Fight Fees! Etc...

flyton5

Snakes wrote: »

That chap was subsequently carted off by government agents and according to reports was quickly executed, though nothing official about what happened to him was ever released by the Chinese.
I find it highly improbable any students in UCD would be willing to follow his lead and give their life for the 'free' fees protest.
'Bag mans' brand of protest is quite different from a UCD students brand of protest!

Snakes......did they not run over that lad in the tank??

Tayto2000

The man was videoed climbing up on the tank and talking to the commander. He was subsequently videoed being pulled back into the crowd by other protestors and absorbed. There's no hard evidence of his fate and his identity is still unconfirmed, but is likely he died in the violence and executions that followed. There have however been many rumours that he survived and is living in hiding somewhere.

flyton5

ahhhhhhh right.......very unlikely he's still alive then.......the PRC dont take to kindly to protesters.....

anonymous_joe

There was a great documentary on that guy.

The end of it features him being pulled into the crowd, no-one knows if the guys who pulled him in were protestors, or members of China's KGB (No idea what it's called). I pray it was protestors.

simonrooneyzaga

hes gonzo - the sooner we all realize this the sooner we can get on with our lives.

flyton5

nah i have it on good authority that himself and elvis are holed up in mexico.....here.....does anyone know if the government publish the ministerial expense accounts online???

delta_bravo

I saw bits of the protest on rté. Very good turnout but they said that the organisers didn't invite any representatives from the government to attend whereas I saw FG and Labour TDs up on the podium, have to say that was a bit ridiculous.

The oaps had their minister up on the podium in the other protest, they heckled her but at least she was invited. Surely it wouldve made sense to have the minister for education speaking to the students or at least invited

passive

Nevah! we don't negotiate with FASCIST SCUM!!!!11!!!11eleventyone!!!1!

D.Q

delta_bravo wrote: »

I saw bits of the protest on rté. Very good turnout but they said that the organisers didn't invite any representatives from the government to attend whereas I saw FG and Labour TDs up on the podium, have to say that was a bit ridiculous.

The oaps had their minister up on the podium in the other protest, they heckled her but at least she was invited. Surely it wouldve made sense to have the minister for education speaking to the students or at least invited

hes not in the country is he?

simonrooneyzaga

town is gonna be absolutely jammers tonight - 10,000 students on the matt le tiss!

flyton5

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

town is gonna be absolutely jammers tonight - 10,000 students on the matt le tiss!

9,999.....i cant make it

delta_bravo

DieselQueen wrote: »

hes not in the country is he?

Not sure, but my point is that some representative from the ggovernment should have been invited

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

town is gonna be absolutely jammers tonight - 10,000 students on the matt le tiss!

Did you see the flyers today for the 'Offical Protest Afterparty'? That made me laugh

simonrooneyzaga

delta_bravo wrote: »

Did you see the flyers today for the 'Offical Protest Afterparty'? That made me laugh

hah - thats brilliant, im sure all profits will go straight back into fighting for the cause.

The_Minister

Apparently the Socialist Workers Party tried to hi-jack the protest as per usual, and were twarted.

simonrooneyzaga

The_Minister wrote: »

Apparently the Socialist Workers Party tried to hi-jack the protest as per usual, and were twarted.

:rolleyes: Monty Burns voice: winkers.

flyton5

The_Minister wrote: »

Apparently the Socialist Workers Party tried to hi-jack the protest as per usual, and were twarted.

they were yeah......they had their scarves pulled up over their face and some knick knack was taking pictures......typical

Breezer

I think we made our point. And no violence, which helps.

I was a little surprised to hear no Government representative had been invited, but tbh the Government has had plenty of opportunities to make its feelings known on the issue. This was about sending it a message in response.

The_Minister wrote: »

Apparently the Socialist Workers Party tried to hi-jack the protest as per usual, and were twarted.

It was a little strange to be marching alongside certain groups alright, but at the same time it was great to see solidarity across the political divide. And with the pensioners

FionnMatthew

Has this been suggested already?

Why don't we endorse bringing back fees, but only on the following conditions:

1. First year is as it is now.
2. Second year fees free if you get a 2.1 or higher.

Think of the advantages of this proposal:

• It doesn't discriminate on the basis of socio-economic background, but on the basis of merit.
  
• It represents a net increase in the amount of fees taken in by the college, without being unduly unfair.
  
• It encourages people to work harder, and take their college work more seriously than they otherwise might have.
  
• It militates against the coaster method of graduating.
  
• It puts a stop to grade inflation - in fact, it probably makes it harder to get a higher grade - which makes Irish university grades actually mean something.
  
• Over time, it encourages the most capable and hardworking students to excel, and probably raises the profile of UCD.
  
• It selects, within society, for aptitude and effort, and makes the cost of continuing without either of those costly, which it should be. It makes sure that the people who should really be in college find no obstacle in monetary circumstances to that aim, but places obstacles before those who would wish to take advantage of the university for their own personal ends.

I would totally endorse this form of fees-return.

Stabshauptmann

very interesting idea

Het-Field

FionnMatthew wrote: »

Has this been suggested already?

Why don't we endorse bringing back fees, but only on the following conditions:

1. First year is as it is now.
2. Second year fees free if you get a 2.1 or higher.

Think of the advantages of this proposal:

• It doesn't discriminate on the basis of socio-economic background, but on the basis of merit.
  
• It represents a net increase in the amount of fees taken in by the college, without being unduly unfair.
  
• It encourages people to work harder, and take their college work more seriously than they otherwise might have.
  
• It militates against the coaster method of graduating.
  
• It puts a stop to grade inflation - in fact, it probably makes it harder to get a higher grade - which makes Irish university grades actually mean something.
  
• Over time, it encourages the most capable and hardworking students to excel, and probably raises the profile of UCD.
  
• It selects, within society, for aptitude and effort, and makes the cost of continuing without either of those costly, which it should be. It makes sure that the people who should really be in college find no obstacle in monetary circumstances to that aim, but places obstacles before those who would wish to take advantage of the university for their own personal ends.

I would totally endorse this form of fees-return.

I think that is both an interesting and fair point. However, I fear that the new level of the registration fee would potentially render it unviable. 1,500 Euros is effectively a tuition fee. In 2002 (One year before I came to UCD) the reg fee was 365 Euro. We have see a rise of over 1,000 Euro in six years. In the past I was reticent to complain about this capitation. Unfortunatly, at a level like this, students no longer benefit from "Free Fees"

To pay this fee many students will have to find work, which will diminish their study time, and also act to the detriment of their health. Thus, the system proposed by FioonMatthew would be a morally acceptable fees system, is not 100% viable. That is, unless all students live at home and dont have to take part time jobs to pay the reg fee

The_Minister

That is a fascinating idea.

Stabshauptmann

I think its important to recognise that college is (and always has been, long before free fees or even the founding of the Irish state) about more than just attending lectures, slaving in the library and achieving good grades.

There are tacit skills you acquire, your faculty of reasoning is improved, your social skills (interaction, communication, confidence) are developed, you broaden your horizons and your understanding of the world etc.

These valuable products of university education would be diminished if not lost imo under your proposed system FionnMathew. As it is, S&M has seen a decrease in student society and sport club activity.

I had a good long think about it, but I dont think I could support a system that put so much pressure on first year students, many of whom are adjusting to a completely alien environment.

rainbow kirby

Het-Field wrote: »

I think that is both an interesting and fair point. However, I fear that the new level of the registration fee would potentially render it unviable. 1,500 Euros is effectively a tuition fee. In 2002 (One year before I came to UCD) the reg fee was 365 Euro. We have see a rise of over 1,000 Euro in six years. In the past I was reticent to complain about this capitation. Unfortunatly, at a level like this, students no longer benefit from "Free Fees"

€365 was the registration fee in 2001, it was just under €700 in 2002 when I started in UCD.

</pedantic>

Tayto2000

Very interesting idea.

1st year as it is now, so no undue pressure for first years who are free to indulge in the usual fresher shenanigans

I'd vote for that. It's similar to some scholarships in the US which have minimum grade standards attached.

Het-Field

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

I think its important to recognise that college is (and always has been, long before free fees or even the founding of the Irish state) about more than just attending lectures, slaving in the library and achieving good grades.

There are tacit skills you acquire, your faculty of reasoning is improved, your social skills (interaction, communication, confidence) are developed, you broaden your horizons and your understanding of the world etc.

