RE. AGM'S

Sikamick

Sorry Sparks I am open to correction on this, the NRAI are still members of the SSAI but are in dispute with some of the committee for a number of reasons.

Sikamick

Sparks

I may have heard incorrectly so Sika, I'd heard it was basicly all over bar the shouting because of the SSAI continuing to ignore specific complaints the NRAI had raised, as the NRAI said on their website:

01.10.08: The N.R.A.I is unhappy with the conduct and the running of the S.S.A.I by some of its officers. Only recently we have sent several important emails none of which were responded to. It is most unsatisfactory and outrageous that any N.G.B could be treated with such contempt. We have serious outstanding issues to be addressed following our last S.S.A.I meeting.

As of now we cannot co operate any longer with the officers of the S.S.A.I. Despite attempts to discuss our issues by email and meetings we are being ignored.

The N.R.A.I is considering withdrawal from the S.S.A.I. We feel we have no choice but to meet the Irish Sports Council to discuss the above and seek advice, after which the N.R.A.I committee will meet and consider its position.

Sikamick

The N.R.A.I is considering withdrawal from the S.S.A.I. We feel we have no choice but to meet the Irish Sports Council to discuss the above and seek advice, after which the N.R.A.I committee will meet and consider its position.

And after the debacle of the AGM the other night God only knows what they might do.

I feel that they have to stay involved to get the problems sorted.

Only my opinion.

Sikamick

Sparks

Replying to the edit:

Sikamick wrote: »

When an NGB puts four people forward to sit at SSAI meetings are they named individuals or can the NGB send any NGB member to the SSAI meetings.

They're named individuals, but the NGB can substitute any NGB member as their representative at any time (on a permanent or temporary basis - I acted as a temporary deputy on one occasion as our rep was unavailable, for example, but at the next meeting our rep took over again).

If so where you have an individual that's affiliated to a number of NGB's because he/she shoots different disciplines can they on the night of the meeting represent any of the NGB'S that they are belong to.

No, they can only represent the NGB that puts them forward. According to the rules, at least. In practise, those rules can't be enforced, so it's down to the people there on the night to stick to them. If they don't, there really isn't any recourse available to any party to rectify it cleanly. All the NGBs might agree that whatever that person did was ultra vires and re-hold the meeting, but if they don't all agree to do so, there's no mechanism defined to rectify the situation or to arbitrate a solution which is acceptable to all parties.

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

The N.R.A.I is considering withdrawal from the S.S.A.I.

Yes, but I'd heard that they'd since walked out of the SSAI because the SSAI wasn't making any moves towards addressing their concerns; I may have heard incorrectly. Doubtless if it's the case, they'll announce it in due course.

Sikamick

I would imagine that some of the Rep's from the SSAI view Boards.ie, one would think they would get their PRO, to clarify here on Boards for all concerned to see what's happening.

Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

And after the debacle of the AGM the other night God only knows what they might do.

The thing is that the AGM being closed isn't a debacle. It's within the SSAI rules to run it that way. You can't think of the SSAI as an NGB - it isn't. It is, as the SSAI itself said

an umbrella body for some shooting organisations within the Republic 
of Ireland.
It's main purpose is the distribution of funding as determined 
by the Irish Sports Council.

It is not an NGB (National Governing Body for Shooting Sports in Ireland).


It has no regulatory function or powers over Shooting sports in Ireland.

 Its officers are not authorised or empowered to act independently of the 
associated organisations which comprise the umbrella body.

It has no function in awarding or withholding recognition of NGB status to 
associations.

In other words, your NGB represents you; the SSAI is just a contact point to the NGBs for the Sports Council for the disbursement of funds.

I feel that they have to stay involved to get the problems sorted.

I honestly disagree. With the current structure of the SSAI, there's no possible mechanism that would let you sort anything out - it's an unincorporated association (a club) and until that changes, nothing that is said or written to change the rules of the SSAI will ever make a blind bit of difference to anyone. I mean, what's the point of written rules if the organisation is free to ignore them at will?

Sikamick

Sparks can you explain what the mechanism of funding is and how does it get to the clubs.

