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Government increases threshold for over-70s medical card
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16-10-2008 8:51pm#1Irish Times wrote:The Government has bowed to pressure and increased the eligibility threshold set for medical cards and GP visit cards issued to those aged 70 or over.
Under the original plans put forward in the Budget on Tuesday, anyone aged 70 or over who had a net weekly income of less than €201.50 for a single person living alone, €173.50 for a single person living with family, or €298 for a married couple would qualify for a medical card.
This limit has now been increased to €240.30 for a single person, or €480.60 for a couple, which is the same as the highest amount of a State contributory pension. Those who earn above this threshold will be questioned further.
Full article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1016/breaking66.htm
The original plan it turns out was a fecking joke. Taking some of the people whose only income is the State contributory pension off the medical card scheme was a crazy idea. I'm very happy that they've seen the light and upped the limit over the contributory pension level.0
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I thought Mary Harney told all the "disgruntled FF backbenchers" that there would be no climb down on this this afternoon and they say a week is a long time in politics! :rolleyes:0
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How in God's name are old people expected to live on the amounts envisaged by the Government - and pay for medicine too?
Is the idea of all this to shorten the lives of old people to save the State the burden of their care?0 -
How in God's name are old people expected to live on the amounts envisaged by the Government - and pay for medicine too?
Is the idea of all this to shorten the lives of old people to save the State the burden of their care?
im disgusted by this climbdown , old people have had it great in this country for many years now , even those who would have no longer qualified for a medical card would have recieved a 400 euro a yr grant , old does not equal poor , in fact i would say thier are more wealthy people over 70 when you take into account thier lack of debt than those in thier thirties0 -
I'm cynical enough to at least give some credence to the theory that this whole thing was deliberate where the goal was a) to distract from all the other taxes and b) to give the backbenchers something to complain about and win so they can go back to their constituencies and say "I fought those Ministers for you and won!".0
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My mother who lives in working class Finglas and is mortgage/rent free as my parents worked all their life to pay for the house is on a state pension of €223 a week plus a pension of about 30quid a week from my deceased dad's job.
According to that threshold of €203 net a week, she is too rich to have the medical card.
Now we hear they've upped it to €240 net a week so she might scrape through.
She voted for FF on the basis of €300 a week pensions and she along with her elderly working class friends are screwed to save a measly €100m in the public finances when the same FF threw €500m at the builders to help them sell their houses.irish_bob wrote:im disgusted by this climbdown , old people have had it great in this country for many years now , even those who would have no longer qualified for a medical card would have recieved a 400 euro a yr grant , old does not equal poor , in fact i would say thier are more wealthy people over 70 when you take into account thier lack of debt than those in thier thirties
I'm disgusted by your distorted view. Remove the rich ones yes, not the poor ones.
Working class elderly folk are been struck off by this. A GP card won't take care of them while in hospital nor the drugs fees of 100euro per mth.0 -
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I'm cynical enough to at least give some credence to the theory that this whole thing was deliberate where the goal was a) to distract from all the other taxes and b) to give the backbenchers something to complain about and win so they can go back to their constituencies and say "I fought those Ministers for you and won!".
Down the bog it'll be "I made them Dublin feckers back down"
The real theft in this budget is the child benefit. Everybody with a child under 18 is going to lose the equivalent of 2 grand for each child.0 -
im disgusted by this climbdown , old people have had it great in this country for many years now , even those who would have no longer qualified for a medical card would have recieved a 400 euro a yr grant , old does not equal poor , in fact i would say thier are more wealthy people over 70 when you take into account thier lack of debt than those in thier thirties
Its only right and proper that the Government has amended an ill thought out scheme. I have not met many of these old people who have had it great for years. That is rubbish. Things have only been good in Ireland since about 1998 to now and it is the younger generation who have benefited the most. New houses, new cars, several holidays blah blah. What did old people get a bit of free travel on the odd train or bus, a small fuel allowance. The tiger passed many of these people by. Some may own their own home but that does not make them rich as one has to live somewhere. SO Bob your post is an inaccurate generalisation IMO.0 -
My mother who lives in working class Finglas and is mortgage/rent free as my parents worked all their life to pay for the house is on a state pension of €223 a week plus a pension of about 30quid a week from my deceased dad's job.
According to that threshold of €203 net a week, she is too rich to have the medical card.