These valuable products of university education would be diminished if not lost imo under your proposed system FionnMathew. As it is, S&M has seen a decrease in student society and sport club activity.

I had a good long think about it, but I dont think I could support a system that put so much pressure on first year students, many of whom are adjusting to a completely alien environment.

In fairness, the taxpayer should not be funding people to coast through degrees at whatever level. Too many in my day pissed around for two years, before pulling up their socks at the last second. Hence, they have learnt litttle or nothing, and are simply returning to the Leaving Certificate level of learning off by heart.

I think you are also putting too much weight on involvement is Student Societies and Sports Clubs (particularly when I know that in the vast majority of sports clubs have only seen a negligable decline in membership).

A small percentage of students are heavily involved in a society, with many people sitting on large committees, and engaging at a minimal level. Most small societies will have a keen membership, but it will be small. The largest meeting of the Young PDs I ever chaired was a 14 man (should have been fifteen...shooting a glance at The Minister) meeting. That was when the party was a viable entity. Most other political meetings will house similar numbers, with the exceptions of the KBC and YFG, who equally only have a fraction of their true membership appear. This would also be a common feature of internal department societies. The only societies which see huge numbers appear at meetings are LawSoc and L&H, however, after Christmas many debates and talks are given to virtually empty lecture rooms. Equally SU Council often became inquorate after Christmas. This was the case before modularisation and semesterisation was introduced.

I feel that the new system (of which I was never a part) has gone a long way to killling the buzz around campus. Some would say that the last great year in UCD was 2004-2005. However, to consider the needs of the few society hacks (who should be able to find time around their society events to engage in their primary responsibility of study),ahead of the average taxpayer would be very irresponsible.

Stabshauptmann

I know that Im a far more valuable asset to my company and a more productive member of society from what I learnt outside of the classroom...

Het-Field

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

I know that Im a far more valuable asset to my company and a more productive member of society from what I learnt outside of the classroom...

True, but you ignored my substantive point i.e. that only a fraction of people have ever engaged in such activities. Is it enough to put a burden for education on the taxpayer, so this fraction can engage in a society or the Union etc ?

asdasd

they [SWP] had their scarves pulled up over their face

thats because they are very scary these middle class Marxists. And we didnt want to scare the pensioners.

Stabshauptmann

Only a fraction of people will go to university, only a fraction will use public transport, but still we make the option available.

But thats not my main point; I believe that the quality of education is actually diminished the more the course is tailored to exam performance. Obviously you need exams and results are very important, but grind schools tend to turn out idiots in my experience. In my class in commerce there was a group who would consistently kick up a fuss when asked to think for themselves and had an exam overturned because the questions werent exactly on the course.

Id love a system that removed those who just coast through, but the point of 3rd level is learning and betterment, not narrow exam centric ability to quote a text book without understanding it.

mloc

The more I read here and otherwise, a total overhaul of the education system appears needed.

A few thoughts, ideas maybe.

1) Remove the leaving cert points system as the sole entry requirement to most courses.

Replace it with a system more in line with that of UCAS, where a detailed application process (personal statements etc), interviews, volunteer work and some weight given to the leaving cert. This would make people think more about their choices and provide more informed, balanced and interested students. It would certainly go some way to remove "pick blind and cram" CAO applicants.

2) Reintroduce fees along the lines of the OZ system.

I know this a controversial one, but given the 17% decrease per student spending on 3rd level education in the last few years, more money is needed and quick.

3) Expand the grant system

To enable socially disadvantaged students greater entry to the 3rd level system. Means tested, of course.

4) Provide greater access and information programs to those in socially disadvantaged areas/areas where 3rd level attendance is not traditional

This will break the greatest access barrier to those from socially disadvantaged areas.

5) Increase college standards

Improve monitoring of undergraduate courses and remove the student numbers game element. Quality over quantity. Seriously penalise repeats and cap results. Irish degrees should be viewed as those of the highest quality, based on academic merit and standards and not on marketing and other false metrics.

6) Remove the numbers game

The current idea of increasing 3rd level attendance to 75% needs to be looked at cautiously instead of seen as a positive goal. Increases should never come at the cost of reducing standards or watering down courses, an enormous problem in UCD at the moment. Increased numbers should be balanced by more places in technical colleges and expanding 3rd level options as opposed to damaging the standards of those options already in place.