Meteor: €400 charge for 20 seconds!

Rebelheart

I've just spoken with a Meteor representative about my bill. I have been charged an obscene amount of money on my mobile phone bill. In the course of explaining to me that internet access through my phone was charged by kilobytes downloaded rather than time spent on GPRSWAP/the net, he said 'you could be charged €400 for 20 seconds access depending on what you download'.

Hello?

My bill was for just over €170 for less than 30 minutes access via my phone. Yes, re-read that. It is not a mistake. They billed me for 2 hours 29 minutes under the title 'Duration of Call'. Hence, his clarification above was that 'Duration of Call' was a misnomer on my bill and that he was not disputing that I was on for less than 30 minutes; rather, the kilobytes that I downloaded were converted into a time duration by meteor.

This fee itself is of course, outrageous. It is, amazingly, apparently legal under current Irish law. This is despite the lack of notification of these fees when you actually use GPRSWAP. I pointed this out to him and in response he said it is included on their website, and therefore they are legally covered- even though I was accessing the net via my phone where no such notification of these obscene charges exists. A simple 'You will be charged' message appears, which is a radically different level of consumer information, I'm sure you will agree, to 'You will be charged over €170 for less than 30 minutes'.

The second thing I pointed out to him was that the quality of the pages I was seeking to look at: they were not properly viewable even though they took ages to download. These were conventional sites- RTÉ etc- not online movies. He said that this was not Meteor's problem. They simply provided the service and it was up to the websites in question to fulfill their end.
In response to this, I suggested to him that if I bought a pair of shoes off a shoeshop and the shoes were faulty the shoeshop would be obliged under law to refund me as they were intermediaries in that sale. He rejected this and stood fast to the quality of the WAP service not being the responsibility of Meteor.

To put this in context, in 1997, in the days of ICQ/Mirc when internet in homes was still unusual, our internet bill was £150-£200 per month, for an atrociously slow connection (especially between 6pm and 8pm). In fairness there were several people here on it for ages, but moreover the cost was clearly linked to something everybody in Ireland could relate to: the price of a local call per minute. We could estimate the cost.

This WAP charge in 2008 is in a similar position: ripping off the public at the start of a relatively new technology before the regulators get in and sort it out. However, the major difference is that it is using a pricing system that is anything but clear- how do you know how many kilobytes your page is downloading, never mind what a kilobyte actually is? You don't.

What would you do about paying this bill?

Sam Vimes

i'm afraid you'll get no sympathy here. you should have read the prices before you used the service. every network except 3 has a similar pricing structure. that's why you don't use the internet unless you have a data package.

meteor offers two bill pay data packages:

250MB for €10

10GB for €30 (must be on talk 400 or above)

meteor presents the data used as a duration but it's actually the number of KB.

the second part represents KB
the minute part respresents KB*60
the minute part respresents KB*3600

for example, 4:05:14 would be:

(4*3600) + (5*60) +14= 14714kb

and at 2c per kb would cost €294.28

but with the data add on would cost €10 and leave lots more data available

tell me, if you were buying a car, would you walk into the show room, take the keys of a nice one, drive it around for a few weeks and only then decide to look at the price, possibly starting a thread here about the exorbitant price that you are now forced to pay?

edit:

also, you say that you were not informed of the price before using it. firstly, it's not their job to shove it in your face, it's your job to inform yourself of the price of a service before you use it. secondly, the phone doesn't flash up how much a call is going to cost before you make it either, but i bet you know how much that costs.

and you seem shocked that this is legal. they could charge ten billion euro a kilobyte if they wanted, no one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use it. it's the beauty of a free market

Lenny

Well meteor have made it .99c to surf the net for up toe 50MB's
but if you go over that 50mb to even 60mb it'll cost ya in the hundreds someone worked it out in the mobile section..
but they're well covered in there t&c on the data rates.. maybe ask them as a good will to half the bill?

seamus

Rebelheart wrote: »

My bill was for just over €170 for less than 30 minutes access via my phone. Yes, re-read that. It is not a mistake. They billed me for 2 hours 29 minutes under the title 'Duration of Call'. Hence, his clarification above was that 'Duration of Call' was a misnomer on my bill and that he was not disputing that I was on for less than 30 minutes; rather, the kilobytes that I downloaded were converted into a time duration by meteor.

That's pretty bizarre, but surely if they can convert from time into KB, they can convert back again and tell you how many KB you downloaded?

Back in the GSM days, browsing via WAP was basically ultra-slow dialup on your mobile. Unless you're still using WAP, you're probably browsing over GPRS or 3G, which is packet-switched rather than circuit-switched (connectionless rather than connected), so can't be billed by duration of the connection, rather it's billed by the volume of content downloaded.

