Hate office/corporate culture

Dudess

[quote=[Deleted User];57657870]They didn't get it this time. Doesn't mean their 'time' won't be in 3 months, or 6 months or 2 years. Someone has to get the job - why wouldn't it be you? I've been turned down for plenty of things, but I've gotten plenty of things as well. I've been picked out of 50 people, 100 people, 200 people for things. But if you have the attitude that it isn't going to happen, it won't happen. And I'm generally a big negative nelly.[/QUOTE]
That's not really what we're talking about. We're talking about being in mundane jobs because the more interesting ones aren't so feasible. That is a reality and it's delusional to think otherwise. You have to get on with things too. And again, not everyone who wants to work in industries with limited job prospects will get in there. That's just basic mathematics.

Strange, because I know a few people who are interns in Washington D.C, doing their 'dream job' for experience and no pay. They do 9-5 Monday to Friday, and then work evenings and weekends in Planet Hollywood to pay the rent and bills. Not easy, but definitely possible. I can totally see where you're coming from, but if everyone had your attitude, surely no-one would be a TV presenter/actress/politican?

That won't last forever or indefinitely. With freelance, you could be doing it for 10 years and still no full-time job - especially when it comes to arts journalism. Guys, I'm literally only talking about a reality, not trying to be defeatist/let myself down etc. Sure, there is nothing to stop me tipping away as a freelancer indefinitely (shudder) on the off-chance that I might get the full-time position I'd like and sure I am able for this work - I have the knowledge, the interest, the writing ability, but unfortunately so do many, many others. And I prefer having money, structure, being able to plan etc. And there also comes a point in life when you NEED these things - that's when you don't have a choice but to take the less exciting option.

And you're talking about freelance reporting - there are plenty of other types of writing (even connected with journalism) where you don't have to be available all the time. My friend used to do bits and pieces while she was doing English in college, and it helped her to get a full time job.

Sorry but I didn't say a thing about freelance reporting - I said arts/cultural features... where there is even less work again. You don't have to be available all the time for freelance writing - again, I never said you did (I was talking about radio). Sure, you can write on the side - I do that - what I'm saying is, I'd love to be a full-time writer. Very, very little chance of that.

Glowing

Yeah ... I have to agree with Dudess here.

Self-belief will only get you so far, there is a degree of luck here too and also knowing the right people to assist in getting the 'good' jobs.

You have to be realistic too ..... particulary when there are mortgages and bills to pay.
Hey, my dream job is to be lead act in a musical (honestly!)!!! I can't sing or dance so no amount of working for free is going to help me with this one!! I'll settle for being in the front row instead

seamus

[quote=[Deleted User];57614615]I also resent the fact a lot of people talk down to me and act like I'm stupid and lack initiative (I'm mostly temping in reception/secretary stuff). I know I'm not stupid. I just find it hard to focus on such mundane tasks all day long and be stuck in a windowless office. [/QUOTE]There you go. I'm pretty sure all the crap would go away very quickly if you were doing something interesting.

Some people are cut out for mundane jobs. They spend all day fixing margins on letters, typing numbers into a column and arguing with dodgy printers, and can go home at the end of the day satisfied.
The rest of us aren't. We manage a week before we say, "What good is this? A trained monkey could do it.".

You sound like you're one of the latter. There's nothing like boredom to make even the greatest of work atmospheres seem like hell.

AARRRGH

Climate Expert wrote: »

Dreamers always end up crashing around their mid 30s when they fail.

I'm not talking about dreaming, I'm talking about doing.

Of course, wanting to be a rap star or TV presenter are fairly extreme things to want, but in general, persistence and hard work will get you very far.

Certainly I will never let a negative attitude make me risk averse. What's the worst that can happen? Failure? Well if you don't try you've already failed.

I see people all around me resigned to a life of mediocrity. It doesn't have to be like that.

Climate Expert

What's the worst that can happen? Failure?

yes failure. Depression and acceptance of your mediocrity. Financial uncertainty after years of chasing some unrealistic dream. Being ten years behind others that have resigned to a life of mediocrity. Now your life will be even more mediocre than theirs.

You see it all the time and its a sad sight.

AARRRGH

Climate Expert wrote: »

yes failure. Depression and acceptance of your mediocrity. Financial uncertainty after years of chasing some unrealistic dream. Being ten years behind others that have resigned to a life of mediocrity. Now your life will be even more mediocre than theirs.

You see it all the time and its a sad sight.

I disagree. I have a good career (well above the industrial average wage), a part-time business, and a couple of other part-time ventures. How much money did I invest in these ventures? A couple of hundred in total.

How much does it cost to write part-time? Zilch. How much does it cost to try to network with media people? Very little. These are low risk - they just take a bit of effort. Dudess needs to keep doing this, and to alter her strategy when she sees which things work and which don't.

It is possible to chase your goals without giving up work or going in debt.

Dudess

It is of course. And again, I network with media people, I have plenty of contacts, and I keep submitting articles/ideas. I wish you'd stop presuming I don't do these things. What I'm saying is, this will not necessarily get me the full-time feature writer position I'd love. But that's fine. However I object to notions that this position is guaranteed if I'm determined enough... There are barely any full-time feature writers.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Certainly I will never let a negative attitude make me risk averse. What's the worst that can happen? Failure? Well if you don't try you've already failed.

I did try. And I don't think I failed - I got to do some very interesting work... but I felt giving it a shot for a while was enough. Now I can say I did it and it's better than not doing it and forever wondering "what if..."

A life of mediocrity is unfortunately the reality for most people. Work is a four-letter word. However if you put your mind to it you can do lots of interesting stuff on the side. But with career specifically in mind: getting your dream job is not always possible.

AARRRGH

Dudess wrote: »

I did try. Etc.

I dunno. Whenever you talk about not having a full-time writing career your posts have a tone of acceptance that that's the way it's going to be. I just find that mentality hard to understand because I am a persistent mofo.

Good move on the PhD though. I plan the same.

Climate Expert

AARRRGH wrote: »

I dunno. Whenever you talk about not having a full-time writing career your posts have a tone of acceptance that that's the way it's going to be. I just find that mentality hard to understand because I am a persistent mofo.

Good move on the PhD though. I plan the same.

I dreamed with a PhD and it nearly ruined me.

DublinWriter

Climate Expert wrote: »

yes failure. Depression and acceptance of your mediocrity. Financial uncertainty after years of chasing some unrealistic dream. Being ten years behind others that have resigned to a life of mediocrity. Now your life will be even more mediocre than theirs.

Jesus wept. Let's put on a Leonard Cohen LP and break out the Jimmy Jones Kool-Aid, shall we?

I think all personal plans/dreams need to be tempered with 'Plan B' type contingency planning.

I'm also mental enough to be considering commencing a PhD in the next year, but I plan to do it part-time over a longer period and will endeavor to minimise its impact to existing personal and professional plans and commitments.

nyarlothothep

Dudess wrote: »

Never once said it was impossible. It is however impossible for EVERYONE who wants to work in a specific area to get a job in this area - especially when there are next to no jobs in it. And your friend in RTE is very lucky. She got where she wanted at the expense of the 100s of others who were going for this position... but who didn't get it.

So I want to be a music/arts/culture presenter/writer - I have accepted the reality that I can't get it definitely. Sure, there's a tiny, tiny, tiny possibility of it happening but the overwhelming likelihood is... it won't. That's what I mean by it being flawed thinking to believe you can do anything you want, as if this is a definite with enough determination. It's not.

Yeah right. I'll bear that in mind so when I apply for a presenting job with the BBC or a writing job with The New York Times. If you think it's possible to get such jobs (along with the zillions of others going for them) you're being delusional. Sure, I'm picking two of the most difficult companies to get into, but you did say "anything".
And what about long-term financial rewards? What about being able to afford to live at all? If I wanted to become a full-time arts presenter/writer I'd have to freelance for years which means **** all money... and there is still absolutely no guarantee of a full-time job. After five years of freelancing, it would be fair enough to give up the ghost. That is NOT being defeatist, it's being practical.

Your situation is different to mine - you have discovered niches and developed your own businesses and fair fecking play to you. I however would love to be involved in industries that already exist and in which countless others would love to be involved... but there are not enough positions to meet demand, and it's something that just has to be accepted. I don't have a problem with that and I'm quite happy - I do have a problem however with people telling me I've just given up etc after trying my damnedest.

With freelancing, if you want to secure a full-time position, you have to also freelance full-time. Having a 9 to 5 with a view to doing it on the side... doesn't work like that. You need to be available at all times for any shifts that come up - if you're not, they get passed on to someone else. You however were able to work full-time and develop your businesses on the side.

Sent freelance article after freelance article, idea after idea and nothing (apart from the very occasional publishing). Still doing it on the side - much the same. I have also built up plenty of contacts. Again, when the opportunities are that limited (due to both a lack of supply and an overwhelming abundance of demand) you move on. And that's fine.

You haven't read such complaints "for years" - considering I only started posting in relation to it last year (at the earliest). There was a period early this year when I had given up freelance (and was very happy with that decision) but I wanted to get admin work in media companies and was applying for actual advertised vacancies but having no luck, so I used this forum to let off steam...


I'm not saying the determination etc you mention isn't enough to get you anything you want in SOME areas, but definitely not in all. Hollywood actor/actress - there's another one.

the media industry in Ireland though is an extreme...and I mean extreme, clique---hence the crappiness of programming on tv and radio, newspapers are meh too except the Times. You probably would have broken into it by now if you were based in another country. Larger population---more opportunities.

Dudess

Apparently it's not that different in London
Nah, there are jobs in the media, but not in the areas I want to get into... and I'm not complaining. I'm just saying though that if I could have my dream job, it would be music presenting and writing... No harm in trying to break into that - which I did - but it's not defeatist to grow tired of that life and take a more mundane job.
In an ideal world we'd all be doing something we adore, but that's not the reality sadly. However a job with nice people, all right money, great hours, relaxed atmosphere, the chance to further your education etc isn't a bad alternative - even if it's not the most interesting job in the world - and that's what I have.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I dunno. Whenever you talk about not having a full-time writing career your posts have a tone of acceptance that that's the way it's going to be. I just find that mentality hard to understand because I am a persistent mofo.

That's highly likely the way it's going to be, therefore reasonably well paid office job is the practical alternative, rather than being on the dole and writing articles all day in the hope they might get published/waiting around for phone calls from radio stations and getting into their bad books and reducing the chance of being called again, if unavailable to take a shift at 7am the next day (due to e.g. a funeral :rolleyes:).

AARRRGH wrote: »

Good move on the PhD though. I plan the same.

Cheers Dublindude (I can't bring myself to call you AARRRGH ). I would love to teach at 3rd level, or a 2nd level college (along the lines of Ballyfermot) so I'm gonna go for it. Again, not an easy area to break into, but I'm gonna give it a shot anyway!

Climate Expert

but I plan to do it part-time over a longer period and will endeavor to minimise its impact to existing personal and professional plans and commitments.

No chance of that happening. It will eat up your life. A proper PhD will take 4-5 years full time. And for what? To have this dream to teach crap to some students for 50K a year? What a joke.

Dudess

Sounds all right to me...

Climate Expert

Dudess wrote: »

Sounds all right to me...

I used to be into the idea as well as an undergrad. A few years working in Science Dept. knocked it out of me fairly sharp. The academic world is a weird place.

AARRRGH

Climate Expert wrote: »

The academic world is a weird place.

And the corporate world isn't...? Where I work could be a reality show...

Dreamers always end up crashing around their mid 30s when they fail. Not everybody can be a tv presenter, rock star, footaller etc. No amount of believing in yourself will change that. I would actually say it is a dangerous thing as you need to keep a bit of perspective on yourself.

You remind me of that young geeky lad that spend 100ks on launching his rap music career because of his belief in his self. Thanks to Tony Quinn of course.

But there's a difference between people who are genuinely talented and people who are deluded. I can't sing, so the chances of me becoming the next Whitney are practically nil. The talent just isn't there. But I do have, for example, a lot of natural ability with languages, and the idea of becoming an interpreter for the UN is pretty realistic. I have the grades to back it up, references from lecturers, work experience, and so on. I believe that if I really, really wanted to become an interpreter for the UN, I could make it happen. I believe that if I really wanted to get into presenting, I could make it happen with a lot of hard work and perseverence. I know so many people who have great jobs and love their jobs, so it doesn't seem overly far fetched to me.

Some people are cut out for mundane jobs. They spend all day fixing margins on letters, typing numbers into a column and arguing with dodgy printers, and can go home at the end of the day satisfied.
The rest of us aren't. We manage a week before we say, "What good is this? A trained monkey could do it.".

Exactly. That's how it feels. I just can't do the secretary thing. I'm not knocking it at all, but it's really not for me. I don't mind bad pay, bad hours, whatever, but I need to go out of the door feeling like I've done something, whether it's taught someone a new word in English class or helped someone out on a helpline, anything. There is nothing more unfulfilling than doing the same thing over and over. Finish typing up a letter, then a new one lands on your desk. It's brutal. It always amuses me when people call you stupid if you make a little mistake - surely stupid people would excel at such mundane tasks. It's so boring that I couldn't care less about it. I have a friend from college who plans to spend the rest of her life in admin/reception, she loves the handy hours and being able to spend the day surfing the net and reading magazines. Each to their own I suppose.

Dudess

[quote=[Deleted User];57665293]I believe that if I really wanted to get into presenting, I could make it happen with a lot of hard work and perseverence.[/QUOTE]
Sorry Izzy but you've got to have a level of realism. I know that industry well, there is no guarantee you will get a presenting job just because you believe you can do it. That is delusional frankly. I'm not saying it's impossible, but believing in yourself and being super determined are not always enough for that industry. There are very few jobs, there are MANY people going for them - all with as much determination and self belief as each other; some with more contacts then others.

The interpreter thing, I don't know - maybe there is more of a likelihood of that happening.

You know the industry here. IF I wanted to present, I'd be prepared to move practically anywhere to do it. I'd be prepared to give up practically everything else to do it. You said yourself you weren't prepared to give up your social life/money/security to freelance - there are plenty of people who ARE prepared to do that which puts them further ahead of you in the line. Obviously just hard work alone isn't going to cut it - you also need the rest (personality, experience, looks/figure if you're going to be on TV) that goes without saying. To be honest, the guy I know in RTE didn't exactly kill himself to get there - he's just very talented, confident and reliable. Same with my friend on the national newspaper. It can be done.

Dudess

[quote=[Deleted User];57666006]You know the industry here. IF I wanted to present, I'd be prepared to move practically anywhere to do it. I'd be prepared to give up practically everything else to do it. You said yourself you weren't prepared to give up your social life/money/security to freelance - there are plenty of people who ARE prepared to do that which puts them further ahead of you in the line.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between being prepared to do it and being able to stick it out though. I too was prepared to do it, but after a while I couldn't stick it anymore. It can be a dreadfully lonely life. The romantic notion is that you "get out there"... no you don't. You're stuck at home trying to get editors interested in articles/ideas, your friends are at work.

To be honest, the guy I know in RTE didn't exactly kill himself to get there - he's just very talented, confident and reliable. Same with my friend on the national newspaper. It can be done.

Sure it can be done. It's not guaranteed though - no matter how much determination and self belief you have.

I'm not saying you shouldn't go for it though - you should definitely go for it - I'm just saying it's an extremely tough industry to get into. The message fed to people that they can do anything they want if they believe enough, is naive bullsh1t.

There's a difference between being prepared to do it and being able to stick it out though. I too was prepared to do it, but after a while I couldn't stick it anymore.

Well yes, obviously, you do have to actually do it. How long were you doing it for?

Sure it can be done. It's not guaranteed though - no matter how much determination and self belief you have.

Nothing is guaranteed but I still don't believe it's as close to impossible as you say. If it were, I wouldn't personally know so many people doing it. I know more people in creative jobs than I do in office jobs. I'm not saying everyone can become rich and famous but I do believe that it's possible to have *something* of your dream job, even if it isn't your full time gig.

Dudess

[quote=[Deleted User];57666460]Well yes, obviously, you do have to actually do it. How long were you doing it for?[/QUOTE]
Five years part-time, two years full-time.

If it were, I wouldn't personally know so many people doing it. I know more people in creative jobs than I do in office jobs.

I'm talking about media specifically now, not creative jobs in general.

I'm not saying everyone can become rich and famous but I do believe that it's possible to have *something* of your dream job, even if it isn't your full time gig.

Y'see, you're shifting to something different now - initially full-time work is what was being focused on. The argument was it's crap to be stuck in a full-time office job, I debated that by saying sometimes there's little or no choice. I didn't say it's not possible to do stuff on the side.

newestUser

[quote=[Deleted User];57666006]IF I wanted to present, I'd be prepared to move practically anywhere to do it. I'd be prepared to give up practically everything else to do it. [/QUOTE]

With all respect Izzy (and btw, I have every sympathy for your original problem of working with corporate knobends) saying you're prepared to make sacrifices, and actually making those sacrifices are worlds apart. Dudess is the voice of experience here on this issue.

AARRRGH

You know, I was offered a job as a presenter on AA roadwatch. I turned it down, but I'm sure I could have used it as a stepping stone into a better presenting job. And I have no interest in presenting.

There is always a way to get what you want... you just have to make it happen. Unfortunately most people are waiting for their dreams to happen without making much effort.

Dudess

AARRRGH wrote: »

You know, I was offered a job as a presenter on AA roadwatch. I turned it down, but I'm sure I could have used it as a stepping stone into a better presenting job.

Sorry, you're "sure"? What makes you sure? The jobs have to exist in the first place. I had numerous researcher jobs in both local and national radio and some were crappy but I too used them as stepping stones.
And if you've no interest in presenting... well that in itself is gonna impede you.

There is always a way to get what you want... you just have to make it happen. Unfortunately most people are waiting for their dreams to happen without making much effort.

There isn't always a way to get what you want - that implies you'll definitely get it, even if you've got mountains of talent. You won't definitely get it... it's dreaming to think you will. That does not mean I think you definitely won't get it either, but there is a strong likelihood you won't and you really have to bear that in mind.

With all respect Izzy (and btw, I have every sympathy for your original problem of working with corporate knobends) saying you're prepared to make sacrifices, and actually making those sacrifices are worlds apart. Dudess is the voice of experience here on this issue.

With all respect, I have made sacrifices and will continue to do so. I've moved abroad 3 or 4 times for jobs, and they weren't even career boosting jobs, just for experience. I'm most likely going to have to move to Madrid on my own in the next few months for work and after that to Brussels. I've already left my family in another country and I'll be leaving my boyfriend here. So please don't act like I'm all talk on this issue. I understand that to do what I want to do, staying in Ireland is a total waste of time. Some of my friends did the same college course as me and are refusing to move abroad - well there are hardly any jobs here in that field, so they might think they are trying their best, but really moving away is one of the number one requirements. If they were serious, they'd do it. But they want their family, car, spare money for drinking/holidays etc. You can't have it all. If I wanted to work as a presenter and there was very little going here, I'd move anywhere I might have a better shot, and that isn't just talk. I've done it before.

newestUser

In Fever Pitch, Nick Hornby writes about how talent and ambition aren't necessarily always going to see you reach your goals. He talks of being a young writer, sticking up motivational post-its around him with quotes along the lines of 'you've got talent kid, and motivation, and you'll make it' blahblahblah. He cringes when he thinks back to that time, and points out the case of a crap footballer called Gus Caesar who was miiiiiiiiiiles better than 99.999% of the population at football, dedicated his life to reaching the top of the football tree, and still fell short. Even though Nick Hornby is very successful, Fever Pitch was his first book, so when he wrote it, he was a thirty something depressive starving in a garret in London somewhere, and had been trying to 'make it' as a writer for quite some time.

IMO, saying 'I can make a reasonable living presenting on TV' is as realistic, perhaps less so, than 'I can be a professional footballer'.

IMO, saying 'I can do *anything* I want, if I want it bad enough' is Apprentice-style chest-beating. Assuming that you *could* be a successful businessman/singer/film maker/whatever, you just haven't got around to it, is naive in the extreme.

Like the Rolling Stones said, you don't always get what you want.

Dudess is talking sense. The rest of ye must be off your t!ts on coke.

AARRRGH

Dudess wrote: »

Sorry, you're "sure"? What makes you sure? The jobs have to exist in the first place. I had numerous researcher jobs in both local and national radio and some were crappy but I too used them as stepping stones.

The reason I'm "sure" is because I know me, and I know I would have made the right contacts to get what I wanted.

Also, (sorry for the cheesiness) but "I think outside the box" and use my own initiative to stand out from the crowd. I'm also not talentless, which helps...

Dudess wrote: »

There isn't always a way to get what you want - that implies you'll definitely get it, even if you've got mountains of talent. You won't definitely get it... it's dreaming to think you will.

Well, you can either use my system or your system. I'm pretty sure mine is more likely to bring you success.

Btw, I'm not living in fantasy land - I know I won't accomplish all my dreams, but I'm going to accomplish a lot of them, while making sure I tried my hardest to accomplish the rest. That means not doing a half arsed job and resigning myself to an average life like Climate Expert suggests.

IMO, saying 'I can do *anything* I want, if I want it bad enough' is Apprentice-style chest-beating. Assuming that you *could* be a successful businessman/singer/film maker/whatever, you just haven't got around to it, is naive in the extreme.

That isn't what anyone is saying. Over 99% of people don't have the ability to do those jobs in the first place. I'm talking about the ones who DO have the talent/experience/ambition/looks as opposed to being deluded. I'm sure Dudess knows by now if she honestly has the standard required to be a professional writer. People in these fields don't hesitate to give their opinions. I have NO idea why yous all think this is SO impossible, as I said, I know people acting on TV programmes, I know a couple of models, sure people told them they'd never make it in those careers and they did, and they're all under 25. I was in college with a girl who was Miss Ireland, she didn't think 'ha there's no chance, I won't even enter'. She's had a ton of opportunities to be on TV. It goes without saying that you need the talent to start with.

AARRRGH

[quote=[Deleted User];57669528]It goes without saying that you need the talent to start with.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I assumed people knew I wasn't saying a cripple is going to be the next super model, or a mute is going to be the next rock star. I'm talking about dreams within your area of talent/expertise (or, for example, if you're a great people person you can use your networking skills to make things happen.)

I just find the whole "give up and be like every other zombie" mentality so depressing.