Government parties falling apart!

mike65

Okay a small exaggeration but its all happening, a FFer Joe Behan has resigned from the party Jim McDaid is waivering and talk of two Greens possibly following.

Mike

snubbleste

I heard Joe Behan on the radio and he said it was not just about the medical cards issue in the budget but FF moving away from its ethos in the last few years.

I hope he remains independent and does not revert to vote with FF in the Dáil

jmayo

mike65 wrote: »

Okay a small exaggeration but its all happening, a FFer Joe Behan has resigned from the party Jim McDaid is waivering and talk of two Greens possibly following.

Mike

Why does the term "Rats and sinking ships" come to mind.
How come he didn't have this crisis of believe back in 2006 or 2007 !
FF should remain in power, they should not be left off the hook by slinging off now that they left us in the sh***.
They were around for the good times and were great at self congratulating themselves for them. Now of course they have nothing to do with anything.
Now lets see what they are made of and for once they should be around to clean up the mess they and their buddies helped create.

Lil' Smiler

snubbleste wrote: »

I heard Joe Behan on the radio and he said it was not just about the medical cards issue in the budget but FF moving away from its ethos in the last few years.

I hope he remains independent and does not revert to vote with FF in the Dáil

True. I agree, hes a good man to be honest. I hope he stays Independent.

podge79

he'll probably become one of these independent FF'ers you see every so often and vote accordingly. But I admire his stand - others will just shrug shoulders and murmur "what can I do"

Lil' Smiler

Yeah I hope others follow him.
He's my local TD aswell as Dick(head) Roche. Joe has tried his best for our area and fair play to him for doing this but I don't know how much it'd convince or encourage others to follow.

Apparently a former Minister for FF also said to the TV3 politics lady Ursula, that it "took 80 years to build Fianna Fail but maybe only 1 budget to take it back down".. I think she said budget anyway

sovtek

jmayo wrote: »

Now of course they have nothing to do with anything.
Now lets see what they are made of and for once they should be around to clean up the mess they and their buddies helped create.

Maybe you're right but from what I can see they will just make things worse. Rather lets get people in that can do the job right and then sort out who needs to be dragged out into the street.

dresden8

Has this ever happened before in FF?

I see Mary Coughlan got a mention, in a bad way.

Stephen

There's a huge thread about this over on politics.ie at the moment, currently at 15 pages. The usual FF mouthpieces are being mysteriously quiet over there this evening.

http://www.politics.ie/fianna-fail/36256-ff-td-quits-party-over-medical-card-issue.html

is_that_so

If they had a very small majority we might have seen a vote of no confidence within the next week but they have more than enough to cope with a few "bleeding heart" resignations or defections. Age Action will be outside the Dail next week and that'll give it more fuel.

The Greens will carry on with their "see no evil" approach until they have to be beaten from Govt. and even Finian and the Independents can be counted on for a while longer, until their own pet projects are at risk of being canned or reduced.

What I think is likely to happen is a complete pasting at local and EU elections next year for the Greens and FF. Cowen may not survive that. With worsening finances we can also expect them to come up with a few more imaginative measures that will upset the faithful and the rest of us. I also reckon that well have a new Minister for Finance by the time the next budget arrives. Whatever talents Lenihan has, he doesn't seem to grasp that serious times need serious people.

Think the pressure will be on, this time next year. If they can get into 2010 without having to call an election they may survive but that's a big "if" given how completely clueless and spineless they are showing themselves to be.

Mr.Micro

Nah its just a bit of posturing IMO. Make a few noises and hope the electorate will forget by the next election. The Greens are drunk with power and nothing will make them give it up. They will make a few noises squeak squeak. First time in years poor old FF have to do the dirty to the public as all the surplus has been squandered and who do they pick on the old people. An own goal that will come back to haunt them I will bet. Clueless.

JJJJNR

I have to say that took some amount balls to do that. He's just shown he IS made of something and not afraid to make a stand.

