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Question about spelling and grammar in Ireland
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Join Date:Posts: 28680
Matt Holck wrote: »I think it's social responsibility as in
we are responsible
not just the educators
The Irish constitution, I believe, dictates that parents are the primary educators, before a child is introduced to any kind of state education. It has also been argued that life is a learning process. Thus, an individual's learning is not limited to what they are exposed to by teachers. By this reasoning we all are both teachers and learners, and throughout our existence we continue to attain and empart skills and knowledge.
Basically, I agree with your point
Powerhouse wrote: »That is the idea, though you inadvertently swapped the headings here. To go back to the original example, 'whom' is the objective case version.
The claims by some that this stuff has ceased to exist just because they don't have the first clue about it is the height of arrogance.
I also agree with this point. At the risk of repeating an earlier point, I still say that just because ammendments have been made to how English is spoken in certain dialects (North American being the most notable here), the same conventions of written language remain(apart from obvious spelling differences such as s/z, ou/o, etc). What has changed in education is the level of priority given to teaching certain conventions as opposed to others.
The current objective is to enable each child to communicate with those around them, regardless of their family background, creed, race or nationality. If the writing assignment of a 7 year old child is phonetically correct then his/her writing can be understood by the teacher. In this respect it can be said that most are educated successfully. Once this stage has been achieved the more precise details of the English language become the priority. However, as so many subjects must be allocated minimum time-allowances in the curriculum, those who need extra help in acquiring the command of said details may lose out.
The blame for this situation may be laid at the feet of qualified teachers, at parents or at society as a whole. However, as Powerhouse put it, "this stuff" has not ceased to exist. Certain "rules" are now perceived by the majority as guidelines, which are followed at the writer's discretion rather than being enforced.
The lack of an official body to enforce the rules is irrelevent. The Irish language (Gaeilge) was standardised in the last century (an Caighdeán Oifigiúil) so that the written Irish word could be understood by all who spoke the language, while still recognising the existence of at least 3 spoken dialects (canúintí). This gives recognition to both forms of the language.
What confuses me here is that people cannot accept the same thing with regards to English. It's fine to speak in a casual manner in the comfortable setting of a friendly conversation, but there are times when writing really should follow grammatical rules.0 -
Powerhouse wrote: »Can I make opne important point? You have written on numerous occasions here that there is no one recognised governing body on the English language. We know that, and I have never suggested there is. All I have suggested is that there is such a thing as formal standard English. Whether this comes about as a standard that has evolved by general agreement or by dint of a UN resolation is neither here nor there. What this formal standard English does have is many absolute rules.
Your answering of my third point which invites you to point out why this is not an absolute rule makes my argument for me. If you could dismiss this as not an absolute rule in formal English accepted anywhere presumably you would but you can't.
This is an absolute rule - call it a convention or whatever you like after that - which no authority would dispute. There are many of these as I have said. How you think there are none is beyond me.
I think your argument may have drifted. There are generally accepted norms within a version of English, but there isn't an overall governing body for the language--I think we agree on that point.
I don't really know what you mean by formal standard English. In scientific communication, for example, there are standards. For example, in the realm of chemistry, the American Chemical Society (ACS) has a style guide to which authors must adhere if they want to be published in a society journal. However, other international journals have their style guides; and style guides exist for disciplines other than chemistry. There isn't a wide variation in the usage of English in international publications, but there are some small differences from region to region. So while there are styles that collectively could be referred to as formal scientific English, there are even nuances within this set. I am using scientific writing as one example. Other publications (Wall Street Journal, The Economist, US News and World Report and so on) have their own guides.
Your answering of my third point which invites you to point out why this is not an absolute rule makes my argument for me. If you could dismiss this as not an absolute rule in formal English accepted anywhere presumably you would but you can't.
You're providing an example of specious reasoning here! If you're looking for a group of people that constantly uses the pronoun "I" as the object of a verb or preposition and the pronoun "me" as the subject of a verb, look no further than Ireland. Most people in Ireland would not have a problem with the following exchange:
- "Who's there?"
- "Me."
In this exchange "me" is either the implied subject of a verb, or the object of a verb. In fact, it's functioning as the object of a verb that never takes an object! A grammatically correct response would be "I," "I am" or "It is I." Each sounds awkward, but each is correct.
Here's another one.
- "So, I'll just ask you and you alone?"
- "No, ask Frank or I."
This syntax is very common where the pronoun "I" is functioning as the object of a verb--it's not grammatically correct, but it is widely accepted. You'll also hear things like "give it to Frank or I," where the pronoun "I" is incorrectly used as the object of a preposition. It's a syntax that is widely used and understood, but that in formal English would be deemed as ungrammatical. The grammatically correct response would be "No, ask Frank or me," or, in the second example, "give it to Frank or me." Each might sound awkward (or even wrong) to some people, but each is grammatically correct.
I thought you were joking about the use of the personal pronoun, since it's so widely abused!
Finally, in the last paragraph, you're misrepresenting what I wrote, while also providing at least one common grammatical error for good measure.
I conveyed that there is no universal governing body for the English language: that doesn't imply a free for all. Conventions exist within regions and even between or among regions. I didn't suggest that all conventions are unique to a single region and not found elsewhere. You misinterpreted what I wrote and drew an erroneous conclusion from your misreading. 0 -
SoCal90046 wrote: »I think your argument may have drifted. There are generally accepted norms within a version of English, but there isn't an overall governing body for the language--I think we agree on that point.
I don't really know what you mean by formal standard English. In scientific communication, for example, there are standards. For example, in the realm of chemistry, the American Chemical Society (ACS) has a style guide to which authors must adhere if they want to be published in a society journal. However, other international journals have their style guides; and style guides exist for disciplines other than chemistry. There isn't a wide variation in the usage of English in international publications, but there are some small differences from region to region. So while there are styles that collectively could be referred to as formal scientific English, there are even nuances within this set. I am using scientific writing as one example. Other publications (Wall Street Journal, The Economist, US News and World Report and so on) have their own guides.
Your answering of my third point which invites you to point out why this is not an absolute rule makes my argument for me. If you could dismiss this as not an absolute rule in formal English accepted anywhere presumably you would but you can't.
You're providing an example of specious reasoning here! If you're looking for a group of people that constantly uses the pronoun "I" as the object of a verb or preposition and the pronoun "me" as the subject of a verb, look no further than Ireland. Most people in Ireland would not have a problem with the following exchange:
- "Who's there?"
- "Me."
In this exchange "me" is either the implied subject of a verb, or the object of a verb. In fact, it's functioning as the object of a verb that never takes an object! A grammatically correct response would be "I," "I am" or "It is I." Each sounds awkward, but each is correct.
Here's another one.
- "So, I'll just ask you and you alone?"
- "No, ask Frank or I."
This syntax is very common where the pronoun "I" is functioning as the object of a verb--it's not grammatically correct, but it is widely accepted. You'll also hear things like "give it to Frank or I," where the pronoun "I" is incorrectly used as the object of a preposition. It's a syntax that is widely used and understood, but that in formal English would be deemed as ungrammatical. The grammatically correct response would be "No, ask Frank or me," or, in the second example, "give it to Frank or me." Each might sound awkward (or even wrong) to some people, but each is grammatically correct.
I thought you were joking about the use of the personal pronoun, since it's so widely abused!
Finally, in the last paragraph, you're misrepresenting what I wrote, while also providing at least one common grammatical error for good measure. I conveyed that there is no universal governing body for the English language: that doesn't imply a free for all. Conventions exist within regions and even between or among regions. I didn't suggest that all conventions are unique to a single region and not found elsewhere. You misinterpreted what I wrote and drew an erroneous conclusion from your misreading.
As another poster wrote about someone else, you are confusing spoken with written English, and writing styles with grammar. Newspapers and journals have style guides to ensure consistency of presentation. None of them would ever suggest that such guides are academically authoritative. They simply suit their purposes.
The "specious reasoning" you refer to is not there at all. I never said that people don't come up with all manner of strange things in spoken English. What I essentially asked you to do was point out a recognised authority that would say it was okay in formal English to use "I" in the objective case and "me" in the nominative. (You are the one saying there are no absolute rules in formal English)
You claim to have 40 grammar books, yet the best you can do to answer this is conjure up an imaginary informal conversation?! And you accuse me of specious reasoning.
Then again if you admit you don't know what formal standard English is then what's the point in discussing the matter? Though I admire your barefaced double-standard in saying that I made a grammatical error (and a sure sign you are struggling too when the central issue is ditched for an ad hominen dig!) and in your third post on this thread claiming that text-speak is really a series of poor spelling, while at the same time suggesting that there really are no rules.0 -
SoCal90046 wrote: »
while also providing at least one common grammatical error for good measure.
The words were taken out of my mouth on this one. How do you spot a grammatical error if there is no standard by which to judge?0 -
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