So they must have some means of converting download volumes to a time, and back again.

In response to this, I suggested to him that if I bought a pair of shoes off a shoeshop and the shoes were faulty the shoeshop would be obliged under law to refund me as they were intermediaries in that sale.

That's not the same thing. That would be like demanding that a cinema refund you for a poor movie. Or demanding that a taxi driver refund you because you're not satisfied with the club that you asked him to bring you to.

Sam Vimes

Lenny wrote: »

Well meteor have made it .99c to surf the net for up toe 50MB's
but if you go over that 50mb to even 60mb it'll cost ya in the hundreds someone worked it out in the mobile section..
but they're well covered in there t&c on the data rates.. maybe ask them as a good will to half the bill?

that's only on pre pay

Sam Vimes

seamus wrote: »

So they must have some means of converting download volumes to a time, and back again.

see above for how to calculate it

it's not a time at all, it's a kb value made to fit into their table that can only display times. it takes the number of seconds and displays that as hours, minutes and seconds and unforunately does the same for kb

ArseBurger

Rebelheart wrote: »

The second thing I pointed out to him was that the quality of the pages I was seeking to look at: they were not properly viewable even though they took ages to download. These were conventional sites- RTÉ etc- not online movies. He said that this was not Meteor's problem. They simply provided the service and it was up to the websites in question to fulfill their end.

He's right. You can't blame the carrier for external content. They're not in charge of the Internet - they just provide you access. What you do with that access is up to you.

Sam Vimes

Rebelheart wrote: »

The second thing I pointed out to him was that the quality of the pages I was seeking to look at: they were not properly viewable even though they took ages to download. These were conventional sites- RTÉ etc- not online movies.

http://m.rte.ie

jor el

Rebelheart wrote: »

This fee itself is of course, outrageous. It is, amazingly, apparently legal under current Irish law. This is despite the lack of notification of these fees when you actually use GPRSWAP.

Why would you use a service, that you know you're going to be charged for, without checking exactly how much you would be charged. You could have even rang customer service and asked them, if you had no Internet connection to check their website. How is it amazing that this is legal? Any company can charge anything they like for a service. It's up to customers to decide whether to pay that or not. You used the service without actually checking it, so nobody to blame but yourself.

Rebelheart wrote: »

The second thing I pointed out to him was that the quality of the pages I was seeking to look at: they were not properly viewable even though they took ages to download. These were conventional sites- RTÉ etc- not online movies. He said that this was not Meteor's problem. They simply provided the service and it was up to the websites in question to fulfill their end.

So you want Meteor to do something about the quality of RTE's website? I'd like O2 to do something about the price of petrol, but it's not likely to happen.

Rebelheart wrote: »

In response to this, I suggested to him that if I bought a pair of shoes off a shoeshop and the shoes were faulty the shoeshop would be obliged under law to refund me as they were intermediaries in that sale. He rejected this and stood fast to the quality of the WAP service not being the responsibility of Meteor.

A more accurate analogy would be if you bought a pair of shoes, then go and complain to them about the quality of the ground you're walking on. Of course he rejected a ridiculous argument that has nothing to do with the service that they provided.

Rebelheart wrote: »

To put this in context, in 1997, in the days of ICQ/Mirc when internet in homes was still unusual, our internet bill was £150-£200 per month, for an atrociously slow connection (especially between 6pm and 8pm). In fairness there were several people here on it for ages, but moreover the cost was clearly linked to something everybody in Ireland could relate to: the price of a local call per minute. We could estimate the cost.

And you could also check directly with the operator and ask how much it would be. There was no need to estimate, then or now.

Rebelheart wrote: »

What would you do about paying this bill?

I wouldn't have such a bill, but if I did, I'd have to pay it.

Cabaal

Perfectly legal, its not meteors fault you used the service without checking.

Can I phone a mobile in the states on my landline and then bitch to my phone provider that it cost 50c a min? Yes I can but it does no good because its my fault for not checking what it cost first!

Meteor offer data bundles on billpay you should have bought one!

Lol people complaining about content, I once had a person complain about incorrect info on wikipedia because they accessed it through our network. they quickly shut up when I explained how everything works on wikipedia and its nothing to do with us, those were the days :pac:

Zynks

Cabaal wrote: »

Perfectly legal, its not meteors fault you used the service without checking.

It might be legal, but surely not good business practice. I know other operators and companies will put terms that screw people up for not reading the fine print, and yes, they can do it technically, but it doesn't make it right.