Well done.

Lil' Smiler

Resignation letter....



http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1017/behanj.html

A Thaoisigh,


It is with regret that I tender my resignation as a member of the Fianna Fáil Party today.

I have served the public as a Fianna Fáil public representative continuously since 1985 and I considered it a great honour to be selected as a Fianna Fáil Dáil candidate in 2006 and elected as a Fianna Fáil T.D. in 2007.

Since my election as a T.D., I have supported the party in every Dáil vote and voted for the various financial resolutions arising from this week's Budget. My vote today in support of the Bank Guarantee Scheme will be my final vote as a Fianna Fáil T.D.

I am appalled at the Government's decision to end the principle of universality of medical card provision for people over 70 yrs of age. I am equally appalled at indications from Government Ministers that the principle of universality of provision of other payments eg, Child Benefit is also under threat.

I regret very much that members of the Parliamentary Party were not consulted in any way in relation to this year's Budget. It is clear that the views of backbench T.D.'s are not taken seriously regarding this and other issues.

I understand the need for party discipline and I have supported the Government line on a number of issues pertaining to my constituency, against my better judgement. They include the Labour Party Private Members Motion on the need for an independent investigation into the tragic deaths of two firemen from Bray and the need for a full time fire service in Nth.Wicklow and the Fine Gael Private Members Motion regarding the provision of A.B.A. Schools for children with autism. I have yesterday defended the indefensible refusal yet again by the Government to fund the construction of the Rathnew to Arklow section of the N 11 which has seen many tragic and fatal accidents in recent years.

I have now regrettably come to the conclusion that enough is enough. I see a number of proposals arising from this week's Budget and Departmental Spending Programmes which will result in pain and distress being inflicted on the most elderly in our society and in the case of increased pupil teacher ratios in our schools - a worsening of the standard of education our pupils will receive. Put simply, the youngest and the oldest in our society are being asked to pay the price for the present financial and budgetary situation.

This is unacceptable to me but I sincerely believe it is also unacceptable to the vast majority of members and public representatives in Fianna Fáil. It is clear to me that you as Taoiseach and your Cabinet colleagues made choices in the Budget which have resulted in deep concern and upset throughout the nation. Regrettably, many fine Fianna Fáil public representatives, locally and nationally, will be asked to pay the electoral price for your choices.

In coming to my decision, I was particularly conscious of the attempt by the Tánaiste yesterday to warn Parliamentary Party members not to criticise publicly Budget measures in your absence as it would be judged as "disrespectful" to you. I found that warning to be insulting in the extreme. However, mindful of the fact that you are travelling to China next week I wanted to ensure you received this letter today.

I intend to adopt an independent stance on each and every issue which comes before the Dáil from now on. I confirm to you today that I will oppose with every fibre of my being the Government decision to withdraw medical cards from people over 70 yrs. I will also oppose the proposal by the Department of Education to increase class sizes. Regarding all other issues - where I believe the public interest is being served, I will support the Government, where I believe the public interest is not being served, I will oppose.

On a personal level I have enormous respect for your integrity, ability and patriotism. I know you have a heavy burden on your shoulders and my action today does not lighten that burden. But I believe that the first duty of any person is to be true to themselves and hence my decision today.

I wish you well.

Mise le meas,

Joe Behan T.D.

irish_bob

let me ask a question , do people want across the board (regardless of wealth status ) access to a medical card for the over seventies , surely it is immoral let alone a huge waste of tax payers money to be funding a former judge or hospital consultants monthly check up with his or her GP

help me out here , are you asking for the income threshold to be raised or the status quo to remain in place , all i hear is hysteria

jhegarty

irish_bob wrote: »

let me ask a question , do people want across the board (regardless of wealth status ) access to a medical card for the over seventies , surely it is immoral let alone a huge waste of tax payers money to be funding a former judge or hospital consultants monthly check up with his or her GP

help me out here , are you asking for the income threshold to be raised or the status quo to remain in place , all i hear is hysteria

if the limit cutting off people like that I don't think there would be uproar , but they are cutting off people who worked all their lives, paid high taxes and put away a very small pension....


Well done Joe, good to see a politician with a backbone...

Lil' Smiler

irish_bob wrote: »

let me ask a question , do people want across the board (regardless of wealth status ) access to a medical card for the over seventies , surely it is immoral let alone a huge waste of tax payers money to be funding a former judge or hospital consultants monthly check up with his or her GP

help me out here , are you asking for the income threshold to be raised or the status quo to remain in place , all i hear is hysteria

Well, I know for my family, that the case is that both my mums mother and father are in a nursing home with bad alzheimers and vascular dimensia respectively. They think they have enough money to pay for nursing home fees etc for both of them for maybe the next 3 years. They're lucky that they kept up their parents VHI whereas alot of people once they go into nursing homes, their families end it and rely on the free care from the medical card.
My Nana suffers from MRSA in her eyes and is on constant anti biotics (expensive) and has constant visits from the dr, chiropodist and eye specialist...so what happens when they money runs out and they have no medical card..

I think it is fair for the over 70's to be entitled to a medical card. I think Joe Behan is right in what he is said that the budget has been unfortunate for the young and the elderly.

I don't like that the elderly are going to be means tested, my Grandad worked all of his life, would never have abused the system at all or anything like that, was a hero of a man to me and now when he needs the help, it's being taken away from him.

I don't know where i stand on the issue of the wealth status of people, I always find this difficult as I have a real itch about people abusing the system (getting pregnant to get a house, lying to get college fees etc). I do see the whole point of "why should we pay for the wealthy's health care when they can pay for themselves"..but again going back to Joe Behan's opinion that the state is meant to look after the elderly etc I agree with that..

Keano

irish bob your point has some merit as in why should wealthy over 70's get one but they have given service to this country and have obviously worked hard to be in a wealthy position so they should be rewarded.

I had never heard of Joe Behan before today but I admire his stance and his honesty of supporting his party even when he wanted to vote no.

Crash

And yet that same point when trotted out in opposition to the idea of higher taxes for the wealthy is derided and ignored. Simple fact, like pretty much everything in this country, is that an effective means testing is fair. I think its wrong to dismiss the idea of removing universal social welfare projects as ageist, or opposing the young or the old. If someone has a sufficient pension and other income to be able to support themselves medically, then they should. There is bloody murder on here whenever a story comes up about someone above certain pay thresholds taking advantages of tax breaks etc., and yet the moment said person turns 70 we're supposed to throw the righteous indignation out on its ear?

Now, I do stress, I state an effective means tested system. I would like to see figures as to the potential number of people disenfranchised, potential cost etc. before making any overall decision as to whether I support this or not, but to simply cry for universal coverage is lunacy.

is_that_so

It's not the introduction/abolition per se as how it has been handled. Like all measures of this kind they should be available to those who need them. From no information to two changes in three days does not suggest any type of joined-up thinking or planning in addressing it.

All it has done is generate confusion, a lot of heat and potentially a lot of trouble for this government.

Incidentally loss of medical card will also expose over 70's to the Health levy of 2%. Combine that with the across the board income levy irrespective of income then it comes across as cruel and no more than bean counting. The cost of the system is also due to the higher fees charged by doctors to be part of the scheme.

podge79

the problem is that only up until very recently people paid crippling levels of tax in this country - its only in the last 15-20 years that tax levels have actually gone down to the low levels we pay now in income tax. add in the interest rates people were paying on mortgages back in the days of 17-18% and that people wouldnt have had alot to put away into a private pension and that in the past people were told dont worry state will take care of you and you can see why alot of people actual rely on the state for so many benefits. for flip sake if cuba can provide quality healthcare for its entire population I cant see why this country cant do the same for its citizens whatever age they are or whatever status they have. but what do we do squander it on a leaky tunnel under dublin bay and a tram system that doesnt link up and a proposed underground metro dublin flipping airport.

jmayo

All of this problem is becuase FF decided in 2001 that they would get votes by allowing EVERYBODY over 70 have a free medical card.
Then it turns out that for some reason it costs a lot more to run those cards than normal ones and it is only now that they are bothering to ask the IMO about this ?

There is no way in hell that the likes of Charlie Haughey, Gay Byrne or Michael Smurfit or that dodgy judge in Kerry should ever have a free medical card.
Saying they worked hard all their life is boll**. So did a lot of people and they didn't get paid half as much and in the case of a lot of people it wasn't taxpayers money.

But then the government comes along in Budget 2008 and decides they will remove this and bring in a means test that is way too dragconian.
Now they hmm and haw and are upping the means test limits and finally asking IMO why is costs so much more to run :rolleyes:

Meanwhile nobody seems to be focussing on the fact government has set up subprime business to bailout developers, sorry I mean fact governmnet are offering mortgages to FTB buyers who can't get a loan from a financial institution in order for them to buy newly built properties :rolleyes:

Then becuase a TD resigns from the party we have people lauding him as some sort of saint.
All right he has some principles but I bet we will find he was also defending bertie baffler and the schenanigans going on over the last few years even if he wasn't an actual TD an only a councillor.
Did he just grow a backbone over the last few days.
He seems to find the raising of class sizes was wrong.
Obviously he had no problems with the way schools were being bankrupted with the likes of water charges or kids were being taught in leaky rat invested prefabs up till now :rolleyes:

Edit: whoever compared him to that DICK Roche did do Behan a great diservice

DublinWriter

jmayo wrote: »

All of this problem is becuase FF Charlie McCreevy decided in 2001 that they would get votes by allowing EVERYBODY over 70 have a free medical card.

Fixed it for you.

jmayo wrote: »

There is no way in hell that the likes of Charlie Haughey, Gay Byrne or Michael Smurfit or that dodgy judge in Kerry should ever have a free medical card.

Yeah - and I can see them queuing up in the likes of Beaumont A&E for attention! You really think that taking away the medical card from this class of person will make up €100m?

jmayo wrote: »

Saying they worked hard all their life is boll**. So did a lot of people and they didn't get paid half as much and in the case of a lot of people it wasn't taxpayers money.

So you're saying we should punish the successful in an era when they were taxed 80%? Obviously in Communist Ireland, Heath System is healed by you!

Feck that, let them run the banks if they could harvest that kind of nest-egg! They must be financial geniuses.

jmayo

podge79 wrote: »

the problem is that only up until very recently people paid crippling levels of tax in this country - its only in the last 15-20 years that tax levels have actually gone down to the low levels we pay now in income tax. add in the interest rates people were paying on mortgages back in the days of 17-18% and that people wouldnt have had alot to put away into a private pension and that in the past people were told dont worry state will take care of you and you can see why alot of people actual rely on the state for so many benefits. for flip sake if cuba can provide quality healthcare for its entire population I cant see why this country cant do the same for its citizens whatever age they are or whatever status they have. but what do we do squander it on a leaky tunnel under dublin bay and a tram system that doesnt link up and a proposed underground metro dublin flipping airport.

I think some of the high tax excuses were used already when people were caught with offshore bank accounts and non resident bank accounts :rolleyes:
People were paying high interest rates to banks not to the government coffers, it was not for the good of the country. But that is a whole different argument.

carlovian

just saw cowan on the news when he threw in the issue of the extraordinarily high rates they're paying the doctors for the over-70s medical cards. Like who agreed these rates?

jhegarty

Going Forward wrote: »

Now, I do stress, I state an effective means tested system. I would like to see figures as to the potential number of people disenfranchised, potential cost etc. before making any overall decision as to whether I support this or not, but to simply cry for universal coverage is lunacy.

The figure they have picked is anyone living on more than 12495 euro a year

podge79

jmayo wrote: »

I think some of the high tax excuses were used already when people were caught with offshore bank accounts and non resident bank accounts :rolleyes:
People were paying high interest rates to banks not to the government coffers, it was not for the good of the country. But that is a whole different argument.

alot of ordinary people who are now pensioners paid the high taxes and didnt have off shore accounts. I know people were paying the high interest rates to the banks.. what I was trying to say was as a result of all these different outgoings people who are now pensioners had little money to be putting away for retirement

jmayo

You must be FF if you are starting to be selctive in blaming Charlie McGrevey,
Lenihan is trying to blame the current medical card clawback mess on Mary Harney and you are blaming the orginal handout on Charlie McGrevey.
And I thougth they were always cabinet decisions, or at least they were when they were good decisions :rolleyes:

DublinWriter wrote: »

So you're saying we should punish the successful in an era when they were taxed 80%? Obviously in Communist Ireland, Heath System is healed by you!

Feck that, let them run the banks if they could harvest that kind of nest-egg! They must be financial geniuses.

So are you saying the rich should not pay tax because they work hard for their money ? That sounds very US republican and we see where there health care is.
What was the lowest rate of tax during that period ?

These were the excuses offered why people siphoned money off into non resident accounts, or offshore.
Taxes were too high and why should we pay those rates.
Except some people, primarily the PAYE sector, didn't have that chance or choice and they had to carry the can for your hardworking non paying types.

Now these Denis Foleys etc should have access to free medical card just like the guy down the road that did work hard for his measly pension and never had enough money to invest in an ansdbacher account :rolleyes:

jmayo

podge79 wrote: »

alot of ordinary people who are now pensioners paid the high taxes and didnt have off shore accounts. I know people were paying the high interest rates to the banks.. what I was trying to say was as a result of all these different outgoings people who are now pensioners had little money to be putting away for retirement

Fair enough some people are not well off and that is why there should be a fair means test and not the one they have specified.
But to say that everyone is entitled to a free medical card was wrong ever since it was introduced in 2001.
Some guy over in afterhours said his dad who gets 750 a week is worried about losing his and he has wife needing nursing home care costing 1200 a week.
Personally I think they should not be linked as the nrusing home care is another issue that should be looked at becuase it is a disgrace.
But someone on pension of that amount is earning more than person on average industrial wage and they can't get a card.

Hotblack Desiato

mike65 wrote: »

Jim McDaid is waivering

Should've been expelled over the drink-driving thing, tbh.

dresden8

ninja900 wrote: »

Should've been expelled over the drink-driving thing, tbh.

You have to remember though that a lot of bogger TD's were calling it disgraceful the 19 year old boggers weren't allowed drive home drunk at 2 in the morning and wanted an exemption from the laws.

Sure, they'd lose a small percentage killed, but the pubs had to be kept going.

jmayo

dresden8 wrote: »

You have to remember though that a lot of bogger TD's were calling it disgraceful the 19 year old boggers weren't allowed drive home drunk at 2 in the morning and wanted an exemption from the laws.

Sure, they'd lose a small percentage killed, but the pubs had to be kept going.

Dresden if you going to show your disdain for anybody that lives outside your cosmopolitan area as in referring to us all as boggers at least have the coutresy to get the story right.
Some TDs, funny enough including those with publican interests, want the drink drive laws lenient on not the young but rather the OLD, since the pub was their only social environment.
They would prefer to see 75 year old guy crawling home with 5 pints on him than 19 year flying home with 15 pints.
Personally i think both are dangerous but a few TDS didn't think so
Sure hadn't Jimmy down the road had been driving home like that for well on 40 years now.
Oh and just to add to your story a certain green wanted lenient driving tests for old people since they only used the car to get to shops and church
Besides they didn't drive fast i.e. anywhere near the speed limit or dangerously :rolleyes: