Could Budget 2009 bring down the Government?

Gael23

It could bring them down but they would win a vote of no confidence so its unlikely to happen. They're out at the next election though

DublinWriter

Marianne Finucane spit-roasting Harney on her radio show right now.

beggars_bush

the problem is that it should not have been introduced for EVERYONE over 70 at the time, but done on a means test.

About 6-7% of those on medical cards were high earners and don't need them.

the majority of the others worked their years for the state, paid their taxes and deserve to have the medical card

the medical card keeps elderly people out of hospital. and should be good value (except for the ridiculous fees the doctors are getting for admining the scheme)

BOHSBOHS

yes it was brought in as vote buying measure pre election year....
the cost of providing medical cards for EVERYONE over 70 has WAY exceeded all cost expectations ....and with an ageing population the cost is only set to skyrocket ...its UNSUSTAINABLE
the problem is people paint a picture of poor old Nellie living alone fearing she will lose her entitlement to medical care as a TYPICAL CASE (she probably wont)
when in reality a lot of over 70s are ridiculously wealthy ...
probably the richest demographic group in ireland today

It should be means tested but perhaps with looser income limits

Orion

spadder wrote: »

The greens are really been shown up as the spineless, media whores that they are. I’d say they have people watching the posts to see “which way the wind is blowing” before they decide to realize that rescinding medical cards is a bad idea.

Completely. I was a Green voter until the last election. I mailed the party HQ requesting that they state publicly that they wouldn't get into bed with FF and got a letter from Sargant saying that they're keeping their options open. So I didn't vote for them - and won't again based on what I've seen. In today's Times they're quoted as saying that this "isn't a resignation matter". Bloody cowards. In years past the GP had principles - now it's simply to be in Government at all costs.

As for the OP - potentially it could. FG have tabled a motion for the medical cards issue to be reversed. If that passes it's the equivalent of a no-confidence vote in the Government. With 3 Cork FF TDs against the medicals cards decision along with some others, 2 Independants (Lowry and McGrath), and potentially the Greens (unless they cave again which is very possible) then it could pass.

After that there will be the backlash against the education cuts. For 10 years they've promised to reduce class sizes and they've now increased them which has a double impact - worse education circumstances for children and teachers likely to lose jobs. They've cut substitution cover for uncertified leave which could result in children being sent home. Some muppet stated that the principals could cover these classes - but in single stream primary schools (1 of each class) with less than 173 (I think) pupils then the principal is a teaching principal so can't cover other classes.

All in all this budget is a disaster for FF and their government partners and I can certainly see a lot of measures being reversed in it.

It'll be an interesting week.

Gael23

Most pensioners need their savings to simply survive. How are they supposed to pay €50 to see a doctor and €90 for prescriptions. The pension dosn't go very far anymore

irish_bob

BOHSBOHS wrote: »

yes it was brought in as vote buying measure pre election year....
the cost of providing medical cards for EVERYONE over 70 has WAY exceeded all cost expectations ....and with an ageing population the cost is only set to skyrocket ...its UNSUSTAINABLE
the problem is people paint a picture of poor old Nellie living alone fearing she will lose her entitlement to medical care as a TYPICAL CASE (she probably wont)
when in reality a lot of over 70s are ridiculously wealthy ...
probably the richest demographic group in ireland today

It should be means tested but perhaps with looser income limits

expect to become very unpopular with you views on this issue , the elderly are sacred cows not only politically but on boards also , your right , the country cant afford the continuation of this immoral scheme , in fact it is taking money away from struggling familys who need the money to put food on the table , people with debts unlike the elderly who are in nearly all cases debt free , i suspect most of the protestations this past week ( opposition aside who are simply making political hay and they are right ) come from the children of elderly well off people who are worried about some of mum and dads inherritance going to a gp instead of them , being a nation as greedy as this one , you always have people willing to sob when they think they have to put thier hands in thier pocket , our grubbiness will hurt us all in the longrun , the national interest me arse

jmayo

Darragh29 wrote: »

I've never once voted for FG but if Richard bruton was leader, I'd give them a vote.

I have reservations about a party that think Enda Kenny is Taoiseach material. This worries me with FG. Enda Kenny has done a lot of good for the party but he is missing the X factor that is required to become Taoiseach and this should be clear to them by now. So too is Biffo, but he was more or less forced on the party as a leader.

FFS it is not some pop idol competition.
The X factor ? WTF it is not a reality tv show :rolleyes:
Maybe you should go back to watching TV 3.
You may think he is boring, wooden or whatever, but does that matter if he makes the right decisions, the hard decisions that puts the country and it's people first rather than his buddies. Does it matter if he puts the right people in positions of power.
Richard Bruton I reckon would make a good minister of finance.
It may involve making some unpopular decisions, e.g taking on public service unions but that is what is needed, not someone that looks good to you on telly and someone that you would want to take for a pint down the local :rolleyes:
You are not voting for a mate, you are voting for someone to do a job.
He took over FG at time when they were at a real low.
He managed to turn them around but of course he was no bertie.
Yeah the great one that has now left us in this mess.

Gael23

Irish bob is right that they are debt free but that doesnt mean their disposable income is any higher

thesis86

DublinWriter wrote: »

Marianne Finucane spit-roasting Harney on her radio show right now.

Thanks for the mental imagery

Although I think this move is the kind of thing that could bring down a Government, I don't think it will though.

is_that_so

irish_bob wrote: »

expect to become very unpopular with you views on this issue , the elderly are sacred cows not only politically but on boards also , your right , the country cant afford the continuation of this immoral scheme , in fact it is taking money away from struggling familys who need the money to put food on the table , people with debts unlike the elderly who are in nearly all cases debt free , i suspect most of the protestations this past week ( opposition aside who are simply making political hay and they are right ) come from the children of elderly well off people who are worried about some of mum and dads inherritance going to a gp instead of them , being a nation as greedy as this one , you always have people willing to sob when they think they have to put thier hands in thier pocket , our grubbiness will hurt us all in the longrun , the national interest me arse

Some punctuation might not go amiss, like say a full stop or two. Makes what you might have to say even harder to make sense of.

You appear to have a particular problem with the whole issue and as has been noted elsewhere a somewhat disturbing view of who and what the elderly are about. Oddly enough there is no evidence of any such self-righteous posts on the evils of the over 70s card before changes were announced as part of the budget. Also oddly enough there is an element of deja vu in your comments. Seems like they have appeared in quite a number of other threads to date.

It's not a question of popularity, others have questions about it but very few have seen fit to put forth clearly vitriolic rants and completely unfounded generalisations, as an excuse for cogent commentary.

podge79

irish_bob wrote: »

expect to become very unpopular with you views on this issue , the elderly are sacred cows not only politically but on boards also , your right , the country cant afford the continuation of this immoral scheme , in fact it is taking money away from struggling familys who need the money to put food on the table , people with debts unlike the elderly who are in nearly all cases debt free , i suspect most of the protestations this past week ( opposition aside who are simply making political hay and they are right ) come from the children of elderly well off people who are worried about some of mum and dads inherritance going to a gp instead of them , being a nation as greedy as this one , you always have people willing to sob when they think they have to put thier hands in thier pocket , our grubbiness will hurt us all in the longrun , the national interest me arse

reason why you hate pensioners and their beneits so much because its part of your atxes?

podge79

podge79 wrote: »

reason why you hate pensioners and their beneits so much because its part of your atxes?

I of course meant taxes....

KhanTheMan

I think FF have broken the camels back already.

If FF touch the top rate of tax relief on pension payments they are GONE. People breaking their asses to put money away for their pension will not stand for it.

First we have an attack on the Old and next it will be an attack on the people thinking about when they will be old. Political suicide.

All that there needs to happen for this govt to be voted out at the next election now is for a viable alternative to emerge. FG must get somebody better than Kenny and get some coherant policies together. So many people i know vote FF last time because they were more scared of the alternatives than they were of voting FF back.

Next time FG have to get their act together. People will never believe a word FF say before elections anymore either.

I dont think the Greens have stepped up to the mark either.

Here's what should have happened.


New tax rate of 45% on anyone earning over 100K.

Keep the medical cards for over 70 as it is now but double the income limit. (The income limit they propose now is just evil)

Have a similar income limit for childrens allowance etc. (in fact NO state handouts at all to those that have a good income.)

Cut the wages of those in the govt by 25% (on top of the 10% already). Then we'll see who really wants to be there for the country.

Put car tax on to the price of petrol. The more you use (equates to carbon too), the more you pay.

Pull Brian Cowen out from underneath the bush he's been hiding under all week and spit roast him.

Banish Brian Lenihan to Antarctica or somewhere equally distant.

Villain

I said the last election was the election that either FF or FG wouldn't want to win, it was obvious the bubble was going to burst and whoever won the election was going to be left with a mess the problem with FF is they have been in Government for so long they will be seen to have created the mess.

A general election in the morning would be the be the worst possible thing for this state, we need to unite as a nation and look to get through the next 3 years. The problem is FF's budget tackled the old (medical card), the young (class sizes) and also included everyone in teh 1% levy, imo they should have went after those in the higher earning bracket i.e. more tax bands say for over €70k 50% and then another one for over €100k of 60%

Many many people in this country have become very very wealthy over the last 10 years they need to repay the state now for the next 3 years to get us through this rough period. Not the elderly who paid huge taxes years ago or the students who will be our future tax payers.

snubbleste

I think FF will get in again
Remember 2002, we'd voted on the Nice treaty but we were then told to vote on it again by the FF government because they didn't like the result.
Remember 2007, the tribunals, various scandals emerging, massive payrises for TDs and ministers, the despair that is the healthcare system. It was clear then that the economy was heading downhill, but we still voted them in.

I miss Joe Higgins and his Dáil speeches, he is better than all the opposition put together in the current Dáil.

dresden8

Guys, no more spit-roasting of Harney and Cowan please, I've just eaten.

Surely abolition of the PRSI ceiling would have raised a few bob?

DublinWriter

irish_bob wrote: »

the elderly are sacred cows not only politically but on boards also , your right , the country cant afford the continuation of this immoral scheme , in fact it is taking money away from struggling familys who need the money to put food on the table , people with debts unlike the elderly who are in nearly all cases debt free ,

Ah yes, social eugenics.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm really starting to fucking despair about how under 35's in this country view the elderly.

As Felix Dennis said on Maireanne Funnucaine this morning, a country should be judged by how it treats it's old, it's mentally ill and it's penal population.

The whole debate for me is sparking wider questions about the Irish character and the lack of basic humanity therein.

is_that_so

dresden8 wrote: »

Surely abolition of the PRSI ceiling would have raised a few bob?

Indeed it could and it would have generated a lot of moaning but none of the heat being stoked by the mess they have delivered. Coupled with an actual 1/2% tax increase and genuine public sector reform they could have weathered it far better. As it stands they've hit the elderly and when the education cuts kick in, the young. They should ask John Bruton what happens when you do that.

Darragh29

jmayo wrote: »

FFS it is not some pop idol competition.
The X factor ? WTF it is not a reality tv show :rolleyes:
Maybe you should go back to watching TV 3.
You may think he is boring, wooden or whatever, but does that matter if he makes the right decisions, the hard decisions that puts the country and it's people first rather than his buddies. Does it matter if he puts the right people in positions of power.
Richard Bruton I reckon would make a good minister of finance.
It may involve making some unpopular decisions, e.g taking on public service unions but that is what is needed, not someone that looks good to you on telly and someone that you would want to take for a pint down the local :rolleyes:
You are not voting for a mate, you are voting for someone to do a job.
He took over FG at time when they were at a real low.
He managed to turn them around but of course he was no bertie.
Yeah the great one that has now left us in this mess.

Ya ya ya... :rolleyes:

When I vote, after weighting up the pro's and cons of the debate, I usually go on a gut feeling on a particular candidate, some call it the x factor, I don't care what it is called, that person must look and feel like a leader in my eyes if I am to vote for them. Some people have it, most people don't. Enda Kenny doesn't have it, Biffo doesn't have it, I think Richard Bruton does.

I never voted for FG in my life and I never will as long as I see a begrudging and bitching Enda Kenny giving out and finger wagging...

People know the money made over the last few years has been utterly wasted and it's gone now and isn't coming back. I think what people now want is a pragmatist who can call the time of death on the celtic tiger, publish the death cert, finish the funeral, give us a collective hug, draw a clear line under the bawling and moaning and start leading us back upwards and onwards...

Until that leader arrives, whoever he or she is, we are going nowhere...

arse..biscuits

DublinWriter wrote: »

Maybe it's just me, but I'm really starting to fucking despair about how under 35's in this country view the elderly.

What makes you say that? What have under 35's got to do with all this?

Darragh29

DublinWriter wrote: »

Maybe it's just me, but I'm really starting to fucking despair about how under 35's in this country view the elderly.

Don't worry DublinWriter, they'll grow out of it... ;);)

Mr.Micro

Darragh29 wrote: »

Don't worry DublinWriter, they'll grow out of it... ;);)

Lets see how these under 35 s cope with the recession and all that goes with it. Tough times were all the older people knew and they are here to tell the tale, survivors in a word. They could teach the young guns a thing or three

irish_bob

DublinWriter wrote: »

Ah yes, social eugenics.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm really starting to fucking despair about how under 35's in this country view the elderly.

As Felix Dennis said on Maireanne Funnucaine this morning, a country should be judged by how it treats it's old, it's mentally ill and it's penal population.

The whole debate for me is sparking wider questions about the Irish character and the lack of basic humanity therein.

i agree with you that the whole debate is sparking wider questions about the irish charechter , its asking the question just how mushy headed, fickle grubby and open to manipulation we are as a people

dresden8

Is there any way we can post all these budget threads out to old people so they would know what the average FF supporter really thinks of them?

P1ss and die granny, we need to balance the budget.

Orion

irish_bob wrote: »

ethe country cant afford the continuation of this immoral scheme ,

X Squeeze me?

Immoral? Which morals exactly does it offend? The one that says that the elderly have paid their dues and got their benefits so **** them? :rolleyes:

Agent Smith

K4t wrote: »

Enda Kenny taking that 'huge':rolleyes: pay cut has finally shown him up to be the ignorant fool he really is. He is a nice, caring man but he has no sense of 'real life' politics and what it takes to lead a country. Most families in Ireland could live off the amount he cut his wages by.

i'm sorry, but LOL

Orion

Agent Smith wrote: »

i'm sorry, but LOL

No need to be sorry. I'd love to see any family that could live on €5000 a year. The dole is over 10K - and that's breadline stuff.

Run_to_da_hills

K4t wrote: »

:

- Why are we paying over €800,000 a year to store electronic voting machines that don't work?

They work fine, €800,000 a year is about right for a fully air conditioned industrial unit 24/7 365 to store such a vast quantity of sensative electronic equipment. No doubt the Governmant is holding off on this project until such time as they roll out the "multi functional" National ID card :eek:


They FF Government brought in a free medical system that has in itself prolonged the lives of thousands of pensioners and it is now all coming back to haunt them.

luckat

It's true, Ireland has become a land of gombeen mentality. Alas.