Who goes to hell?

MrPudding · 23-10-2008 9:52am

kelly1 wrote: »

That's a good question. We're all God's creatures but don't become His children until baptism. I would say they're not Christians because disbelief is a mortal sin and therefore they have deprived themselves of sanctifying grace.

I read a few times that baptism (and confirmation/holy orders) confers and indelible "imprint" on the soul. This means that those who bear this mark and go to hell, will suffer all the more because of it. Frightening thought.

Wow. Your god really is very holy, merciful and does not hold a grudge. All round nice chap.

MrP

Dades · 23-10-2008 10:04am

kelly1 wrote: »

disbelief is a mortal sin

That, in no way makes any sense.

kelly1 wrote: »

Frightening thought.

No doubt that was the purpose of said nonsense.

robindch · 23-10-2008 10:34am

kelly1 wrote: »

I read a few times that baptism (and confirmation/holy orders) confers and indelible "imprint" on the soul. This means that those who bear this mark and go to hell, will suffer all the more because of it. Frightening thought.

As Dades said, the purpose is to frighten others into believing what some want them to believe.

What a nasty, arrogant thing to do to credulous or vulnerable people.

gramlab · 23-10-2008 10:45am

kelly1 wrote: »

God knows the future but that doesn't mean that it's in accordance with His will. God doesn't desire rebellion and sin from His creatures but He knows it will happen./QUOTE]

If he knew the future then how can he punish anyone?

He created everything knowing the outcomes and yet will happily punish those who's lives are already laid out?

If anything he should punish himself for not doing a good enough job in the first place. If you want worshipers, then create worshipers. If you want followers, create followers.

If you don't know what you want, create humans!

PDN · 23-10-2008 10:57am

gramlab wrote: »

kelly1 wrote: »

God knows the future but that doesn't mean that it's in accordance with His will. God doesn't desire rebellion and sin from His creatures but He knows it will happen./QUOTE]

If he knew the future then how can he punish anyone?

He created everything knowing the outcomes and yet will happily punish those who's lives are already laid out?

If anything he should punish himself for not doing a good enough job in the first place. If you want worshipers, then create worshipers. If you want followers, create followers.

If you don't know what you want, create humans!

If you want mindless obedience then create robots.

If you want intelligent beings with free moral choices then create humans.

robindch · 23-10-2008 1:55pm

PDN wrote: »

If you want intelligent beings with free moral choices then create humans.

But then why mess up that picture by sending most of them to burn for not thinking you exist?

What's it all for?

Fanny Cradock · 23-10-2008 5:23pm

I've seen you make this assertion on a number of occasions before. Surely you understand our position at this stage, robin. Or, to quote some rugby guy I once heard, are you just playing silly buggers?

robindch · 23-10-2008 5:34pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I've seen you make this assertion on a number of occasions before. Surely you understand our position at this stage

No, I'm not playing silly buggers, or indeed am I playing rugby, nor even trying to disinter irresolvable questions.

But for the life of me, I simply can't understand how christians (and muslims) can think that this is implies either a reasonable creator or a reasonable universe. And going one step past the question of whether or not the threat is real -- which I don't think so, but you do -- why the threat exists in the first place.

Why do you think that god made it this way? What benefit accrues to anything by designing the rules of the intentional-universe so that people who think that a deity exist are rewarded, while people who don't think that the same deity exists are tormented for all eternity (with, I have to say, what seems to be a degree of anticipation from one poster that comes close to the lip-smacking).

.

MrPudding · 23-10-2008 6:29pm

robindch wrote: »

No, I'm not playing silly buggers, or indeed am I playing rugby, nor even trying to disinter irresolvable questions.

But for the life of me, I simply can't understand how christians (and muslims) can think that this is implies either a reasonable creator or a reasonable universe. And going one step past the question of whether or not the threat is real -- which I don't think so, but you do -- why the threat exists in the first place.

Why do you think that god made it this way? What benefit accrues to anything by designing the rules of the intentional-universe so that people who think that a deity exist are rewarded, while people who don't think that the same deity exists are tormented for all eternity (with, I have to say, what seems to be a degree of anticipation from one poster that comes close to the lip-smacking).

.

And why do think think it is reasonable?