Now we hear they've upped it to €240 net a week so she might scrape through.
She voted for FF on the basis of €300 a week pensions and she along with her elderly working class friends are screwed to save a measly €100m in the public finances when the same FF threw €500m at the builders to help them sell their houses.
I'm disgusted by your distorted view. Remove the rich ones yes, not the poor ones.
Working class elderly folk are been struck off by this. A GP card won't take care of them while in hospital nor the drugs fees of 100euro per mth.
all your mum has to buy with her pension is food and whatever she spends on entertainment which i imagine is not much , her electricity is free , she gets a fuel allowance , free tv licence and she also gets a living alone allowance , if she lived in the uk , she would not have it near as good , oh and the worked hard all thier life is getting tiresome , even people who have parents ( and im not suggesting your parents ) who were bone idle claim thier parents worked hard all thier life , im not joe duffy , that doesnt wash with me0 -
She voted for FF on the basis of €300 a week pensions and she along with her elderly working class friends are screwed to save a measly €100m in the public finances when the same FF threw €500m at the builders to help them sell their houses.
then she will know not to vote for them in fututre. The problem in ireland is that government is essentailly FF+fruit cordial mix of coalition parties.
People should just say f-this and vote for a different party but in ireland its hard wired into people which is not what democracy is about.0 -
all your mum has to buy with her pension is food and whatever she spends on entertainment which i imagine is not much , her electricity is free , she gets a fuel allowance , free tv licence and she also gets a living alone allowance , if she lived in the uk , she would not have it near as good , oh and the worked hard all thier life is getting tiresome , even people who have parents ( and im not suggesting your parents ) who were bone idle claim thier parents worked hard all thier life , im not joe duffy , that doesnt wash with me
You really have a distorted view of what it's like to be old.
News to you, older people get sick hell of alot more often than younger workers like us. They cannot work to afford things hence they need a sufficient pension to get by.
Most people bar the professional classes who are over 65 now did not have enough of a portion of their salary put aside into a pension because they paid tax through the roof in the 70's and 80's, they could not afford a private pension.
They and your parents also paid those taxes to help you grow up through availability of child benefits, think about that for a moment.
Free allowances for the home is only a start, it won't protect them against illnesses which require lots of money to pay for and thats the crux of the problem.
They will visit A&E more often then you would, finding 100quid for that and and another 1200 per year for drugs is very challenging for someone on less than 250 per week.
God forbid if there is a hospital stay and outpatient care, your talking thousands of euro to get that.
You must have an elderly relative to have a clue whats it's really like??0 -
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You really have a distorted view of what it's like to be old.
News to you, older people get sick hell of alot more often than younger workers like us. They cannot work to afford things hence they need a sufficient pension to get by.
Most people bar the professional classes who are over 65 now did not have enough of a portion of their salary put aside into a pension because they paid tax through the roof in the 70's and 80's, they could not afford a private pension.
They and your parents also paid those taxes to help you grow up through availability of child benefits, think about that for a moment.
Free allowances for the home is only a start, it won't protect them against illnesses which require lots of money to pay for and thats the crux of the problem.
They will visit A&E more often then you would, finding 100quid for that and and another 1200 per year for drugs is very challenging for someone on less than 250 per week.
God forbid if there is a hospital stay and outpatient care, your talking thousands of euro to get that.
You must have an elderly relative to have a clue whats it's really like??
250 a week is not bad when all you have to buy for yourself is food , everything else if paid for you by the state , as people are living longer now , the wellfare state needs to be cut back , its the responsibility of everyone to make sure they have the resources in place when the get older , the state cant afford to bail everyone out no matter how important thier vote is , besides i believe a lot of this protestation over the medical cards is down to the kids of theese pensioners worrying that thier mum or dads money will be spent on medication and thier share of the will be will be lessened0 -
250 a week is not bad when all you have to buy for yourself is food , everything else if paid for you by the state , as people are living longer now , the wellfare state needs to be cut back , its the responsibility of everyone to make sure they have the resources in place when the get older , the state cant afford to bail everyone out no matter how important thier vote is , besides i believe a lot of this protestation over the medical cards is down to the kids of theese pensioners worrying that thier mum or dads money will be spent on medication and thier share of the will be will be lessened
Some proper research might not go amiss on all of this. There is absolutely no foundation to any of it, beyond the seriously questionable attitude you appear to have towards the elderly and the fairly ludicrous insight into the actions or thoughts of their progeny.0 -
250 a week is not bad when all you have to buy for yourself is food , everything else if paid for you by the state , as people are living longer now , the wellfare state needs to be cut back , its the responsibility of everyone to make sure they have the resources in place when the get older , the state cant afford to bail everyone out no matter how important thier vote is , besides i believe a lot of this protestation over the medical cards is down to the kids of theese pensioners worrying that thier mum or dads money will be spent on medication and thier share of the will be will be lessened
LOL, you are having a laugh?
