'm not saying that such nepotistic practices are the doom of democracy, only that they're 'democratically inefficient', as it were. As with business practices that are continually examined and reformed to avoid corruption (which is by definition where unfair advantage can be exploited), it doesn't hurt for us to do the same for democracy, so that we may perhaps fine tune it.

Actually looking back it seems like you are almost bitter to the extent that you have lost your normal objectivity. Your not a defeated candidate at a selection convention by any chance are you.

Good grief, no. I never had the common touch necessary with politics, and have known this from an early age. I've always practised my politics through donations and contra deals instead.

Voipjunkie

The Corinthian wrote: »

. I've always practised my politics through donations and contra deals instead.

I would have been more a sandinista supporter myself

lostexpectation

boom and bust wasn't just worldwide policy it was an irish policy, the incestuous nature leads to lack of transformation from generation to generation, which is why we still have religious orders owning our schools and hospitals, it also ads to the clinetism,and old boy network,(old family netwrok), that leads to complaceny arrogance and corruption,vopijunky your are just defending low standards,you may be happy with lows standrads im amn't, the parties could choose by other then name recongition.

Voipjunkie

lostexpectation wrote: »

boom and bust wasn't just worldwide policy it was an irish policy, the incestuous nature leads to lack of transformation from generation to generation, which is why we still have religious orders owning our schools and hospitals, it also ads to the clinetism,and old boy network,(old family netwrok), that leads to complaceny arrogance and corruption,vopijunky your are just defending low standards,you may be happy with lows standrads im amn't, the parties could choose by other then name recongition.

Boom and Bust are features of capitalism live with it even Gordon Brown could not stop the cycle much as he kidded himself he had.

I am not defending low standard I'm saying that the system is that way because we the people have it that way.
Look at Dublin South FF are trying to convince young brennan to run for his late fathers seat why because FF know that the combination of the name Brennan and the sympathy factor will add a couple of thousand votes onto his tally. Is that FFs fault or is it the fault of the people.
FF are going to select the person that gives them the best chance of winning end of story.
That said young brennan will not win just by turning up and he will have to keep working or he will lose his seat no matter what his name is( of course presuming he wins or runs)

lostexpectation

yes it is ff fault!!!!

ninty9er

lostexpectation wrote: »

yes it is ff fault!!!!

Henry Kenny - Enda Kenny??

John Bruton - Richard Bruton??

Whose fault did you say it was???

Because it's certainly not the political establishment.

Voipjunkie

lostexpectation wrote: »

yes it is ff fault!!!!

Fascinating as that insight is could you expand on it perhaps give a reason why it is FFs fault.

ninty9er

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Fascinating as that insight is could you expand on it perhaps give a reason why it is FFs fault.

Everything is our fault right now....didn't you get the memo:rolleyes:

The weather....too cold, too wet, too dry, too windy.

Budget 2009 not being to everyone's liking (partially true)....not like it's aim is to run a country for a year or anything, it's all about pleasing people who are outraged (BTW did they tell you about the old days when times were hard, and you either got by or you didn't:rolleyes:)

Traffic

The bus being late

The train coming on time


It's ALL our fault!

simu

A possible approach - the spouse/child of an existing TD who dies is prevented from running for the office of TD until 5 years after their relative's death. By then, memories and sympathies will have faded somewhat and so, they lose some of their advantage.

I'm still not convinced that "hereditary" politicians are more of a threat to the running of the country than the non-hereditary variety, though!

Voipjunkie

simu wrote: »

A possible approach - the spouse/child of an existing TD who dies is prevented from running for the office of TD until 5 years after their relative's death. By then, memories and sympathies will have faded somewhat and so, they lose some of their advantage.

I'm still not convinced that "hereditary" politicians are more of a threat to the running of the country than the non-hereditary variety, though!

Would require a constitional amendment and even then you could lose a case in the Human Rights courts as you are depriving people from standing for public office on the basis of who their parent/spouse was and nothing they have done themselves.

EamonnKeane

The_Minister wrote: »

Bill Clinton ---> Hillary Clinton--->Chelsea Clinton
George Bush Snr

---

>Jeb Bush---->George Bush Jnr

Mussolini's granddaughter.....

We have more than other countries, but we aren't that far ahead.

Bush sr's dad Prescott Bush was a rich oilman who was part of the Business Plot, a failed coup d'etat against Roosevelt

mountainyman

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Boom and Bust are features of capitalism live with it even Gordon Brown could not stop the cycle much as he kidded himself he had.

I am not defending low standard I'm saying that the system is that way because we the people have it that way.
Look at Dublin South FF are trying to convince young brennan to run for his late fathers seat why because FF know that the combination of the name Brennan and the sympathy factor will add a couple of thousand votes onto his tally. Is that FFs fault or is it the fault of the people.
FF are going to select the person that gives them the best chance of winning end of story.
That said young brennan will not win just by turning up and he will have to keep working or he will lose his seat no matter what his name is( of course presuming he wins or runs)

The Brennan family need a TD for reasons to do with their family business. Do you really believe that no member of the family is working to ensure that Shay Brennan is the only FF on the ballot?
In fact while everyone in the Brennan family may be (and always have been) of the highest political standards and competence the family business is an object lesson in why 'seat inheritance' is a bad thing.
MM

The Corinthian

mountainyman wrote: »

The Brennan family need a TD for reasons to do with their fammily business. Do you really believe that no member of the family is working to ensure that Shay Brennan is the only FF on the ballot?

Supporters of another FF political family would-be candidate are... allegedly.

lostexpectation

now were back to everybody does it so its okay, who elses fault is it but the political parties?

ninty9er

lostexpectation wrote: »

now were back to everybody does it so its okay, who elses fault is it but the political parties?

They don't elect themselves you know;)

lostexpectation

they pick their candidates, that happens at party and cumman level, often you see how the 'second td' in a constituency gets over taken by the 'son of', naturally the same seat will get a large vote as it it did with the father, people just use to going out voting for ff in that seat, but often instead of the second td who's been working in the local party for years getting the position and resource of the 'No1 td' for that area,its the name that gets it,name ,a name, a collection of letters rather the work.