Could Budget 2009 bring down the Government?

Gael23

It will bring rhem down if they dont change their minds fast. I think mary harney will have to resign no matter what happens.

colly10

DarkJager wrote: »

I couldn't believe that anybody could have been so stupid and naive to believe anything was going to change by giving FF another term.

Not a fan of the current government but theres absolutely no way i'd ever want to see Kenny running this country

Tha Gopher

The TDs should say **** the public and **** the media quite frankly. Im paying a few quid more in tax, but it could have been worse. And of course pensioners should be means tested. You really think, say, a retired Dublin pub owner and an elderly widow on state pension have the same financial needs? Typical Irish begrudgery. For once FF have done something half decent.

Darragh29

On the e-voting machines, you have to seriously question the collective mental ability of the people who make up the constituency that re-elected Martin Cullen after spending 52 million Euro on machines that may as well have been fu*ked off the Dun Laoghaire pier the day they arrived in Ireland.

mumhaabu

Darragh29 wrote: »

On the e-voting machines, you have to seriously question the collective mental ability of the people who make up the constituency that re-elected Martin Cullen after spending 52 million Euro on machines that may as well have been fu*ked off the Dun Laoghaire pier the day they arrived in Ireland.

I am quite sure the reason the e-Voting machine were scrapped was because the vast majority of the electorate in said constituencies would not be able to use them and the politicians were afraid that too many people would accidentally vote for the wrong person.

PixelTrawler

I see the 1% levy is being looked at next... its all a bit of a mess really... what next...

They should have just had the budget in december instead of rolling out this half-assed badly thought out effort... i think they could have used the extra 6 weeks.

dresden8

You'd think Coughlan would know not to mess with the oul'ones after she had to back down over the widow's and lone parents UB issue.

Ludo

Tha Gopher wrote: »

The TDs should say **** the public and **** the media quite frankly. Im paying a few quid more in tax, but it could have been worse. And of course pensioners should be means tested. You really think, say, a retired Dublin pub owner and an elderly widow on state pension have the same financial needs? Typical Irish begrudgery. For once FF have done something half decent.

erm...the problem isn't the means test for the medical card...it is the rediculously low threshold they announced for the means test. Anyone on a state pension and a tiny extra pension (cie pension of a few quid for example in my parents case) would be knocked out of the system. They should be knocking out the top 20% to get the people you mention but their stupidly low bar knocks out people on low incomes also.

Frankly this government should call it a day. They can't organise a piss-up in a brewery...remember the driving licence fiasco last year? They don't think things through. They go off half-arsed announcing vague things and then row back on them when they realise they have been stupid. Another example of this is the €200 parking tax...how the hell is that going to work?
I wouldn't trust them to run a stall in a market not to mind the country. Pity the other crowd are just as bad though so no real alternative.

is_that_so

mumhaabu wrote: »

I am quite sure the reason the e-Voting machine were scrapped was because the vast majority of the electorate in said constituencies would not be able to use them and the politicians were afraid that too many people would accidentally vote for the wrong person.

There were two main reasons. Security and lack of a paper trail. The most memorable use of it was in Dublin North when Nora Owens was told "live on TV" that she had lost.

Tha Gopher wrote: »

The TDs should say **** the public and **** the media quite frankly. Im paying a few quid more in tax, but it could have been worse. And of course pensioners should be means tested. You really think, say, a retired Dublin pub owner and an elderly widow on state pension have the same financial needs? Typical Irish begrudgery. For once FF have done something half decent.

Not quite that simple I am afraid. In any budget there are options, some economically good, some bad , some politically wise and some not. They've thrown a few of the latter into this one by picking on two socially vulnerable groups. This is also the beauty of tough budgets. It pits us all against each other and results in lots of finger-pointing and mutterings.

What it certainly has shown is that we will be in even bigger trouble if this government can't get its act together. This is only the first in a long series of bad news days and there is already war in the ranks.

It has also shown the sheer foolishness of the early Budget and the inability of FF backbenchers to deal with people not liking them. Like share prices , popularity rises and falls. No-one denies the need for tough decisions but ultimately the unthought-out choices they settled on have caused the furore. They really have no-one to blame but themselves. It beggars belief that no-one within government circles sought to think through the possible reactions to the proposals or more importantly how they would work.

I also think the shambles of almost daily backtracking, removes any claim to competent government they had. Meanwhile looks like education cuts are likely to the news story this week, while the Minister for Education is in China.

luckat

Tha Gopher wrote: »

The TDs should say **** the public and **** the media quite frankly. Im paying a few quid more in tax, but it could have been worse. And of course pensioners should be means tested. You really think, say, a retired Dublin pub owner and an elderly widow on state pension have the same financial needs? Typical Irish begrudgery. For once FF have done something half decent.

Gopher, in theory that's all very well, but you speak as someone who's never been means-tested. It's unutterably humiliating. And an expensive exercise.

The trouble is that we have an elected oligarchy. People listen to their friends, and the clever, well-off, successful politicians simply aren't friends with anyone except wealthy people and successful people.

They have no concept of what it is to be old and afraid you mightn't have the money for the next huge bill.

They don't know what it is to be frightened to go to the doctor - not just because you might be told that the odd discolouration on your leg is the start of cancer, and that nasty cough the first sign of an age-related pulmonary fibrosis, but because you know that you can't pay for the treatment.

What will happen, you worry - will you have to sell the house, your only wealth and the one thing you hoped to pass on to your children (themselves now struggling)? If you do sell the house, will the Government take the money? And where will you live?

Now, pull yourself together, girl, stop worrying, you tell yourself. It'll be just fine. Now, I just have to find the €55 for the doctor's fee and the €100 for the medicine. Well. Hmm. Haven't got that to find in this week's money, maybe I can put some by each week and go next month. Sure a little cough never hurt anyone.

DublinWriter

is_that_so wrote: »

Meanwhile looks like education cuts are likely to the news story this week, while the Minister for Education is in China.

As will be Cowan, both getting out of Dodge, methinks.

I can see FG tabling a vote of no confidence once the Dail debates on the budget have concluded. I can also foresee at least the two independents jumping ship as they won't want to be associated with the budget in any re-election.

FG would have FF totally on the back foot in a pre-Christmas General Election. The chances of FF winning such a General Election would be at best minimal given their grossly unpopular budget.

An FG electoral success would dove-tail for them into the Local Elections next year.

The question is, do FG really want to take over the reigns when everything in the country is heading south?

luckat

The Greens will be having an emergency meeting on Wednesday - just when the oldies have the demo outside the Dáil...

Taltos

Hopefully this post will not meander too much but I am just so sick to death of it all.

Medical Cards to 70+ - for supporting this country during the 70s & 80s when taxes and interest rates were through the roof - this is the least we can do. You all need to remember that in a few years we will all fall into this category.

eVoting - another money drain - who voted for it and who is being paid to store the machines...

M50 Toll Bridge - we bought it and somehow we are still paying for it

Vat - this is on everything now - another form of double taxation. We pay tax on our income; PRSI; vat on good we buy - where does it end.

Options to FF - come on - each party has shown they are just as corrupt - Haughey - Bertie... Personally I liked Haughey - my father was a staunch supporter and I met him when I was a kid. We all knew what was going on - so lets not play dumb now.

FG as an option? - I remember the last time they were in. Did not last too long did they. There is a reason FF has been in power so long now.

Infrastructure - how much have we spent? And what is the true value when new motor-ways now have flood-warnings - "only in Ireland"

Transport - another joke - all routes are via city centre. I would love to cycle to work or get a bus - but from Walkinstown to Blanchardstown - the only "safe" option is to drive.

Crime - Ireland is definitely no longer the safe haven it once was. Now the criminals are free to direct their operations with impunity from their prison cells while they watch "Prison Break" on their LCD TVs. Why are we funding this type of organization. Lets bring back hard-labour and ensure that Life-means-Life. I am not sure about the rest of you but I am sick to my teeth of hearing of some criminal being re-arrested while on parole after committing some other offence. Maybe New York has it right - 3 strikes and you are out. If you consistently flout the laws of society lets throw away the key and make you pay for your upkeep through hard-work.

Children's Hospital - another politcal move. Why move it to a local that cannot support the traffic.

Mental Hospital - another political decision. People with these special needs require our help and understanding - not the stigma of being on the grounds of a prison.

Gay marriage - political/religous pressure to deny a segment of our society the same rights as everyone else. We should be ashamed in this day and age of our close-minded views.

Lisbon Treaty - were we really surprised this was rejected? Who out there really knows what it was all about. I know of some older generation who voted yes to support their party affiliations, grand - but the younger generation are not so unthinking.

Health Service - enough said there.

How many examples do we need to show that our form of government is just not working any more. It has become so beuracratic that it is no longer in touch with the real people out there slogging for a miserly wage to pay for all the extra levies put on us.

It is only a matter of time before the public groundswell rises (hopefully) to make it clear to all these so called public representatives that enough is enough. We know you are all just in it for yourselves (with a few exceptions). The recent resignation of one representative is to be applauded. I wonder though what else do they have to do for the general public to rise up and march on the Dail and demand that these "money-lenders" come clean. We need a radical over-haul of not only our method of running the country but also the people doing it. We all seem content to sit back and whinge to each other but as I said to one pensioner - "don't just sit there complaining - do something". We all need to do something in order for change to be realised.

Ludo

Taltos wrote: »

We all seem content to sit back and whinge to each other but as I said to one pensioner - "don't just sit there complaining - do something". We all need to do something in order for change to be realised.

Pretty much agree with all of what you say there Taltos...but may I ask what you are doing about it? You tell a pensioner to not sit there complaining but do something about it...are you following your own advice?

Taltos

Ludo wrote: »

Pretty much agree with all of what you say there Taltos...but may I ask what you are doing about it? You tell a pensioner to not sit there complaining but do something about it...are you following your own advice?

Good question - I intend to start by initially joining them in their rally this Wednesday, and will see from there. Letters to my local reps will be the next step - even if I no longer believe in them.
You are right - it is very easy to make noise / bluster and not follow up on it.

Protest Rally
on
Withdrawal of Medical Cards for Over 70s

Wednesday
22nd October 2008
12.30 pm

Dáil Eireann
Kildare Street Entrance

Senior Citizens Parliament
01 8561234
ceo@seniors.ie

Public Health Service Campaign
healthcampaign@gmail.com
www.publichsc.blogspot.com

Got this from>> http://www.indymedia.ie/article/89523

Ludo

Good....I wish I was still working in Dublin city centre as I would go along also but in Cork now. I didn't mean any offence by my question by the way. When I read it back myself I realised it may have come across in a slightly antagonistic manner which I did not mean...thank you for taking it in a decent manner.

Fighting Irish

Could someone explain this medical card thing to me in simple terms?

This is how i think it is,
Everyone over 65 gets a medical card
Gov want to give them to the people over 65 who really need them

Does the gov pay the doctor €50 or whatever, everytime a medical card is used?

Thanks

Rock Climber

I dont get this.
Surely medical cards for the over 70s should be means tested.
I mean,I assume the benefits of it are that over 70s are old so most likely to get sick but if thats the case why not just have free medicine for everyone sick regardless of means and be done with it...

This is a hobby horse by people who dont care about costs in my opinion.
I dont want a medical card when I am 70 unless I cannot pay for my medicines and thats the way it should be.

Anything else is madness in my opinion

Fighting Irish

Rock Climber wrote: »

I dont get this.
Surely medical cards for the over 70s should be means tested.
I mean,I assume the benefits of it are that over 70s are old so most likely to get sick but if thats the case why not just have free medicine for everyone sick regardless of means and be done with it...

This is a hobby horse by people who dont care about costs in my opinion.
I dont want a medical card when I am 70 unless I cannot pay for my medicines and thats the way it should be.

Anything else is madness in my opinion

Thats what i'm thinking but then again i don't know all the facts

Anyone care to explain

Taltos

Ludo wrote: »

Good....I wish I was still working in Dublin city centre as I would go along also but in Cork now. I didn't mean any offence by my question by the way. When I read it back myself I realised it may have come across in a slightly antagonistic manner which I did not mean...thank you for taking it in a decent manner.

No worries - have not been called "decent" in quite a while - Cheers

As to the other questions below on what it is all about.
I am sorry - while I agree that most things should be means tested - for the over 70s I think over the years they have paid enough.
The last thing they need at their age is the worry over whether they will qualify for treatment or not. It should be a right for all 70+ to receive this small return for all their hard work. Yes - some might be able to afford it - but that is not the point.

The real issue here is I think that when implemented the costs agreed with the GPs etc were too high - so yet another knee jerk reaction - lets penalize the aged - they will not complain, after all they all support the government, and will do what's right for the increased wages of our politicians.

Fighting Irish

Taltos wrote: »

No worries - have not been called "decent" in quite a while - Cheers

As to the other questions below on what it is all about.
I am sorry - while I agree that most things should be means tested - for the over 70s I think over the years they have paid enough.
The last thing they need at their age is the worry over whether they will qualify for treatment or not. It should be a right for all 70+ to receive this small return for all their hard work. Yes - some might be able to afford it - but that is not the point.

The real issue here is I think that when implemented the costs agreed with the GPs etc were too high - so yet another knee jerk reaction - lets penalize the aged - they will not complain, after all they all support the government, and will do what's right for the increased wages of our politicians.

Work hard all your life and don't be stupid with your money and you should be alright.

EuskalHerria

I think this budget won't be the final nail for fianna fail.

Firstly we are in difficult times so people realise and are acceptant times will be a bit harder now so i don't think most people will be to hard on the governemnt for ahving to tighten the purse strings.

Secondly the government are backtracking pretty hard on the medical card fiasco so i think come election time it will long be out of the memories.

Thirdly we unfortunately are becoming more like america with just two major parties to choose from and i think i speak for most when i say the majority will not vote for fine gael while enda kenny is still leader.

Villain

Rock Climber wrote: »

I dont get this.
Surely medical cards for the over 70s should be means tested.
I mean,I assume the benefits of it are that over 70s are old so most likely to get sick but if thats the case why not just have free medicine for everyone sick regardless of means and be done with it...

This is a hobby horse by people who dont care about costs in my opinion.
I dont want a medical card when I am 70 unless I cannot pay for my medicines and thats the way it should be.

Anything else is madness in my opinion

The issue is not a problem for anyone under 70 who can afford to pay high VHI fee’s and pay the doctor in a few years the issue is for those who already have the card and have become used to having the freedom to go to the doctor without having to worry about the costs. Yes means testing is required but not at the levels they announced originally or even the revised level’s. The elderly citizens of this state paid huge taxes during their working life and stayed in a country that was often bleak and very tough for them.

The miscommunication along with the desperately low means they first announced have put the elderly in a state of fear that can only be rectified by allowing all those who currently have a medical card to keep and then mean testing from Jan 1st for anyone who becomes 70 after that. Just because the Government announced this scheme before negotiating with the doctors allowing them to get 4 times the normal fee isn’t the fault of the elderly, although a certain FG TD holds a lot of blame there which I’m sure Dr Reilly will hear more about.

The 100 million could be saved in far more area’s that wouldn’t cause the fear we have seen the elderly suffer.

Fighting Irish

Villain wrote: »

The issue is not a problem for anyone under 70 who can afford to pay high VHI fee’s and pay the doctor in a few years the issue is for those who already have the card and have become used to having the freedom to go to the doctor without having to worry about the costs. Yes means testing is required but not at the levels they announced originally or even the revised level’s. The elderly citizens of this state paid huge taxes during their working life and stayed in a country that was often bleak and very tough for them.

The miscommunication along with the desperately low means they first announced have put the elderly in a state of fear that can only be rectified by allowing all those who currently have a medical card to keep and then mean testing from Jan 1st for anyone who becomes 70 after that. Just because the Government announced this scheme before negotiating with the doctors allowing them to get 4 times the normal fee isn’t the fault of the elderly, although a certain FG TD holds a lot of blame there which I’m sure Dr Reilly will hear more about.

The 100 million could be saved in far more area’s that wouldn’t cause the fear we have seen the elderly suffer.

So its pay for the poor and not for the rich?
That seems fair as usual

Villain

Fighting Irish wrote: »

So its pay for the poor and not for the rich?
That seems fair as usual

Don't follow?

jacool

Villain wrote: »

The 100 million could be saved in far more area’s that wouldn’t cause the fear we have seen the elderly suffer.

Agreed - people do not decide that they will turn 70, it sort of happens. Children's allowance on the other hand comes from a choice that people can make and this should be means tested instead. Dunno if it would raise €100m, but it would be a start.
Did Biffo go to China after all, or has he stayed behind to deal with this issue ? The next election could be interesting unless people feel that they get the frustration out in the local elections next year. The FF'ers gathered in Ballinasloe seemed only to be worried about not getting re-elected in 2009.

Villain

He's delaying going to China until Tuesday Night.

gurramok

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Thats what i'm thinking but then again i don't know all the facts

Anyone care to explain

Once you reach 70, you get an automatic entitlement to a medical card even if you were previously on private health insurance.

FF originally stated that the majority of those affected by the Budget would be entitled to some 'sort of replacement' which is a GP visit card or €400 for the year.
A GP visit card is just that. It does not pay for drugs, hospital stays, A&E visits, aftercare etc. (Drugs costs 100 per month for any private citizen)

The problem lies in that the income threshold for the medical card was set at around €203 per week taking into account of rent/mortgage. Now, most old people would own their homes as they paid off 25yr mortgages slaving all their life with 60% tax rates on the breadline. Some would rent from the councils for their housing.

Now, this is the crux. The state pension is €230 as week. All of the above including pensioners over 80(who get more) and those with a tiny bit of private pension from working is sh1tty low paid jobs would of been excluded from the medical card.

Then Mary Couglan stated that these measures only affected the high paying judges etc.
Can you not blame the OAP's for been pissed?

They raised the threshold after that to €240 a week. Still too low. My mother who lives in working class Finglas gets €37 a week from a private pension, a tiny sum in todays world and yet she would lose the medical card for being 'rich and wealthy'

And as i was stating on the other thread, the elderly get chronic disease unlike us young-un's and cannot afford to pay their way because either their income is too low or they be rejected by the VHI etc as too much of a risk.

Plus milionaires wouldn't use the medical card anyway as you cannot see them using the public health service queueing 7hrs on a trolley in A&E, its absurd to think so.

Penalising the elderly for €100m savings is disgusting when the govt found €500m to help the builders/developers sell their new houses through the 'Homeloanchoice' scheme plus they never tackled the overstaffed admin section of the HSE itself.!!

kraggy

Tha Gopher wrote: »

The TDs should say **** the public and **** the media quite frankly. Im paying a few quid more in tax, but it could have been worse. And of course pensioners should be means tested. You really think, say, a retired Dublin pub owner and an elderly widow on state pension have the same financial needs? Typical Irish begrudgery. For once FF have done something half decent.

The problem is not with means testing. It's with how low the income threshold of that means testing is going to be set.

It's a disgrace.

ateam

kraggy wrote: »

The problem is not with means testing. It's with how low the income threshold of that means testing is going to be set.

It's a disgrace.

Why?

Millionaires should not get medical cards.