You have some twisted view that a working class vulnerable old person has rich kids who can afford their healthcare!:rolleyes:
What about the elderly who have no kids OR kids who couldn't care less about them OR kids who are poor like themselves??
You mentioned the UK, you do not pay much for healthcare there, they treat you on the spot for free, its called the NHS.
Regarding food, it may come as news to you but the elderly cannot go to the supermarket and carry stuff home. They cannot do home delivery as they do not how to use a computer or not able to empty those shopping bags in the home because they are WEAK.
So they have to eat out and that costs money.
Lets see a scenario. I'm 71 years of age and have a heart problem. I've been carted off in an ambulance 7 times this year due to chest pains with overnight stays in each as well as the worry of 6hr stays in casualty.
I only qualify for a GP card which is useless in an emergency at 3am in the morning when i need care ASAP.
I'll be hammered with 700 for visiting A&E, another 900 for those overnight stays and my drugs to keep me alive costs me €1,200 a year.
So i need €2,800 a year before aftercare and checkups are taken into account, the above scenario does happen alot to heart patients as i know a few in my locality.
If i need that heart operation, i'll have to find at least €12,000. Private health insurers won't touch me as i'm too high a risk plus i wouldn't be able to afford the premium.
Your policy comes across as lets only take care of the strongest in society and those too weak to take care of themselves, well sod it :mad:0 -
As Victor Hugo said in Les Miserables: "Old people need love as they need sunshine; it is warmth."
Perhaps in Ireland, we don't care about that any more.0 -
All very well. but take my parents. Both mid-sixties, so not at 70 yet. Both have teachers pensions. thats about 30-40K each ( I dont know exactly but it is a percentage of teachers final pay and linked via benchmarking, not inflation). Both have nest eggs from retirement and the house is worth about a million. Bought for tuppence. Fairly common scenario. A lucky generation. No travel costs, no fuel costs etc.
Per capita net income ( to spend on food) about 30K each. net worth 500K each ( declining radpidly). They travel a bit.
Then take a family in their thirties. One breadearner. 50K. Bought a 400K house recently. Cost is about 1,700-2000 euro a month. Take home pay about 36K. Entire house will cost 650K over it's lifetime. Not in as nice an area as my folks.
Net income after housing. 12-14K. Net Income after bills, internet ( essential for the job), car maintance etc - 8-9K. Two kids. ChildCare costs 3-4K. Per capita discretionary spending about €2-4K per person, at best. And they need to save for college.
Thats a guess at a siblings life ( I myself am single). i hesitate to ask the real figures.
So should mu father get the medical card? he says no. ( My mom says yes but plays the old=poor argument).
And they are lower-middle class retirees ( albeit dual income). What about the rich in dalkey.
When the people outside Northern Rock during the run were interviewed they were rich and old, taking out their last million. And they looked ordinary.
In the richest suburbs in Ireland, and on the richest golfcourses I see the old or late middle aged.
sSo increase the treshold but remove the entire blanket coverage. And remove free travel too.0 -
im disgusted by this climbdown , old people have had it great in this country for many years now , even those who would have no longer qualified for a medical card would have recieved a 400 euro a yr grant , old does not equal poor , in fact i would say thier are more wealthy people over 70 when you take into account thier lack of debt than those in thier thirties
The OAP are not getting enough. Their taxes built the likes of Eircom, Aer Lingusand ESB over the years while majority of the taxpayers lived hand to mouth. The government made and will make billions on selling them, what return do the OAP get , abuse!0 -
Anyone who backed Harney in the recent post regarding whether she should resign or not should really review their standing. This is a disgraceful move, I've no problem with someone with a million quid and a helicopter not getting the card but to have it so just about anyone on tuppance a ha'penny above the old age pension is disgraceful.
There is no comparing this to childrens allowance, having children is a choice, getting old isn't. What's this nonsense that all you have to do is pay for your food? Free travel, yes but only if you live near a bus stop or rail line, there'll be the grand kids to be looking after, your house will also be old so it will need more maintenance and repair - who the hell wants to move house when you're in your 70's??? If you've half a brain you'll make allowances for funeral expenses and we all know that if you're not busy earning money you're busy spending it. Hell you'll be bored so of course you're going to spend money!
I didn't know oaps get free electricity, does this extend to gas/oil? Clothes, run a car, take a holiday(I plan on taking several when I retire) The point also seems to be missed that older people need more medical care - what use is 400 quid when you've alzheimers and the likes or need home help or are house bound?? Without a shadow of a doubt FF/PD have shown once again that health care will not be provided for on the basis of need but on the ability to pay. How much more proof do you want?
Finally Irish Bob, you may be old one day.0 -
The most vulnerable people in society are the old and young, this budget has attacked both. Harney and the rest of the incompetants are the political equivalant of MRSA.0
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I've no problem with someone with a million quid and a helicopter not getting the card
Do they have to have the helicopter? I personally think that no retired civil servant should get it. But no amount of actual statistics will change ideologies.Finally Irish Bob, you may be old one day.
And you can be damed sure that when Irish_bob, or I, or most people here are old we will have **** all pensions, proably have to work until 70 , and most people will have nothing like the assets the present older generation has.
From 2040 Ireland will not be able to afford the pensions. So we wont get them.0 -
Well if you don't have a pension then you may have a chance of getting a medical card.
No retired civil servant? On any payscale? even though they'll have 40 years of prsi stamps paid? Sounds like a bit of private sector bias there.0 -
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No retired civil servant? On any payscale?
all civil servants earn far more money on retirement than when they start even if they stay at the bottom ( which is unlikely, promotions are seniority based).
So if they end up with no mortgage, a civil servant pension, and a big old house, no.
The present day private sector has none of that.
By the way I already gave the per-capita statistics. The middle income workers are poorer in real terms than people with decent pensions.
old != poor.0 -
You've a very slanted view of the civil service pay scales all of which are freely available on the dept of finance's website, check out a grade 3 clerical officer and tell me they're better off then the private sector?
Ignore the massive salaries in the private sector too while you're at it, 3 million a year for the head of a bank who got us into this crisis in the first place, ever heard of the dot com boom? you make out that people in the private sector are all on minimum wage and none of them are in guarenteed pension schemes. You also assume every civil servant stays in their job for 40 years, otherwise I can assure you the pension is worth shag all to you.
The fact is that you get less then 40% of your salary per year(assuming 40 years full service) when you retire as a civil/public servant - how do you equate that to "all civil servants earn far more money on retirement than when they start even if they stay at the bottom "
Promotions aren't seniority based, they are based on interviews, qualifications and experience. Like I already said, private sector bias, wait till things pick up in the private sector(which is heavily reliant on work for the public sector) guys with degrees running off to building sites to earn 100K a year laying bricks.0 -
Ignore the massive salaries in the private sector too while you're at it, 3 million a year for the head of a bank who got us into this crisis in the first place, ever heard of the dot com boom?
An argument to extremes is not an argument. The head of a bank is a member of the Boss class. We are talking about relative workers rates ( although most people here would give the banker a medical card at 70)
i said nothing about a minimum wage. Regardless of wage most private sector workers - 70% - do not have "guaranteed" pension schemes.you make out that people in the private sector are all on minimum wage and none of them are in guarenteed pension schemes.You also assume every civil servant stays in their job for 40 years, otherwise I can assure you the pension is worth shag all to you.
Thats up to them. Argument to extremes again. Most do.The fact is that you get less then 40% of your salary per year(assuming 40 years full service) when you retire as a civil/public servant - how do you equate that to "all civil servants earn far more money on retirement than when they start even if they stay at the bottom "
I meant their salary on retirement. The pension is up to 60% of the final wage. Given no outgoings these retirees are sitting very pretty indeed.0 -
An argument to extremes is not an argument. The head of a bank is a member of the Boss class. We are talking about relative workers rates ( although most people here would give the banker a medical card at 70)
i said nothing about a minimum wage. Regardless of wage most private sector workers - 70% - do not have "guaranteed" pension schemes.
Thats up to them. Argument to extremes again. Most do.
I meant their salary on retirement. The pension is up to 60% of the final wage. Given no outgoings these retirees are sitting very pretty indeed.
Ok you can get 41% tax relief on a private pension scheme, you dont get this on a public service. Whether is guarenteed or not is up to the how much the individual is willing to pay.
Your source on people staying 40 years in the service, I've worked in it for ten years and can assure you there's been huge turnover during the good years.
I got my pension statement last week and the salary per year was about 40%, haven't heard of the 60% one.0 -
nhughes100 wrote: »Anyone who backed Harney in the recent post regarding whether she should resign or not should really review their standing. This is a disgraceful move, I've no problem with someone with a million quid and a helicopter not getting the card but to have it so just about anyone on tuppance a ha'penny above the old age pension is disgraceful.
There is no comparing this to childrens allowance, having children is a choice, getting old isn't. What's this nonsense that all you have to do is pay for your food? Free travel, yes but only if you live near a bus stop or rail line, there'll be the grand kids to be looking after, your house will also be old so it will need more maintenance and repair - who the hell wants to move house when you're in your 70's??? If you've half a brain you'll make allowances for funeral expenses and we all know that if you're not busy earning money you're busy spending it. Hell you'll be bored so of course you're going to spend money!
I didn't know oaps get free electricity, does this extend to gas/oil? Clothes, run a car, take a holiday(I plan on taking several when I retire) The point also seems to be missed that older people need more medical care - what use is 400 quid when you've alzheimers and the likes or need home help or are house bound?? Without a shadow of a doubt FF/PD have shown once again that health care will not be provided for on the basis of need but on the ability to pay. How much more proof do you want?
Finally Irish Bob, you may be old one day.
pensioners get a fuel allowance , pensioners who,s spouse has died get a living alone allowance also , as ive said before , compared to our nearest neighbour , pensioners her have it way better , the way i see it and hear it from listening to liveline , people seem to believe that no one will qualify for the medical card where as in reality their will be no poor pensioners who will have to pay the doctor but then again in here poor seems to mean anyone with thier own house who,s income is less than 250 euro a week0 -
so basically according to irishbob after an old person has outlived their usefulness to society ie retired we basically forget about them a kind of thank you sir/madam for your contribution to society over the past 40-50 years that you have worked hard and rasied families through - in the decades of economic decline and hardship.. but sure your used to hardship here have another 10-15 years of hardship of living alone on your own wondering about how your going to pay for your medical and living expenses...
irishbob you are a symptom of what is wrong with this generation of greed and materialism who are only interested in themselves.
yes there are a number of rich pensioners but there are a vast vast majority who are not and rely on the provisions the state give them.0 -
so basically according to irishbob after an old person has outlived their usefulness to society ie retired we basically forget about them a kind of thank you sir/madam for your contribution to society over the past 40-50 years that you have worked hard and rasied families through - in the decades of economic decline and hardship.. but sure your used to hardship here have another 10-15 years of hardship of living alone on your own wondering about how your going to pay for your medical and living expenses...
irishbob you are a symptom of what is wrong with this generation of greed and materialism who are only interested in themselves.
yes there are a number of rich pensioners but there are a vast vast majority who are not and rely on the provisions the state give them.
its the tight fisted pensioners and most likely their kids scared of loosing out on a chunk of thier inherritence who are the ones that are greedy and only interested in themselves, paying for a medical card for theese people is taking bread off the table for kids who are in real poverty , the fact is the elderly are looked after extremly well in this country0 -
no , im a realist unlike you who are a sentimentalist on the subject , the country cannot afford this
Cutting the medical cards for the over 70's will apparently save €100m, a comparatively small sum compared to total government spending, but it may bring great hardship to those affected.
If you are saying the country cannot afford €100m, then remember this the next time one of the governments' pet projects comes up and they suggest spending €100m on a new government jet or indulging independent TDs whims to keep them supporting the government. Presumably with things so tight, we also can't afford to waste taxpayers money holding another Lisbon Treaty vote or encouraging people to vote YES in such a vote !
A combination of a small increase in the pint in the budget along with a bit less help for the builders and the medical card cuts wouldn't have been necessary. Of course, Fianna Fail couldn't afford to upset its friends in the building industry and bar trade.0 -
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