MrP

PDN · 23-10-2008 8:24pm

robindch wrote: »

But then why mess up that picture by sending most of them to burn for not thinking you exist?

What's it all for?

Definitely playing silly beggars, I think.

Robin, it has been explained to you on a number of occasions that Christians do not believe that God sends people to hell for the 'crime' of not thinking he exists.

We believe that people go to hell for stealing, lying, cheating, oppressing each other etc.

kelly1 · 23-10-2008 10:32pm

PDN wrote: »

Definitely playing silly beggars, I think.

Robin, it has been explained to you on a number of occasions that Christians do not believe that God sends people to hell for the 'crime' of not thinking he exists.

We believe that people go to hell for stealing, lying, cheating, oppressing each other etc.

What is your interpretation of this verse?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

The primary pain of hell is separation from God. All goodness comes from God and so separation from God means a complete absence of good - no love, no kindness, no consolation, no mercy etc.

In the created world there is no state between salvation and damnation. There is only life with God or life without. Life without God is nothing because God is everything. We have no reason to be proud of ourselves because everything we have comes from God.

People often wonder why there isn't a third state between Heaven and Hell, why we can't exist without God. That not the way it works. We are made for union with God. As the bible says, the sun shines on the just and the wicked meaning that God gives His grace to all of us whether we know it or not. Nobody can imagine what life is like without His grace.

Enough rambling from me!

robindch · 23-10-2008 11:16pm

PDN wrote: »

Definitely playing silly beggars, I think.

PDN wrote: »

We believe that people go to hell for stealing, lying, cheating, oppressing each other etc.

Yes, that's your interpretation -- one which leans to a position which seems to me more traditionally associated with mainstream catholic christian beliefs than mainstream protestant christian beliefs.

Here, I'm trying to understand what's beyond Noel's opposite position -- more common in my experience amongst mainstream protestants than mainstream catholics -- in which eternal bliss is guaranteed by the act of thinking that a certain deity exists, while eternal torment is guaranteed by thinking that the same deity doesn't (or may not) exist.

Hence, again, what's it all for? What's the point in creating a system in which one receives eternal torment for not thinking that a system creator, with certain specific attributes, exists?

.

MrPudding · 24-10-2008 7:41am

robindch wrote: »

Hence, again, what's it all for?

Control of the masses and perpetuation of their organisation through guilt and fear of a punishment which is beyond comprehension.

MrP

PDN · 24-10-2008 8:19am

robindch wrote: »

Yes, that's your interpretation -- one which leans to a position which seems to me more traditionally associated with mainstream catholic christian beliefs than mainstream protestant christian beliefs.

Here, I'm trying to understand what's beyond Noel's opposite position -- more common in my experience amongst mainstream protestants than mainstream catholics -- in which eternal bliss is guaranteed by the act of thinking that a certain deity exists, while eternal torment is guaranteed by thinking that the same deity doesn't (or may not) exist.

Hence, again, what's it all for? What's the point in creating a system in which one receives eternal torment for not thinking that a system creator, with certain specific attributes, exists?

.

No, the standard Reformers position is that man deserves hell because he is a sinner. That sin includes lying, stealing, cheating, selfishness, oppression etc.

Then, after it has been established that everyone deserves hell, God offers them a way out. This escape is not deserved or merited, but is entirely an offer of mercy and grace. Those who choose to accept this offer do so by putting their faith in Christ. Those who choose not to reject Christ.

Disbelief in God (or more likely unbelief since such rejection of God is more usually a moral act of the will rather than a genuine intellectual inability to believe) will obviously prevent someone from accepting God's offer of unmerited salvation or escape. However, it is totally wrong to therefore pretend that hell is a punishment for not believing.

Imagine if a prisoner on death row in Texas rejects a pardon from the female Governor because he refuses to believe that a woman could ever be elected Governor of such a redneck state. His execution will still be as a punishment for his crime of murder. No sensible observer would claim that Texas is now executing people for refusing to believe in women Governors, or that they are applying the death penalty to those who cannot identify the Governor.

Zombrex · 24-10-2008 8:58am

PDN wrote: »

No, the standard Reformers position is that man deserves hell because he is a sinner. That sin includes lying, stealing, cheating, selfishness, oppression etc.

Isn't unbelief also a sin (genuine question)? So even if an atheist lead a pure life, never did any of the other sins, he would still be sent to hell.

