Could Budget 2009 bring down the Government?

dresden8

ateam wrote: »

Why?

Millionaires should not get medical cards.

Ok, we'll set the means test at a million a year, not €240 a week.

Sorted.

kraggy

ateam wrote: »

Why?

Millionaires should not get medical cards.

Solicitors, accountants, doctors, rich knackers etc. should not get medical cards. End of.

Little Dolly Byrne who takes the state pension and the little bit she gets from her deceased husband's pension should not have to pay for medical attention.

Read my post again. It's about the threshold being set in the means testing that's the problem.

mike65

Finian McGrath (independent for some Dublin constituency) is holding forth in a press conference in the next hour.

Mike

ateam

Finian McGrath has been huffing and puffing about everything and anything since he agreed to support the Government. It's about time that he sticks to his word.

ateam

kraggy wrote: »

Solicitors, accountants, doctors, rich knackers etc. should not get medical cards. End of.

Little Dolly Byrne who takes the state pension and the little bit she gets from her deceased husband's pension should not have to pay for medical attention.

Read my post again. It's about the threshold being set in the means testing that's the problem.

"Rich knackers"? Someone who might save your life is a knacker.

kraggy

ateam wrote: »

"Rich knackers"? Someone who might save your life is a knacker.

My point is that anyone who has money should not be entitled to a medical card and that it's not just the traditional professionals that have money these days.

ateam

kraggy wrote: »

My point is that anyone who has money should not be entitled to a medical card and that it's not just the traditional professionals that have money these days.

No need for that type of language is the point I'm making.

kraggy

What do you mean language? As in the English language?

Villain

FG will not pair with missing FF TD's unless they are on serious business : http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1020/breaking58.htm

ateam

kraggy wrote: »

What do you mean language? As in the English language?

To call doctors, accountants or rich people in general knackers.

kraggy

ateam wrote: »

To call doctors, accountants or rich people in general knackers.

I presume you're joking? I never called them knackers.

turgon

kraggy was saying "Solicitors AND accountants AND doctors AND rich knackers" not "Solicitors AND accountants AND doctors ALL OF WHOM ARE rich knackers"

luckat

So your parents scrimp and save to send you through college, and you qualify as a doctor or a lawyer, and work all your life and pay taxes on your earnings, and serve your country, and you get a good pension - which is also taxed, incidentally - and because you've earned well when you were in work, you shouldn't get a medical card?

Hang on till I get my coat.

Incidentally, Daniel Cohen, who's an economist and a professor at l'Ecole d'Economie in Paris, had a piece in Le Monde a couple of days ago ("La Fin d'Un Monde") about how the poor and disadvantaged are going to be targeted in this crisis. Can't find it online, unfortunately.

kraggy

luckat wrote: »

So your parents scrimp and save to send you through college, and you qualify as a doctor or a lawyer, and work all your life and pay taxes on your earnings, and serve your country, and you get a good pension - which is also taxed, incidentally - and because you've earned well when you were in work, you shouldn't get a medical card?

Hang on till I get my coat.

Incidentally, Daniel Cohen, who's an economist and a professor at l'Ecole d'Economie in Paris, had a piece in Le Monde a couple of days ago ("La Fin d'Un Monde") about how the poor and disadvantaged are going to be targeted in this crisis. Can't find it online, unfortunately.

Your parents would be well dead by the time you've reached 70 and are looking for a free medical card. And after a career in medicine, you could well afford to pay for your own medical expenses and get the same kind of priority treatment that you would have given to patients yourself down through the years in your role as Consultant or Registrar or what have you.

This is here and this is now. Because of the economic downturn, there is only so much money in the kitty. The over 70's with modest to poor incomes have been unduly targetted in this budget. There are countless other ways of saving/raising money that would not be so callous, lacking in thought and downright scandalous.

mike65

McGrath withdraws support.

Mike

Villain

Yep a majority of 8 now and Jackie Healy Rae is doubtful, the pressure is really on now.

Tableman

Your parents would be well dead by the time you've reached 70 and are looking for a free medical card. And after a career in medicine, you could well afford to pay for your own medical expenses and get the same kind of priority treatment that you would have given to patients yourself down through the years in your role as Consultant or Registrar or what have you.

This is here and this is now. Because of the economic downturn, there is only so much money in the kitty. The over 70's with modest to poor incomes have been unduly targetted in this budget. There are countless other ways of saving/raising money that would not be so callous, lacking in thought and downright scandalous.

I understand the point that you are making but you could argue that the richer people have worked harder during their life, contributed more to the country and therefore more entitled to a free medical card

kraggy

Tableman wrote: »

I understand the point that you are making but you could argue that the richer people have worked harder during their life, contributed more to the country and therefore more entitled to a free medical card

So when it comes to healthcare, a poorer person's life is worth less than a rich person's life because the wealthier person paid more in taxes, even though the poorer person also paid a percentage of their income down through the years? And a percentage of a smaller income at that.

This isn't the Church of Scientology here. We're not paying for redemption. A life is a life. Why would you give a Medical Card to the person who needs it least while the most vulnerable dies on the street?

Villain

The fact those people over 70 now paid huge taxes that helped keep this state going during the bleak years and we have to look after them now. I'm not saying give it without means test but they need to be realistic means test.

Why not means test the Children's allowance?

Run_to_da_hills

Villain wrote: »

The fact those people over 70 now paid huge taxes that helped keep this state going during the bleak years and we have to look after them now. I'm not saying give it without means test but they need to be realistic means test.

Why not means test the Children's allowance?

Why not means test all TD's travelling allowances. :pac:

dresden8

Villain wrote: »

Why not means test the Children's allowance?

Same problem with the medical card. To save any decent sort of money you have to pitch the earnings limit pretty low.

In this instance I mean low enough to hit the vast majority of middle earners, where the wife is already working for practically nothing if childcare costs are taken into account. A hit like this means that for many people there is no point in working.

No increase in the rate is a reduction in real terms anyway.

Screw 'em you might say. But the economy is so set up, childcare costs overall prices etc that to suddenly take a large chunk of money away screws up their income and expenditure balance.

And contrary to what the FF'ers on this board think we're not all as rich as Bono.

Or should we just take it off Civil Servants?

Gael23

I wonder are the changes too little too late

Villain

I don't think the opposition are pushing too hard, they don't want an election now, I mean if you think this budget was tough just wait for next years and I don't think any party will want to be delivering it.

Galmay

The changes are too little too late in my opinion. The way the medical card issue was handled is a resigning offence and the perfect oppurtunity to rid the Dept of Health(and FF) of its PD stench. Also all this dragged out nonsense has only distracted people from the huge problems coming in education from january 1st when kids will be sent home from school due to lack of sick cover.

Gael23

Does anyone think that the fall out over the budget can still bring them down?

dresden8

Galmay wrote: »

The changes are too little too late in my opinion. The way the medical card issue was handled is a resigning offence and the perfect oppurtunity to rid the Dept of Health(and FF) of its PD stench. Also all this dragged out nonsense has only distracted people from the huge problems coming in education from january 1st when kids will be sent home from school due to lack of sick cover.

Nobody wants to get within a mile of health. Normally junior ministers and backbenchers would be screaming for yer wan to be kicked out so a promotion opportunity would open up, bigger pension and a merc.

Nobody wants that job. I don't think Bruton really wants to deliver the next budget either. FF haven't even papered over the cracks in the finances. It's going to get a lot worse from here on in.

luckat

Maybe we could just offer to swap our medical system with France's.

Sarkozy's a rightist, he'd probably love the deal. And we'd have a system with doctors paid half what they earn in Ireland - but with decent working hours - and with enough doctors, cheap medicine, efficiency, plenty of machines and beds.

I think we should at least offer.

Orion

ryanf1 wrote: »

Does anyone think that the fall out over the budget can still bring them down?

It ain't over yet. 15K oaps and 10K students protesting today? And the teachers and parents are launching their campaign on Friday. Oh the fun

electrofilth

Tableman wrote: »

I understand the point that you are making but you could argue that the richer people have worked harder during their life, contributed more to the country and therefore more entitled to a free medical card

what do you mean by richer people working harder? just cause you end up with a few bob doesnt mean you worked any harder than someone who had worked even more hours for less money? not in all cases anyay. especially if the poor didnt even have a choice to get better work.... i dont see your logic at all.....

and, if you look at it in a purely common sense kind of way, surely those who earn less are,in ethical terms, contributing more than the higher earners. to explain this compare it to a rich person and a poor person both giving a percentage of their wages to charity, which is the more noble act? surely the poorer persons is, as they could do with the money alot more. doesnt hurt the rich to contribute does it? surely they could do without the extra car for a few years?

so my view is that it is a warped sense of logic to think that higher earners are more deserving of a medical card than those who struggled. can you see what i am getting at?

beggars_bush

i think you'll find that the rich person will find a way of claiming back a donation to charity through some sort of tax refund scheme...

rich people don't like parting with their money (with the few very honourable exceptions)