Still worthy of a post showing how Meteor will relieve you of your money if you are not careful :rolleyes:

chrislad

Zynks wrote: »

It might be legal, but surely not good business practice. I know other operators and companies will put terms that screw people up for not reading the fine print, and yes, they can do it technically, but it doesn't make it right.

Still worthy of a post showing how Meteor will relieve you of your money if you are not careful :rolleyes:

Meteor do inform you. If you access the default home page, there's a big link at the bottom for both Prepay and Billpay pricing. This page is free to view for all customers.

Sam has pretty much covered everything off here, so I don't see the need to repeat him, other than the fact that I think it's ridiculous that you expect a full web page that fits on a screen of at least 1024 * 768 resolution to fit onto a screen that's probably no more than 200 * 250.

derry

Having worked with some Telecoms rather the corrrect term telecoNs who shall remain nameless but all I can say is all the telecoNs are scum bags with meteor top ot the s***e pile

For mobile phone I only use pre pay Tesco at 20c per minute any time of the day and they can only rip me for the tenner in the credit

I once had Meteor prepay but they allowed those scum bag email message serviceswhich I never signed up too to access my credit for 2 euros a message
So the meteor phone went in the bin as Meteor abviously wouldn't stop these bandits getting my number and sending me unwarrented expensive messages

I can tell you myraids other scams all these other telecoNs do but I would be here all night

I got a present from the family for the 3 internet service in their names which costs 20 euros a month for a one year contract
In December when it runs out I will do pre paid credit for 25 euros a month as they cant hit me for the excess down loads if I strayed over 10 gbytes a month


Really when you join any phone service with a bank debit system you sign a blank cheuque with rip my face off written on the contract
I seen people get bills which were telephone numbers and they never made the calls but things happened and they ended up in a big crapper with the telecoN outfits

Dont trust any telecoNs and especially don't trust Meteor and try to pay through non debit solutions like post office or bills whatever but avoid bank debit orders whenever possible


Derry

Sam Vimes

meteor are required to deal with those companies. It's unfortunate and i wish your credit could be treated like a bank account where you can cancel direct debits but that's not the way it's set up and meteor would be breaking the law if they stopped it

would you not blame the company who took your credit rather than meteor who couldn't legally stop them?

eth0_

Zynks wrote: »

It might be legal, but surely not good business practice. I know other operators and companies will put terms that screw people up for not reading the fine print, and yes, they can do it technically, but it doesn't make it right.

Why should Meteor write off the charge? The OP acted like an idiot. He should have checked the charges for internet access before using it, and then used WAP sites, not regular, bloated webpages as he has admitted viewing on his phone!

Would the OP be up in arms if he'd rung Australia and been charged 3 euro a minute, because there was no recorded message telling him how much the call would cost? No.

I.S.T.

eth0_ wrote: »

Why should Meteor write off the charge? The OP acted like an idiot. He should have checked the charges for internet access before using it, and then used WAP sites, not regular, bloated webpages as he has admitted viewing on his phone!

Acted like an idiot??? Are you for real??

eth0_ wrote: »

Would the OP be up in arms if he'd rung Australia and been charged 3 euro a minute, because there was no recorded message telling him how much the call would cost? No.

He browsed Irish websites, not websites in Mars. Do you really think it costs Meteor anything even in the same ballpark as 2c per kb to provide this service. This is a massive rip off.

I think the OP has a point. How difficult would it be for the mobile phone provider to display a message showing you how much you will be charged before you go online. It would be easy to do this. Why don't you ask yourself why they don't do this?

Rebelheart wrote:

how do you know how many kilobytes your page is downloading, never mind what a kilobyte actually is? You don't.

That is a very good point.

Paulw

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Acted like an idiot??? Are you for real??

I have to agree that he acted like an idiot. Find out the rates before you make expensive calls or web browse on a phone.

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

He browsed Irish websites, not websites in Mars.

It doesn't matter where in the world the website is. Data still has to travel, and in fact, it may still travel via the US or Europe to get to the phone.

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

I think the OP has a point. How difficult would it be for the mobile phone provider to display a message showing you how much you will be charged before you go online. It would be easy to do this. Why don't you ask yourself why they don't do this?

Maybe because the phone provider has no idea what websites you will visit or how much data you will download???? Maybe because each website page doesn't show (in advance) how much data is on each page???

They do display their rates (all operators do) on their website. Click on any of them and check the rates for calls and data. It's not hard. Then you'll have a better idea if it's worth your while browsing using your phone or not. Of course, you still don't know how much data is on a page you may visit before you visit it.

No point in blaming the mobile operator because you don't know what you're doing.

I.S.T.

Paulw wrote: »

I have to agree that he acted like an idiot. Find out the rates before you make expensive calls or web browse on a phone.




It doesn't matter where in the world the website is. Data still has to travel, and in fact, it may still travel via the US or Europe to get to the phone.



Maybe because the phone provider has no idea what websites you will visit or how much data you will download???? Maybe because each website page doesn't show (in advance) how much data is on each page???

They do display their rates (all operators do) on their website. Click on any of them and check the rates for calls and data. It's not hard. Then you'll have a better idea if it's worth your while browsing using your phone or not. Of course, you still don't know how much data is on a page you may visit before you visit it.

No point in blaming the mobile operator because you don't know what you're doing.

In any other business transaction, especially where the customer is going to be charged exorbitant rates, the customer had to be notified in advance of the charges. Look at all those ads for downloading ringtones or signing up for horoscopes. They have to clearly tell you how much the charge is. Can you tell me why this should be any different? Why can't the homepage on the phone default to a page that notifies you of the charges?

Sam Vimes

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

He browsed Irish websites, not websites in Mars. Do you really think it costs Meteor anything even in the same ballpark as 2c per kb to provide this service. This is a massive rip off.

no one's claiming it's not a rip off. we're making the point that the pricing information was available to him beforehand and he had the opportunity to say to himself "that's a rip off so i'm not going to use the service". but he did it the wrong way round

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

I think the OP has a point. How difficult would it be for the mobile phone provider to display a message showing you how much you will be charged before you go online. It would be easy to do this. Why don't you ask yourself why they don't do this?

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Why can't the homepage on the phone default to a page that notifies you of the charges?

if you'd read the whole thread you'd have seen this:

chrislad wrote: »

Meteor do inform you. If you access the default home page, there's a big link at the bottom for both Prepay and Billpay pricing. This page is free to view for all customers.

so the OP could have checked the price:

• on the meteor website
• on the home page on his phone just before browsing
• by calling customer care
• by asking on the mobiles forum
• by asking the huge number of people who know that the internet on phones is expensive

the information was available but he chose not to read it

I.S.T.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

no one's claiming it's not a rip off. we're making the point that the pricing information was available to him beforehand and he had the opportunity to say to himself "that's a rip off so i'm not going to use the service". but he did it the wrong way round



if you'd read the whole thread you'd have seen this:


so the OP could have checked the price:

• on the meteor website
• on the home page on his phone just before browsing
• by calling customer care
• by asking on the mobiles forum
• by asking the huge number of people who know that the internet on phones is expensive

the information was available but he chose not to read it

I didn't read all the thread so if it's on the home page on the phone then he really has no excuse, as long at it states that actual rates, not just a statement saying you will be charged.

Paulw

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

In any other business transaction, especially where the customer is going to be charged exorbitant rates, the customer had to be notified in advance of the charges. Look at all those ads for downloading ringtones or signing up for horoscopes. They have to clearly tell you how much the charge is. Can you tell me why this should be any different? Why can't the homepage on the phone default to a page that notifies you of the charges?

Maybe you should look at those ringtone and such websites/download ads a bit closer.

"Normal operator charges (WAP, GPRS, SMS) apply"

They quote a fixed price PLUS state that network charges will apply. So, you pay whatever the price is (€2.99) and then you pay a fee to the operator for the download of the amount of data for the content. Most people don't spot this.

As has been stated, all operators display the cost for downloading data, if people just take a little time to look. I believe that operators generally have prices for browsing their own content pages (very cheap or free) and then charge other amounts for browsing outside their network.

All the pricing data is there to be seen.

Cabaal

Paulw wrote: »

I believe that operators generally have prices for browsing their own content pages (very cheap or free) and then charge other amounts for browsing outside their network.

All the pricing data is there to be seen.

Operators generally have there own content for free alright, Three is one example....anything outside there wall garden costs you money to view.

I'd agree the info is certainly available its just upto the consumer to ensure they read it

I.S.T.

Paulw wrote: »

Maybe you should look at those ringtone and such websites/download ads a bit closer.

"Normal operator charges (WAP, GPRS, SMS) apply"

They quote a fixed price PLUS state that network charges will apply. So, you pay whatever the price is (€2.99) and then you pay a fee to the operator for the download of the amount of data for the content. Most people don't spot this.

As has been stated, all operators display the cost for downloading data, if people just take a little time to look. I believe that operators generally have prices for browsing their own content pages (very cheap or free) and then charge other amounts for browsing outside their network.

All the pricing data is there to be seen.

That's not what I am talking about. I am talking about services where you send a text madonna to 54321 or whatever number it is and they send you a madonna ringtone. It is clearly stated on the ads how much it will cost you, and if it is a subscription how to cancel it.

Sam Vimes

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

That's not what I am talking about. I am talking about services where you send a text madonna to 54321 or whatever number it is and they send you a madonna ringtone. It is clearly stated on the ads how much it will cost you, and if it is a subscription how to cancel it.

what about them? you say that they show the price right there in the ad and meteor have a link called "Mobile internet pricing" right there on their home page. what's the problem?

ArseBurger

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

He browsed Irish websites, not websites in Mars. Do you really think it costs Meteor anything even in the same ballpark as 2c per kb to provide this service. This is a massive rip off.

That they're Irish is irrelevant. They could actually be on Mars.

Also, your view of the cost to provide the service is simplistic at best. Firstly, Ireland has the highest rental rate for mast usage in the world. Then you have to install the masts. Then put kit on them. Then run the kit. Then backhaul it. Pay for backhaul licenses. Then have a Core Network with mediation platforms and billing systems etc... This Core network needs to get on to the Internet somehow. All the above kit needs to be sourced from a Telco vedor. You have to pay for support on it too. And depreciation for replacement / upgrade down the line. Now you need an Operations department to run all this. Not to mention an Engineering department. Then there's IT. Then you have the commercial and financial sides of the business. It all adds up.

And that's still a simplistic description.

I.S.T.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

what about them? you say that they show the price right there in the ad and meteor have a link called "Mobile internet pricing" right there on their home page. what's the problem?

I didn't know the meteor mobile home page showed the rates when I made that post.

I.S.T.

ArseBurger wrote: »

That they're Irish is irrelevant. They could actually be on Mars.

Also, your view of the cost to provide the service is simplistic at best. Firstly, Ireland has the highest rental rate for mast usage in the world. Then you have to install the masts. Then put kit on them. Then run the kit. Then backhaul it. Pay for backhaul licenses. Then have a Core Network with mediation platforms and billing systems etc... This Core network needs to get on to the Internet somehow. All the above kit needs to be sourced from a Telco vedor. You have to pay for support on it too. And depreciation for replacement / upgrade down the line. Now you need an Operations department to run all this. Not to mention an Engineering department. Then there's IT. Then you have the commercial and financial sides of the business. It all adds up.

And that's still a simplistic description.

Erm, isn't most of that in place already and paid for by phone calls and (overpriced SMS messages)? Mobile phone companies make very healthy profits.

Do you agree 2c a kb (€20.48 a Mb) is a fair price?

ArseBurger

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Erm, isn't most of that in place already and paid for by phone calls and (overpriced SMS messages)? Mobile phone companies make very healthy profits.

Not necessarily. Circuit vs Packet.

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Do you agree 2c a kb (€20.48 a Mb) is a fair price?

It's not unreasonable.

Cabaal

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

Erm, isn't most of that in place already and paid for by phone calls and (overpriced SMS messages)? Mobile phone companies make very healthy profits.

Do you agree 2c a kb (€20.48 a Mb) is a fair price?

is 30e for 3MB Broadband a fair price when you can get 30MB in other countries for the same?, a company is in it to make money if a customer does not want to pay the money then they don't have to use the service.

As already mentioned Meteor offer data bundles that would have stopped the OP from spending so much but if the OP is not prepared to actually look at the meteor website or call meteor on there freephone number then what are meteor to do?

The OP must accept that they have made a mistake and they should pay up and move on and ensure that they educate themselfs better in future.

derry

Cabaal wrote:

....snip...

The OP must accept that they have made a mistake and they should pay up and move on and ensure that they educate themselfs better in future.

At least lots of us now are more informed and can opt to avoid meteor

A lot of pay as you go costomers dont knowthat meteor rates callfrom land lines to thier phones through the eircom service is often 50% higher than other companies

If some body gives me a meteor number I often tell them I refuse to call them from my landline as it costs me 50 % more than a 02 or Vodophone number and so I text them and tell them to ring me

I also check if the number which might be 086 087 is now a meteor serviced phone and if it is it get the meteor treatment

Having worked for some of the TeleecoNs I can tell you they are all scum bags with some hidden way to rip your face but meteor are the top of the s***e pile for the dirty tricks

Derry

craichoe

Jaysus thats madness.

Vodafone Netherlands give 30 days unlimited internet for 10 euros. Think i downloaded 30 gigabytes on my last payment