Sikamick

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

I would imagine that some of the Rep's from the SSAI view Boards.ie, one would think they would get their PRO, to clarify here on Boards for all concerned to see what's happening.
Sikamick

No, not unless they have €950 per post to be spending. This is why we've been explicitly pounding the rules from the admins on this onto every thread discussing this area of late -

Misuse of this forum will cost any shooting association €950 per post.
Hi there,

I went to our lawyers today to talk to them about the on going problems we have here with the misuse of this forum by national associations of Shooting. It was a VERY interesting meeting and this is the outcome.

By using our platform, against our express wishes, the said associations would be not only breaching our terms of service and our express wishes but also undermining our advertising model and thus damaging our business.

As such, with prior notice (such as this thread which I'm going to mail all of them), any officer or representative of any national or regional association who posts on this forum or the sub forums herein, either explicitly or under pretense or subterfuge to promote their association either explicitly or to promote their associations standpoint by subterfuge, will be deemed to have implicitly ACCEPTED A CHARGE OF €950 euro PER POST MADE. Posts made in this manner may (and most likely WILL) be removed without refund.

How will we know? Internet IP's and times can be queried at the ISP (under court order which we have gotten before quite readily) to reveal names and addresses of those who posted from them. If you think that wont stand up in court, we've already done this twice before and successfully convicted a hacker who attacked the site some years back. You are not at ALL anonymous on the internet.

The time and cost of this investigation will be added onto the costs incurred at €100 per hour of our time. Damages will then be filed for against the association for which the officer/representative will be deemed to have acted.

If you think we arent serious, think about MCD and our on going legal fight with them.

I know you all think you are big and clever. Let me tell you, you arent. This is our world online, you visit it but we built it and we ****in' own it.

Get lost before this gets nasty.

Perhaps now you understand why we've not been jumping up and down about NGB politics of late? It's not fair to demand answers from them if they can't post here!
(And yes, I know, that's the result of one particular individual, but assigning blame won't fix the problem, so let's not go there, allright?)

If all we're doing here is just throwing rocks at the SSAI, I can lock this thread right here and now; if we've something more constructive to do, let's do it, okay?

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

Sparks can you explain what the mechanism of funding is and how does it get to the clubs.
Sikamick

Clubs aren't funded by the state, never have been. NGBs are what gets funded.

edit: for "state", read "irish sports council"...

Red Renard

rrpc wrote: »

And seeing as people don't appear to have taken my advice, here's two threads from 2004/2005 which deal with this very subject.

AGM thread

Another thread

Should get you all up to speed.

Back to the future 2006 another vintage year! When was the NRPAI
formed,why was it's name changed in 04 are the minutes still available.

[/ quote sparks 2004] where on the Agenda that was so widely circulated was this motion put forward? Most AGMs have to have all the motions circulated in advance, from what small experience I've had with them.....

Thanks in advance its called sparks,even the most cunning of them all
would be impressed.:)

Sparks

Red Renard wrote: »

are the minutes still available

Yes.

Sikamick

Quote: http://homepage.eircom.net/~ntsai/AGM04.htm

Anyone aware of this AGM ...?

Anyone going to it...?

Do you need to be a member to attend..?

Any chance of a report on it afterwards...?
__________________
JayCee


__________________________________________________


I attended this meeting with a friend that was a member, I signed in as a guest, so obviously the meetings back then were open to any person with an interest in the shooting sports.

Sikamick

Sparks

It was open, yes Sika - but nobody who attended as a member of the general shooting public (as opposed to a nominated NGB representative) should have had a vote on the day. Basicly, the way it went on the day, you got to stick your hand in the air and that counted as equal to the vote of an NGB rep who was representing hundreds of other shooters - and all because you just turned up out of interest. Which, obviously, is grossly unfair and leaves the organisation grossly open to subversion (which is what some of us think actually happened on that particular day).

So an SSAI AGM that's closed to non-NGB reps, well I've zero problem with that.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

It was open, yes Sika - but nobody who attended as a member of the general shooting public (as opposed to a nominated NGB representative) should have had a vote on the day. Basicly, the way it went on the day, you got to stick your hand in the air and that counted as equal to the vote of an NGB rep who was representing hundreds of other shooters - and all because you just turned up out of interest. Which, obviously, is grossly unfair and leaves the organisation grossly open to subversion (which is what some of us think actually happened on that particular day).

So an SSAI AGM that's closed to non-NGB reps, well I've zero problem with that.

________________________________________________________________


Sparks I was invited by a friend, signed in as a guest and did not make any attempt to vote. If I had been told that I should not be there I would have been happy to leave.

At the time I new nothing of the politics or running of the NRPAI and would not be entitled to vote as a nonmember.

Sikamick

Sparks

Guests or Observers at an AGM are one thing Sika, it's when the question of who has a vote comes up that care needs to be taken. In '04, care wasn't taken, that's all I'm saying.

Bananaman

I only started shooting 06 - so I don't care.

I don't have an interest in the politics of shooting - so I don't care.

This thread looks like a load of bollix = a few of ye seeing how close to the fire ye can dance.

I just wasted a minute of my life reading this thing - I wonder who's the bigger eejit?

B'Man

Sparks

'Tis funny how many people say they have no interest in the politics of shooting, but as soon as someone even hints at new legislation that threatens their sport (or anything similar, especially if money's involved), they dive head-first into the politics with calls for "someone" to fix the problem or recriminations against "someone" for letting the problem show up at all, or rumours of how "someone" orchestrated it in return for safety for their sport.

I've never fully understood how people could think that it's bad to talk about how the sport is administered before such a threat occurs, but bad to not talk about it afterwards (when it does feck all good).

Why do so few people realise that before the problem arises is the time to take an interest in what "someone" is doing?

rrpc

In some respects I would agree with Bananaman. If the question had been asked in a straightforward manner in the first place, it would have been answered in a matter of a few posts and been put to bed in under a page.

I find it a bit ironic that there are people huffing and puffing about not being invited to the SSAI AGM (whether entitled or no) when we find it hard to get a quorum for others.

The secret is obviously to make it secret and then everyone will want to go

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

In some respects I would agree with Bananaman. If the question had been asked in a straightforward manner in the first place, it would have been answered in a matter of a few posts and been put to bed in under a page.

I find it a bit ironic that there are people huffing and puffing about not being invited to the SSAI AGM (whether entitled or no) when we find it hard to get a quorum for others.

The secret is obviously to make it secret and then everyone will want to go

_________________________________________________________________

My opinion only, if all the people that are entitled to attend were given proper notification of meetings within a reasonable time you might get the quorate to run them correctly.

Sikamick

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

In some respects I would agree with Bananaman. If the question had been asked in a straightforward manner in the first place, it would have been answered in a matter of a few posts and been put to bed in under a page.

On that point alone, I'd agree with him as well. But as to the rest... pfffft. This whole "I don't like politics" thing is just another manifestation of the 2% rule. Bitching, moaning, whining and outright fights, I can understand people not liking, but when it comes down to how you set up a shooting body or how you run a league or what rules everyone shoots under - tell me no-one's interested in that and I'll call you uninformed, if not downright ignorant. And that's the kind of thing that's meant to be handled at these AGMs (and often is, at least in the NTSA's case).

I find it a bit ironic that there are people huffing and puffing about not being invited to the SSAI AGM (whether entitled or no) when we find it hard to get a quorum for others.
The secret is obviously to make it secret and then everyone will want to go

I think it's more that prodg and sika are talking about the SSAI and you're talking about the NTSA, which they're not in and not really interested in.

PJ Hunter

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

My opinion only, if all the people that are entitled to attend were given proper notification of meetings within a reasonable time you might get the quorate to run them correctly.

Sikamick

from the sportscouncil site.

Core funding is used to support NGBs in the following areas; Strategic planning, Administration, Information technology, Core activities including Code of Ethics and Anti-doping Programmes, Competitions, Equipment, and the National Coaching Development Programme.



whats the grand total amount of money given over to the sport by the taxpayer.
is the money makin it down to the local clubs to buy equipment.
does the strategic planning by the ngbs helping to build the sport.
earlier replys on here dont make for good reading.:o

Sparks

PJ Hunter wrote: »

whats the grand total amount of money given over to the sport by the taxpayer.

That's a more complicated question than you'd think, because taxpayers money feeds into the sport through several routes.
The NGBs get approximately €70,000 (€35,000 to the ICPSA and the same to the SSAI). But athletes get carding grants directly (that varies year-to-year but a decent guesstimate is about €130,000 between rifle and shotgun shooters). There's also the sports capital grant, and the go for life grant and the myriad small local sports partnership grants, and there you'd have to find out what every local club got and tally them all up - all told, there might be up to €400,000 coming into all the shooting sports in total in a good year (we're quite a bit under that this year I think, though we had a good year on the capital grant front).

Thing is, that sounds dead impressive, but it isn't when you look at where the money goes (or realise that that's a little over €2 for every shooter...). There isn't someone out there with a cheque for nearly half a million, making out his or her list of the folks who'll benefit: read on.

is the money makin it down to the local clubs to buy equipment.

The NGB money? Yes and no (in practise, yes, but it's not meant to be that way). Can't say what the other (the remaining? not sure of the grammar there) SSAI NGBs do with their cut from the €35k the SSAI gets for its members, but the NTSA would send shooters abroad on it, and at least one club got a no-interest loan from them a few years back - so there is some trickle-down. But the money that goes to the NGBs is not meant to be used to fund clubs directly like that, it's meant to support the national level stuff (national squad training, international competitions, etc - you represent your country, so your country kicks in a bit towards the bill).

Since the total the NTSA would get in a year would be about 4.5k or so, and at the moment nearly 2.5k of that goes on the auditing fees (public monies, so auditing of accounts is necessary), there's not a lot to trickle down, despite the impressive-sounding totals.

On top of that, the SSAI funnels about half the core funding grant (before the split) into the Sport Development Officer who's meant to use it to fund clubs directly - I'm not sure how that's going on the ground, or even how it's implemented; but it's had the adverse side effect of starving NGBs of money from their core funding source which limits what they can do - never a good idea.

As far as the Sports Council is concerned though, the clubs are meant to receive money directly from the state through grants like the sports capital grant, the go for life grant, the LSP grants and so on. The shooters are meant to get it directly from the carding grants. Which is how they've organised their

does the strategic planning by the ngbs helping to build the sport.

Yes, in the same way that a map helps you drive to your destination.
In other words, if you didn't have it, you wouldn't get there - but if all you have is the map, you ain't drivin'...

earlier replys on here dont make for good reading.:o

Nope.

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

My opinion only, if all the people that are entitled to attend were given proper notification of meetings within a reasonable time you might get the quorate to run them correctly.

Sikamick

Not sure what you mean by this Mick. If you have a specific gripe with a specific body not announcing AGM's in a reasonable time frame, then say so. If you are not happy that the time frame is reasonable say so and define reasonable.

People can't fix things if they don't know they're broken.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

On that point alone, I'd agree with him as well. But as to the rest... pfffft. This whole "I don't like politics" thing is just another manifestation of the 2% rule. Bitching, moaning, whining and outright fights, I can understand people not liking, but when it comes down to how you set up a shooting body or how you run a league or what rules everyone shoots under - tell me no-one's interested in that and I'll call you uninformed, if not downright ignorant. And that's the kind of thing that's meant to be handled at these AGMs (and often is, at least in the NTSA's case).

Yes that's the bit that ges up my nose as well. Nobody's infallible, but to be told you're doing it all wrong when the people telling you would not involve themselves in the process and help to get it right in the first place, is teeth gnashingly infuriating. But c'est la vie I suppose.

I think it's more that prodg and sika are talking about the SSAI and you're talking about the NTSA, which they're not in and not really interested in.

Well that's a throwback to all the problems caused in 2004 and their aftermath. The point is that there are other levels at which people could involve themselves and would be very welcome to do so, but they don't appear to be interested (and I'm not talking about the NTSA here). At every level up to NGB there are problems getting volunteers or participants.

Except it appears where people are specifically excluded :rolleyes: