Fight Fees! Etc...

flyton5

mad lad wrote: »

150 is the figure given by rte, the times, metro, tv3 and every other media outlet...and they're not known for inflating the number of attendees at protests.

obviously u believe everything u hear/read.....i was there and there was no way there were 150 protesters.....but if the media say there were 150 and thats what u choose to believe who am i to argue?? ignorance is bliss and all that.....

mad lad

flyton5

well thats at least 30 ppl.......i take it all back......i was wrong.....

mad lad

the aim wasn't to prove anything to you. you are not the centre of the world - they're just photos of 'dirty hippies' and 'commies' who should be 'turfed out' of ucd.[sic]

flyton5

mad lad wrote: »

the aim wasn't to prove anything to you. you are not the centre of the world - they're just photos of 'dirty hippies' and 'commies' who should be 'turfed out' of ucd.

did we just become best friends?? i like the cut of ur jib......dirty hippies

33% God

flyton5 wrote: »

there was no way there was 150ppl there.....closer to half that

Way to prove his point.

D.Q

hmmm how cool...

im the first guy on the left in the above second photo...

Im outraged at the unpermitted use of my image...

gubbie

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

Rise, comrade! Shake off the shackles of our elitist capitalist oppressors!

Tbh, you make it sound like they were the typical rent a mob lefty jackasses that protest at anything.

I'm the last person you'd stick in that catagory

Sorry Minister!

All I've been hearing from final years is "No I think they should bring back fee's"... selfish gits (Jeneralisation of many of those who I have talked *not debated on line* to) got their free degree's and now they see fee's coming back in as a good way to get rid of the competition.

flyton5 wrote: »

.....why didnt they split in2 smaller groups and cover every entrance....wait.....i think i know......the press were there....any opportunity for a photo lads....

They did. They split into a few little groups actually.

flyton5 wrote: »

if only michael mcdowell was still in government.....he could hav arrested that shower of communists and thrown them in the PD "work camp".....i say work but lefties dont believe in it.....they want everything for free......and if they dont get it they protest.....badly.....ein reich, ein volk, ein rotweiller!!

MINISTER! He called me a Commie.


Anyway YA student protests are useless

mloc

gubbie wrote: »

Come now, somehow I think a nation compaigning against enormous human rights abuses and genocide is a bit different to a bunch of freeloaders moaning about the re-introduction of fees, an issue most of them seem to have no real understanding of.

Facts first. The introduction of free fees did not result in the huge influx of disadvantaged students into college that most people think. It merely enabled middle class families to spend more as disposable income, money that would have traditionally covered college fees. Lower income families were in any case covered by ever increasing grants. The economic barriers to college entry for those families remained; transport, accomodation, living expenses etc.

Now in a time of huge exchequer deficit, universities running into debt and bloating student numbers the reality is that in order to remain internationally competitive a serious influx of cash into colleges is required. Whatever about government ineffeciency, the reality of the situation is that the ever increasing total taxpayer expenditure on HEA "free fees" is simply insufficient and diverting money from other exchequer sources is not an option. A graduate-repayed loan system, to me, seems the most realistic and fair option to cover the increasing cost of what is currently a decreasing quality education.

mad lad

mloc wrote: »

A graduate-repayed loan system, to me, seems the most realistic and fair option to cover the increasing cost of what is currently a decreasing quality education.

This has left Australia with a debt of €15 billion. What would you do differently?

mloc

mad lad wrote: »

This has left Australia with a debt of €15 billion. What would you do differently?

Actually, that is not true. At the initial peak it was €15 billion. Given the size of the country, its not a huge amount. The vast majority of this has now been cleared, as is the way with loans. The difference is if Australia followed our model they'd STILL be in €15 billion in debt. The difference is they got most of their money back.

Snakes

gubbie wrote: »

Anyway YA student protests are useless

That chap was subsequently carted off by government agents and according to reports was quickly executed, though nothing official about what happened to him was ever released by the Chinese.
I find it highly improbable any students in UCD would be willing to follow his lead and give their life for the 'free' fees protest.
'Bag mans' brand of protest is quite different from a UCD students brand of protest!

F-Stop

Snakes wrote: »

That chap was subsequently carted off by government agents and according to reports was quickly executed, though nothing official about what happened to him was ever released by the Chinese.

Citation needed.

delta_bravo

Snakes wrote: »

That chap was subsequently carted off by government agents and according to reports was quickly executed, though nothing official about what happened to him was ever released by the Chinese.

I can see the headlines now:

'Hugh Brady warns students that they may face mass execution if involved in tomorrows protest'

Snakes

F-Stop wrote: »

Citation needed.

Citation needed? Do you think the Chinese government published a report on what happened to him? The fact is he was apprehended, video footage available on this, by what are widely accepted to have been government agents/secret police. Again, there is no official record of who they were, the Chinese government back then weren't exactly forthcoming to media questions on this.
Sorry if you're one of these types who requires absolute, documented proof before they'll accept something but unfortunately none is available in this particular indivduals case.

imp

mloc wrote: »

Facts first. The introduction of free fees did not result in the huge influx of disadvantaged students into college that most people think. It merely enabled middle class families to spend more as disposable income, money that would have traditionally covered college fees. Lower income families were in any case covered by ever increasing grants. The economic barriers to college entry for those families remained; transport, accomodation, living expenses etc.

Tonight's Prime Time reported that 20% of school leavers used to go on to third level and that this figure has risen to 60% since free tuition was introduced. Whether they're disadvantaged or middle-class school leavers, I'd call that a good result.

Tayto2000

That student protest in China was crushed by the military, are you seriously making a comparison between that and student action in UCD and Ireland? If we had the Chinese model here, those carrying the fees banner would have been met with tear gas and batons as an entree to mass arrests and detentions at the very least. An insult to the dead of Tiananmen.

Also I'd like to add that all the semi-violence at Lenihan's visit was on the student side, ironically. As 1968 said, it makes good news it just annoys me that those using this tactic always insist on painting themselves as the victims in these confrontations. The Indymedia version of events has the Gardai punching protestors in the face...

Tayto2000

imp wrote: »

Tonight's Prime Time reported that 20% of school leavers used to go on to third level and that this figure has risen to 60% since free tuition was introduced. Whether they're disadvantaged or middle-class school leavers, I'd call that a good result.

It's a big improvement, but they were counting from the year 1980, free tuition only came in in 1996. What are the stats for school leavers from '96 onwards?

delta_bravo

Tayto2000 wrote: »

. As 1968 said, it makes good news it just annoys me that those using this tactic always insist on painting themselves as the victims in these confrontations. The Indymedia version of events has the Gardai punching protestors in the face...

Also people on that site reporting in excess of 250 people attending and Lenihan being scared and running away etc. Absolute joke of a site that really shouldnt be taken seriously

F-Stop

Snakes wrote: »

Do you think the Chinese government published a report on what happened to him? The fact is he was apprehended, video footage available on this, by what are widely accepted to have been government agents/secret police.

Great. Can you cite that factual evidence please. I would be interested in it. There is nothing wrong with looking for facts and evidence? I never knew that he was apprehended as a fact, as you state, nor that there was video footage. I would be delighted if this were true (to qualify - I'd be delighted if it something like this happened that there was proof of it). Again, citation needed - you do understand what that means?

mloc

Tayto2000 wrote: »

It's a big improvement, but they were counting from the year 1980, free tuition only came in in 1996. What are the stats for school leavers from '96 onwards?

Indeed. The increase in attendance fits in perfectly with my statement. The boundaries preventing poorer students were not generally fee related but many other financial factors, which the economic climate changes of the past 28 years have in many cases alleviated.

The abolition of fees has little to do with this increase.

AngelofFire

pigeonbutler wrote: »

Who was the clown with Insomnia coffee mug!

"Tax the rich!!, Down with Fees!!!, Leave me with a few euro for the basics in life like my double caramel mocha skinny latte frappacinos*!!!




*May not be a real coffee drink.

John long time no see

the union just isnt the same without ya:D

you'll be along to the march tomorrow? ya know ya want to

Stabshauptmann

mloc wrote: »

Facts first. The introduction of free fees did not result in the huge influx of disadvantaged students into college that most people think. It merely enabled middle class families to spend more as disposable income, money that would have traditionally covered college fees. Lower income families were in any case covered by ever increasing grants. The economic barriers to college entry for those families remained; transport, accomodation, living expenses etc.

Not entirely true. Free fees did lead to a massive influx of disadvantaged students.

"A ‘snapshot’ survey commissioned by the HEA in 2003–4 has provided some indications of progress in achieving equity of access to higher education for these under–represented socio–economic groups."

Tayto2000 wrote: »

It's a big improvement, but they were counting from the year 1980, free tuition only came in in 1996. What are the stats for school leavers from '96 onwards?

the number of people receiving 3rd level education went from 6.5% of the population in 1996 to 12.4% according to the 2006 Census.
In fact the percentage of the entire population that has achieved degree status has almost doubled since the introduction of free fees in 1996.
And this has been across all socio-economic backgrounds

So while some sections of society do avail of 3rd level education more frequently, the effects of free education has been the same for everyone. That is, a corresponding increase on the number of students attending 3rd level from each socio-economic group.

http://www.hea.ie/files/files/file/archive/policy/2005/Access%20Action%20Plan%202005-2007.pdf

In a nutshell, free fees has meant that far more people are going to college, but that the pre-free fees ratios still remain.

The_Minister

Thanks for listening Kaptain.

It should be noted that there was a sustained government effort to increase the number of places in college, allowing more people to go. Before that demand had outstripped supply, so an increase in the number of people going, does not nessacerily mean that that increase was caused by fees.

Tayto2000

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

In a nutshell, free fees has meant that far more people are going to college, but that the pre-free fees ratios still remain.

Best post on the thread so far.

But, I can't agree with it entirely. Free fees are not responsible for far more people going to college. As previous posters have said, a lot of the general increase has to be attributed to an increase in available college places and a general increase in prosperity over the past 15 years. Fees only represent tuition, all the other costs associated remain.

Directly from the referenced report:

"Participation in higher education has grown significantly over the past 40 years but has not been shared equally by all members of our society. People with a disability, socio-economically disadvantaged students, members of the traveller community, ethnic minorities and mature students remain under- represented in higher education."

And

"Students in our higher education institutions continue to be predominantly from the middle and higher income groups."

This is in 2005, 9 years after taxpayer supported fees came in and is a clear illustration that they didn't work in the way they were supposed to.

Stabshauptmann

That report does say the above aright, but it also says that participation in 3rd level by members of those communities has risen, proportionate to the general increase i.e. the old ratio has not been effected by free fees.

Ofcourse it would be quite naive to believe that free fees were the only thing to encourage this growth in higher level education, but I do think it made a significant, positive impact on the face of Irish society

AngelofFire wrote: »

John long time no see

the union just isnt the same without ya:D

you'll be along to the march tomorrow? ya know ya want to

maybe you too should get a job :pac:

passive

Damn hippies... Couldn't get a bus out of town today, missed a tutorial... *grumble grumble*

simonrooneyzaga

So basically Labour Youth owe you 1%... Id give them a quick email if i were you.

Tom65

RTE says 10,000 at today's protest, which is an impressive turnout. The old people managed 15,000 and they don't have anything to do anyway.

simonrooneyzaga

and they could get up from all parts of the country for free ;-)