If it is it could be why a lot of atheists think that they are supposed to be being sent to hell for not believing, a lot of internet "Christians" say as much.

kelly1 · 24-10-2008 9:32am

PDN wrote: »

Disbelief in God (or more likely unbelief since such rejection of God is more usually a moral act of the will rather than a genuine intellectual inability to believe) will obviously prevent someone from accepting God's offer of unmerited salvation or escape. However, it is totally wrong to therefore pretend that hell is a punishment for not believing.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that we're not punished for disbelief/unbelief itself but rather that mercy cannot be obtained unless we ask for it? So if we don't believe, naturally we're not going to accept or ask for salvation through Christ.

Have I got that right?

PDN · 24-10-2008 9:49am

Wicknight wrote: »

Isn't unbelief also a sin (genuine question)? So even if an atheist lead a pure life, never did any of the other sins, he would still be sent to hell.

If it is it could be why a lot of atheists think that they are supposed to be being sent to hell for not believing, a lot of internet "Christians" say as much.

It depends on whether we are talking about genuine disbelief or deliberate unbelief. All of us find that there are things that, on the basis of the evidence offered to us, we cannot believe in. This is why most of us do not believe in unicorns. This is not a moral issue as we derive no short-term benefit by either believing or not believing.

However, there is also wilful unbelief. For example, those whose political or economic position depends upon heavy industry may choose not to believe in global warming. This is a moral issue, as their 'faith' is chosen in order to derive short-term benefits (power & wealth).

This is why Thomas was rebuked for his unbelief by Jesus. He had already seen Jesus work many miracles, including raising the dead. So there was no reason why Thomas should logically reach a position of intellectual disbelief regarding Christ's resurrection from the dead. However, having seen Jesus suffer the torments of crucifixion it was a temptation for him to choose unbelief - otherwise he faced a path of discipleship that, according to the words of Jesus, would mean him "taking up his cross" in order to follow Jesus. Much easier to choose not to believe in the Resurrection!

So, genuine intellectual disbelief may be mistaken and wrong - but it is not sin. Wilful unbelief, perhaps because atheism frees one from certain irksome moral restrictions, is sin.

To answer your question, if an atheist genuinely lived an absolutely sinless life, never sinning in word, thought or deed, but was intellectually unable to believe in God, then I do not believe such a person would go to hell. Indeed, that is the same basis on which I, and indeed most evangelical Christians, believe babies do not go to hell. They have not sinned, so the issue of faith does not arise.

I would add that I do not believe any adult person (other than Jesus) has lived a sinless life, so the question is totally hypothetical.

Now, assume that a person already has sinned and so, according to the Bible, deserves to go to hell. Rejection of the offer of salvation will, sadly, stop them from being rescued from hell. If a drowning man refuses to grasp hold of a proffered lifebelt then it matters not a jot whether his rejection is because he genuinely can't believe in lifebelts or chooses not to. Either way he drowns.

FX Meister · 24-10-2008 9:55am

I'm not a bad person but I do sin a decent bit and I don't believe in god. If when I die I find he does exist then I just get to say sorry for my sins and I get into heaven yeah? The best of both worlds as it may be.

PDN · 24-10-2008 9:56am

kelly1 wrote: »

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that we're not punished for disbelief/unbelief itself but rather that mercy cannot be obtained unless we ask for it? So if we don't believe, naturally we're not going to accept or ask for salvation through Christ.

Have I got that right?

Pretty well, but with the proviso that we are talking about genuine inability to believe rather than wilful unbelief.

I do believe wilful disbelief still incurs punishment. For example, there were racists in the US until recently who chose to believe that black people were not fully human. This enabled them to rationalise their ill treatment of blacks. This unbelief in the humanity of blacks was not a genuine intellectual position, but rather a deliberate posture to excuse the inexcusable. Therefore such unbelief is sin.

I remember reading a book years ago by the late Paul Little in which he described an encounter with an atheist College student in the US. This student kept attending his lectures and heckling him - shouting out the usual old chestnuts against faith in God and the Bible. Eventually Little asked him, "If I answer every one of your questions to your complete satisfaction then would you accept Christ as your Saviour?" The student thought for a moment and then replied, "No - that would mess up my lifestyle." Wilful unbelief.

PDN · 24-10-2008 10:04am

FX Meister wrote: »

I'm not a bad person but I do sin a decent bit and I don't believe in god. If when I die I find he does exist then I just get to say sorry for my sins and I get into heaven yeah? The best of both worlds as it may be.

Not according to the Bible. We will be judged according to what we have done in this life and there is no hint of any opportunity for a change of heart after death.

You see, repentance is not just saying sorry. Repentance is about saying sorry, asking forgiveness, and then making a genuine effort to live a different way. Jesus said that not all who cry "Lord, Lord" will make it into His Kingdom - but rather those who do the will of God.

There have been instances of false deathbed conversions. For example, someone thinks they are dying and makes a big song-and-dance conversion with lots of tears and histrionics. Then they actually recover their health. So their conversion goes out the window and they live just like they did before. That is not repentance - just someone trying to buy some fire insurance. I believe that God, who sees and judges our heart, can distinguish between such self-serving hypocrisy and real heartfelt repentance.

Whispered · 24-10-2008 10:17am

kelly1 wrote: »

The primary pain of hell is separation from God. All goodness comes from God and so separation from God means a complete absence of good - no love, no kindness, no consolation, no mercy etc.

I would wonder then, why some people have to live their hell on earth? Innocent people, from childhood, have to live without love, kindness etc. Exactly as you described hell to be. Why?

PDN wrote: »

So, genuine intellectual disbelief may be mistaken and wrong - but it is not sin. Wilful unbelief, perhaps because atheism frees one from certain irksome moral restrictions, is sin.
.

Do christians believe that people who don't believe in a "christian" god, but who try to live their life well go to hell?

kelly1 · 24-10-2008 10:24am

FX Meister wrote: »

I'm not a bad person but I do sin a decent bit and I don't believe in god. If when I die I find he does exist then I just get to say sorry for my sins and I get into heaven yeah? The best of both worlds as it may be.

I don't believe we get a chance to repent after we die. After we die we will realize very quickly that God exists and we are corrupted by sin and are unfit for heaven (assuming we haven't repented).

I think it's very dangerous to assume that we will get a chance to repent after we die. The bible does warn us several times to be ready for when the Master comes, to always have oil in our lamps, to persevere (in grace) to the end.

PDN · 24-10-2008 10:29am

helena.ryan wrote: »

Do christians believe that people who don't believe in a "christian" god, but who try to live their life well go to hell?

This has been discussed many times on this board, and I would not presume to answer for all Christians.

I believe that nobody actually manages to live their life well, but we all screw up and fall short of righteousness. Therefore we all deserve hell.

The Bible gives us enough information to know what happens to those who genuinely repent and accept God's offer of salvation in Christ, and to those who wilfully reject that offer. I would see no difference between those who reject that offer in favour of atheism or in favour of some other form of theism.

I also believe the Bible gives us enough information to be confident that infants, and severely mentally handicapped adults, can hardly go to hell since they are incapable of understanding the concepts of sin and disobedience.

What about people who sin but never hear the Gospel of Christ? I don't see that the Bible gives us this information so you will get a variety of opinions expressed by Christians. I believe God will judge everyone in a way that is just and merciful - but, as Obama would say, answering that question is beyond my pay grade!

MrPudding · 24-10-2008 10:40am

PDN wrote: »

I would see no difference between those who reject that offer in favour of atheism or in favour of some other form of theism.

Even though your god will occasionally answer the prayers they make to their false god thereby effectively reinforcing the behaviour that is supposed to damn them to hell? Nice.

MrP

kelly1 · 24-10-2008 10:41am

What is for certain is that all salvation is through Christ. Whether non-christians are saved is known only to God (and those who have died).

It is that grace won for us by Christ that saves and nobody really knows who dies in a state of grace. We can make all sort of guesses and assumptions, but nobody on this earth really knows. God's mercy is our only hope.

8kvscdpglqnyr4 · 24-10-2008 11:53am

PDN wrote: »

I also believe the Bible gives us enough information to be confident that infants, and severely mentally handicapped adults, can hardly go to hell since they are incapable of understanding the concepts of sin and disobedience.

So really what you are saying is the lucky ones are born severely mentally handicapped or die as young children and as a result, they get a free pass into heaven for eternity ... is that right? While the rest of us have to battle on a daily basis with to find reasons to believe.

Serious question: are you envious of the infants who die? If I though heaven exsited, then I would have hoped to have died as an infant. 70-ish years on this earth would be nothing in comparison to eternity in heaven.

Fanny Cradock · 24-10-2008 11:59am

Trevor Tall Battery wrote: »

So really what you are saying is the lucky ones are born severely mentally handicapped or die as young children and as a result, they get a free pass into heaven for eternity ... is that right? While the rest of us have to battle on a daily basis with to find reasons to believe.

Serious question: are you envious of the infants who die? If I though heaven exsited, then I would have hoped to have died as an infant. 70-ish years on this earth would be nothing in comparison to eternity in heaven.

That's obviously not a serious question.

kelly1 · 24-10-2008 12:04pm

Trevor Tall Battery wrote: »

So really what you are saying is the lucky ones are born severely mentally handicapped or die as young children and as a result, they get a free pass into heaven for eternity ... is that right? While the rest of us have to battle on a daily basis with to find reasons to believe.

Serious question: are you envious of the infants who die? If I though heaven exsited, then I would have hoped to have died as an infant. 70-ish years on this earth would be nothing in comparison to eternity in heaven.

To die young and innocent isn't necessarily the best that can happen.

Life's trails and tribulations are opportunities for us to grow in virtues (love, patience, mercy etc). I don't think virtue is handed to us on a plate, we have to work at it. Our fights against temptation are rewarded in the form of merit which means that different people will have different degrees of merit which will ultimately result in different degrees of merit for different people. Saints who devote their entire lives to the service of Christ will receive far greater rewards than the person who rarely prays and is generally selfish.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through and steal. 20 But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.

8kvscdpglqnyr4 · 24-10-2008 12:06pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

That's obviously not a serious question.

It is a serious question:mad:

If I had died as an infant, I would now be enjoying myself in heaven. According to PDN, if I were to die now, chances are I would not go to heaven.

If PDN had died as an infant, he would be in heaven enjoying himself. He wouldn't be on this earth wondering if he's doing the right thing to please his God. If PDN was to die right now, all he could do is *hope* that he makes it into heaven.

So I think my original question is a valid one (I appreciate the irony as envy is considered a deadly sin:D)

robindch · 24-10-2008 12:22pm

PDN wrote: »

Then, after it has been established that everyone deserves hell, God offers them a way out. This escape is not deserved or merited, but is entirely an offer of mercy and grace. Those who choose to accept this offer do so by putting their faith in Christ. Those who choose not to reject Christ.

This explanation is straightforward.

However, I'm still trying to step back from the view from within the religion and expressed solely in religious terms, and instead to see if I can understand if religious people believe can view the overall deal structure and establish if they believe that it's reasonable or fair.

I need hardly add that I think there's a much simpler reason why the various understandings of this deal exist, and that all of them are unfair, for the reasons listed at great length in previous threads.

Whispered · 24-10-2008 12:29pm

PDN wrote: »

This has been discussed many times on this board, and I would not presume to answer for all Christians.

Sorry I'm not usually in this forum.

PDN wrote: »

I would see no difference between those who reject that offer in favour of atheism or in favour of some other form of theism.
!

So that means, where I was born, and how i was raised determines whether I go to hell or not?

(I'm going to hell btw, apparently I do the work of the devil lol)

I'd be very interested in my question about peoples hell on earth. If hell is removal from god, surely people who struggle to find faith, and maybe even athiests are already going through their own personal hell?

Also kelly1 (noel?) said that hell was an absence of love, comfort, mercy etc. What about innocent kids who are born into a life like this? Could you argue they are experiencing hell on earth?

Fanny Cradock · 24-10-2008 12:29pm

And it's such a short leap to next ask why Christians aren't lovingly killing their young infants so as to guarantee their place in eternity. Or, for that matter, why Christians don't just kill themselves the the moment they become Christian.

Furthermore, I think that it would be best not to use definitive language to describe somebody else's beliefs when they haven expanded upon them. You do this when you state that PDN only hopes that he can go to heaven if he dies right now. Have you actually asked PDN his opinion on this, or do you just assume it?

8kvscdpglqnyr4 · 24-10-2008 1:32pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

And it's such a short leap to next ask why Christians aren't lovingly killing their young infants so as to guarantee their place in eternity. Or, for that matter, why Christians don't just kill themselves the the moment they become Christian.

I would not ask this question as I know murder and suicide are against Christian teaching. If you follow Jesus, then you would not murder an infant or commit suicide. That much I do understand. If you think I am setting up a straw man, then that is not my intention.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Furthermore, I think that it would be best not to use definitive language to describe somebody else's beliefs when they haven expanded upon them. You do this when you state that PDN only hopes that he can go to heaven if he dies right now. Have you actually asked PDN his opinion on this, or do you just assume it?

Just to recap ... I said:
"If PDN was to die right now, all he could do is *hope* that he makes it into heaven."
I apologise to PDN for using definitive language to describe what I though were his beliefs.:)

Maybe it's an incorrect assumtion I have made to assume every Christian *hopes* to make it into heaven. Fanny Cradock, is that an incorrect assumption? Again, this is a genuine question, I'm really curious to know if there are Christians who do not *hope* to get into Heaven after they die.

My original question is out of genuine curiosity. I drop in a read these fora every now and then and I'm always very interested to read the banter that's goes on. I can usually follow the discussions and most of the time I can see both sides of the arguement. This is one time where I wish to question PDNs logic.

PDN · 24-10-2008 1:32pm

Trevor Tall Battery wrote: »

It is a serious question:mad:

If I had died as an infant, I would now be enjoying myself in heaven. According to PDN, if I were to die now, chances are I would not go to heaven.

If PDN had died as an infant, he would be in heaven enjoying himself. He wouldn't be on this earth wondering if he's doing the right thing to please his God. If PDN was to die right now, all he could do is *hope* that he makes it into heaven.

So I think my original question is a valid one (I appreciate the irony as envy is considered a deadly sin:D)

If I was to die right now I don't 'hope' that I make it into heaven. I know it to be so with every fibre of my being.

Why should I be envious of someone who is in heaven enjoying themselves? I am on earth enjoying myself. I believe that I am making a positive difference to the lives of others and thereby fulfilling God's purpose for my life. When it comes time to die, whether it be tomorrow or in 50 years time, I will go gladly with no complaints and no fear for the future.

PDN · 24-10-2008 1:38pm

helena.ryan wrote: »

Sorry I'm not usually in this forum.

No problem. We are happy for these discussions to include those of all faiths and those of none.

So that means, where I was born, and how i was raised determines whether I go to hell or not?

No, the choices that you make determine your destination. I was born in the UK and raised as an atheist. My assistant pastor was born in northern Nigeria and raised as a Muslim. Our birthplaces and upbringing determined nothing. However we both chose to sin early in our lives - meriting hell. We also both chose to accept the Gospel of Christ, thus escaping hell.

8kvscdpglqnyr4 · 24-10-2008 1:40pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Our fights against temptation are rewarded in the form of merit which means that different people will have different degrees of merit which will ultimately result in different degrees of merit for different people. Saints who devote their entire lives to the service of Christ will receive far greater rewards than the person who rarely prays and is generally selfish.

Noel, does this mean that an infant or severely mentally handicapped person gets less rewards in heaven as someone like yourself who has accepted Jesus and does their best to fight against temptation?

MrPudding · 24-10-2008 1:54pm

Well obviously. Noel would be more deserving. I presume it is similar to how I will get particularly nasty treatment in hell because I was baptised and comfirmed and then had the cheek to realise it was all a load of rubbish, again, according to Noel.

MrP

8kvscdpglqnyr4 · 24-10-2008 1:59pm

PDN wrote: »

Why should I be envious of someone who is in heaven enjoying themselves? I am on earth enjoying myself.

Fair enough - I can see that.

I still would like to understand if you think the people that are born severely mentally handicapped or die as young children get a free pass into heaven for eternity ... is that right?

Zombrex · 24-10-2008 2:00pm

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

And it's such a short leap to next ask why Christians aren't lovingly killing their young infants so as to guarantee their place in eternity. Or, for that matter, why Christians don't just kill themselves the the moment they become Christian.

Unfortunately "loving Christians" do occasionally kill their children to guarantee their place in heaven.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/mother-convicted-of-murdering-her-five-children-653855.html

I would be interested in the Christian take on the idea, beyond the obvious "people who do this are insane" excuse which was some what rejected in the trial (the jury felt she knew what she was doing, and understood that it was wrong).

While it is clearly a sin for her to kill her own children, and while she clearly had strong mental problems which removed the natural instincts to protect rather than harm her children, her killing them wouldn't stop them getting into heaven, in fact it might ensure they did get into heaven. Where as if left to their own choices they may not.

So is it a case of a women doing a harm harmful thing, or a case of a woman doing a horrible thing that does ultimately improve the circumstances of the children?

8kvscdpglqnyr4 · 24-10-2008 2:00pm

MrPudding wrote: »

Well obviously. Noel would be more deserving. I presume it is similar to how I will get particularly nasty treatment in hell because I was baptised and comfirmed and then had the cheek to realise it was all a load of rubbish, again, according to Noel.

MrP

Is you name Noel???:D

MizzLolly · 24-10-2008 2:04pm

I had a Crazy Christian come tell me randomly in town last week that I was damned and would be going straight to hell.

Hardly a very loving, peaceful, merciful thing to say to a stranger.

Zombrex · 24-10-2008 2:10pm

MizzLolly wrote: »

I had a Crazy Christian come tell me randomly in town last week that I was damned and would be going straight to hell.

Hardly a very loving, peaceful, merciful thing to say to a stranger.

well I imagine the loving peaceful bit was the offer to be saved from this

Christians tend (I'm not one) in my view to treat the "your going to hell" bit sort of separate to the core of their religion. Its like saying "you have cancer" and then offering you a cure. The offer of the cure, or the cure itself, isn't related to you getting cancer, though it can save you from it.

You are going to hell is just something that is, now come and look at what Christianity can do about it. Rather than Christianity being why you are going to hell.

MizzLolly · 24-10-2008 2:16pm

Wicknight wrote: »

well I imagine the loving peaceful bit was the offer to be saved from this

Christians tend (I'm not one) in my view to treat the "your going to hell" bit sort of separate to the core of their religion. Its like saying "you have cancer" and then offering you a cure. The cure isn't related to you getting cancer, though it can save you from it.

You are going to hell is just something that is, now come and look at what Christianity can do about it. Rather than Christianity being why you are going to hell.

Interesting.

He didn't offer to save me though.

Ah well!

kelly1 · 24-10-2008 2:19pm

Trevor Tall Battery wrote: »

Noel, does this mean that an infant or severely mentally handicapped person gets less rewards in heaven as someone like yourself who has accepted Jesus and does their best to fight against temptation?

I don't know really but our reward will be based on how much we've loved God and neighbour.

robindch · 24-10-2008 2:23pm

MizzLolly wrote: »

I had a Crazy Christian come tell me randomly in town last week that I was damned and would be going straight to hell.

I'm quite looking forward to meeting the next person who tries that line out on me

Zombrex · 24-10-2008 2:25pm

MizzLolly wrote: »

Interesting.

He didn't offer to save me though.

Ah well!

meh .. he was probably building up to it

8kvscdpglqnyr4 · 24-10-2008 2:26pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't know really but our reward will be based on how much we've loved God and neighbour.

In my opinion, a good Christian has loved God more than an infant has loved God. Seems only logical. Do you agree?

Whispered · 24-10-2008 2:26pm

Can any of the christians answer my query as to why, if hell is seperation from god, lack of love etc, some shildren are born into what could be described as hell.

From a christian point of view, there is no reincarnation, so you can't say that they are living hell because of something they did in a past life. So why do they have to live in this hell?

Also if hell is seperation from god, then could you say athiests are already in hell?

MizzLolly · 24-10-2008 2:29pm

robindch wrote: »

I'm quite looking forward to meeting the next person who tries that line out on me

Why?

Wicknight wrote: »

meh .. he was probably building up to it

Haha probably. I told him I wasn't prepared to discuss it with him. He gave me a coin with jesus on it and said ''I hope you find the right path, little girl''.

Some American fella btw!

Whispered · 24-10-2008 2:31pm

MizzLolly wrote: »

He gave me a coin with jesus on it and said ''I hope you find the right path, little girl''.

you do the work of the devil now too you know. He probably knew. :eek:

Who goes to hell?

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