Hate office/corporate culture

There's a difference between being prepared to do it and being able to stick it out though. I too was prepared to do it, but after a while I couldn't stick it anymore.

Well yes, obviously, you do have to actually do it. How long were you doing it for?

Sure it can be done. It's not guaranteed though - no matter how much determination and self belief you have.

Nothing is guaranteed but I still don't believe it's as close to impossible as you say. If it were, I wouldn't personally know so many people doing it. I know more people in creative jobs than I do in office jobs. I'm not saying everyone can become rich and famous but I do believe that it's possible to have *something* of your dream job, even if it isn't your full time gig.

Dudess

[quote=[Deleted User];57666460]Well yes, obviously, you do have to actually do it. How long were you doing it for?[/QUOTE]
Five years part-time, two years full-time.

If it were, I wouldn't personally know so many people doing it. I know more people in creative jobs than I do in office jobs.

I'm talking about media specifically now, not creative jobs in general.

I'm not saying everyone can become rich and famous but I do believe that it's possible to have *something* of your dream job, even if it isn't your full time gig.

Y'see, you're shifting to something different now - initially full-time work is what was being focused on. The argument was it's crap to be stuck in a full-time office job, I debated that by saying sometimes there's little or no choice. I didn't say it's not possible to do stuff on the side.

newestUser

[quote=[Deleted User];57666006]IF I wanted to present, I'd be prepared to move practically anywhere to do it. I'd be prepared to give up practically everything else to do it. [/QUOTE]

With all respect Izzy (and btw, I have every sympathy for your original problem of working with corporate knobends) saying you're prepared to make sacrifices, and actually making those sacrifices are worlds apart. Dudess is the voice of experience here on this issue.

AARRRGH

You know, I was offered a job as a presenter on AA roadwatch. I turned it down, but I'm sure I could have used it as a stepping stone into a better presenting job. And I have no interest in presenting.

There is always a way to get what you want... you just have to make it happen. Unfortunately most people are waiting for their dreams to happen without making much effort.

Dudess

AARRRGH wrote: »

You know, I was offered a job as a presenter on AA roadwatch. I turned it down, but I'm sure I could have used it as a stepping stone into a better presenting job.

Sorry, you're "sure"? What makes you sure? The jobs have to exist in the first place. I had numerous researcher jobs in both local and national radio and some were crappy but I too used them as stepping stones.
And if you've no interest in presenting... well that in itself is gonna impede you.

There is always a way to get what you want... you just have to make it happen. Unfortunately most people are waiting for their dreams to happen without making much effort.

There isn't always a way to get what you want - that implies you'll definitely get it, even if you've got mountains of talent. You won't definitely get it... it's dreaming to think you will. That does not mean I think you definitely won't get it either, but there is a strong likelihood you won't and you really have to bear that in mind.

With all respect Izzy (and btw, I have every sympathy for your original problem of working with corporate knobends) saying you're prepared to make sacrifices, and actually making those sacrifices are worlds apart. Dudess is the voice of experience here on this issue.

With all respect, I have made sacrifices and will continue to do so. I've moved abroad 3 or 4 times for jobs, and they weren't even career boosting jobs, just for experience. I'm most likely going to have to move to Madrid on my own in the next few months for work and after that to Brussels. I've already left my family in another country and I'll be leaving my boyfriend here. So please don't act like I'm all talk on this issue. I understand that to do what I want to do, staying in Ireland is a total waste of time. Some of my friends did the same college course as me and are refusing to move abroad - well there are hardly any jobs here in that field, so they might think they are trying their best, but really moving away is one of the number one requirements. If they were serious, they'd do it. But they want their family, car, spare money for drinking/holidays etc. You can't have it all. If I wanted to work as a presenter and there was very little going here, I'd move anywhere I might have a better shot, and that isn't just talk. I've done it before.

newestUser

In Fever Pitch, Nick Hornby writes about how talent and ambition aren't necessarily always going to see you reach your goals. He talks of being a young writer, sticking up motivational post-its around him with quotes along the lines of 'you've got talent kid, and motivation, and you'll make it' blahblahblah. He cringes when he thinks back to that time, and points out the case of a crap footballer called Gus Caesar who was miiiiiiiiiiles better than 99.999% of the population at football, dedicated his life to reaching the top of the football tree, and still fell short. Even though Nick Hornby is very successful, Fever Pitch was his first book, so when he wrote it, he was a thirty something depressive starving in a garret in London somewhere, and had been trying to 'make it' as a writer for quite some time.

IMO, saying 'I can make a reasonable living presenting on TV' is as realistic, perhaps less so, than 'I can be a professional footballer'.

IMO, saying 'I can do *anything* I want, if I want it bad enough' is Apprentice-style chest-beating. Assuming that you *could* be a successful businessman/singer/film maker/whatever, you just haven't got around to it, is naive in the extreme.

Like the Rolling Stones said, you don't always get what you want.

Dudess is talking sense. The rest of ye must be off your t!ts on coke.

AARRRGH

Dudess wrote: »

Sorry, you're "sure"? What makes you sure? The jobs have to exist in the first place. I had numerous researcher jobs in both local and national radio and some were crappy but I too used them as stepping stones.

The reason I'm "sure" is because I know me, and I know I would have made the right contacts to get what I wanted.

Also, (sorry for the cheesiness) but "I think outside the box" and use my own initiative to stand out from the crowd. I'm also not talentless, which helps...

Dudess wrote: »

There isn't always a way to get what you want - that implies you'll definitely get it, even if you've got mountains of talent. You won't definitely get it... it's dreaming to think you will.

Well, you can either use my system or your system. I'm pretty sure mine is more likely to bring you success.

Btw, I'm not living in fantasy land - I know I won't accomplish all my dreams, but I'm going to accomplish a lot of them, while making sure I tried my hardest to accomplish the rest. That means not doing a half arsed job and resigning myself to an average life like Climate Expert suggests.

IMO, saying 'I can do *anything* I want, if I want it bad enough' is Apprentice-style chest-beating. Assuming that you *could* be a successful businessman/singer/film maker/whatever, you just haven't got around to it, is naive in the extreme.

That isn't what anyone is saying. Over 99% of people don't have the ability to do those jobs in the first place. I'm talking about the ones who DO have the talent/experience/ambition/looks as opposed to being deluded. I'm sure Dudess knows by now if she honestly has the standard required to be a professional writer. People in these fields don't hesitate to give their opinions. I have NO idea why yous all think this is SO impossible, as I said, I know people acting on TV programmes, I know a couple of models, sure people told them they'd never make it in those careers and they did, and they're all under 25. I was in college with a girl who was Miss Ireland, she didn't think 'ha there's no chance, I won't even enter'. She's had a ton of opportunities to be on TV. It goes without saying that you need the talent to start with.

AARRRGH

[quote=[Deleted User];57669528]It goes without saying that you need the talent to start with.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I assumed people knew I wasn't saying a cripple is going to be the next super model, or a mute is going to be the next rock star. I'm talking about dreams within your area of talent/expertise (or, for example, if you're a great people person you can use your networking skills to make things happen.)

I just find the whole "give up and be like every other zombie" mentality so depressing.

Climate Expert

I just find the whole "give up and be like every other zombie" mentality so depressing.

Its not. Its very liberating actually. Being ambitious within a more probable reality means less dissapointment. Having your hobbies that you love and pursuing them not as possible careers.
People who are absolutely driven generally aren't the happiest bunch. Just ask Johnny Wilkonson.

AARRRGH

Climate Expert wrote: »

People who are absolutely driven generally aren't the happiest bunch.

I'm a very happy person, and I like me, and you know what? In a few years I'll be able to give up work forever. I have no business training (in fact, I'd admit I'm a fairly ****ty businessman) but my refusal to accept a life of paychecks has gotten me very far.

Why don't you believe you are capable of rising above mediocrity?

newestUser

[quote=[Deleted User];57669330]With all respect, I have made sacrifices and will continue to do so. I've moved abroad 3 or 4 times for jobs, and they weren't even career boosting jobs, just for experience. [/QUOTE]

Were those J1/ summer jobs/ erasmus?

[quote=[Deleted User];57669330]I'm most likely going to have to move to Madrid on my own in the next few months for work and after that to Brussels. I've already left my family in another country and I'll be leaving my boyfriend here. So please don't act like I'm all talk on this issue. [/QUOTE]

Well congrats for picking up on where I'm coming from. I'm in a country where 3 months ago I knew no-one, to take advantage of career opportunities that aren't available in Ireland. There's a lot of self-aggrandising people in Ireland who happened to be living through a fortuitous set of circumstances and have had a lot fall into their lap, but who wouldn't dream of moving apart from what's familiar, friends, family, etc. if success in their career demanded it.

And, you haven't gone to Madrid or Brussels yet. Best of luck with it though. It's not an unreasonable move (now, if you were going to London to get your own show on the BBC, that'd be a different story!), hope it works out well for you and you have a great time.

Nobody's saying that succeeding in glamorous, exciting careers is impossible, but trying to is very risky. Zombie-like acceptance of wage-slavery irks me too, but uber-optimistic plans for the future with little thought given to the possibility of failure, or the magnitude of sacrifice required, are irritating too.

Are these the people David McWilliams was writing about in the Pope's Children? 'I can do anything! I can have anything! Brad Pitt should play me in a film about my life'!

Also, what are people defining as successful? Your mate won a beauty pageant. She got offered a few appearances on TV. That's unlikely to be putting food on her table 10 years from now.

Climate Expert

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm a very happy person, and I like me, and you know what? In a few years I'll be able to give up work forever. I have no business training (in fact, I'd admit I'm a fairly ****ty businessman) but my refusal to accept a life of paychecks has gotten me very far.

Why don't you believe you are capable of rising above mediocrity?

I'm far from mediocre myself but I won't be touching the stars with fame and fortune. I made a bit of a go with music and they like but nothing serious. Just to have a good time doing things and I just keep it as my hobby now. I djed in a few clubs and on radio but I've always kept it fairly casual. Same as sport.

If everybody in society was depressed about being mediocre or not at the top 1% we'd be in trouble. People should accept their lot in life.

AARRRGH

Fair enough.

I personally find my ambition makes me happy - I love trying to make a go of things (I'm an eternal optimist though.)

Perhaps I'm just different than the average person.

Were those J1/ summer jobs/ erasmus?

Most of them, no. But so what if they were? When you're in college for 4 years, it's hard to move abroad for any great length of time. A hell of a lot of people just stay in Ireland every summer or go backpacking in Thailand.

And, you haven't gone to Madrid or Brussels yet. Best of luck with it though. It's not an unreasonable move (now, if you were going to London to get your own show on the BBC, that'd be a different story!), hope it works out well for you and you have a great time.

It's a ladder. Nobody moves to London to get their own show on the BBC with no experience. But it's entirely realistic that I could start off on a radio show for expats in Madrid or Barcelona (got the connections, could start tomorrow if I wanted), then after a few years, get a slot on a TV show, then after about 10 years of moving up, get something half decent. That's what you do, unless you happen to win the X Factor.

Also, what are people defining as successful? Your mate won a beauty pageant. She got offered a few appearances on TV. That's unlikely to be putting food on her table 10 years from now.

She's not as successful as those in the media or RTE because she didn't 'work' for it as such. But her getting herself known to the media is a HUGE stepping stone for the career she wants. She's already done a bit of presenting etc.

It's hilarious because I'm usually the Debbie Downer, but I'd never just resign myself to a life of working in an office because I didn't think I could ever do any better.

Climate Expert

This is for you Izzy. Brooker nails it again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyg2a72uV4&feature=related

So I suppose my friends working as artists, in RTE, on newspapers, as actors (every single one of them was a poor student when I met them) were all just born under a lucky star then, eh? :rolleyes:

Climate Expert

Well if its RTE then they are obviously born into the right family.

newestUser

[quote=[Deleted User];57669993]Most of them, no. But so what if they were? When you're in college for 4 years, it's hard to move abroad for any great length of time. A hell of a lot of people just stay in Ireland every summer or go backpacking in Thailand.[/QUOTE]

Working abroad in a graduate role is a *completely* different kettle of fish than working in a J1. As you are finding out, the working world can be a horrible place. How would you like working in a cold, unfriendly, bitchy environment, as you are now, but in a country where you know absolutely *no-one*? There's no shoulder to cry on, no friends to bitch about your colleagues with, no social life to give a bit of balance to your life...it's *hard*. Life as a working stiff *can* be (but by no means is always) lonely, isolating, frustrating, mundane, whereas life as a travelling student is comparatively sweet.

As I said, best of luck with the potential move to Madrid/Brussels, at least you've got some experience of working in an awful place, so you'll hopefully be able to avoid similar experiences abroad!


[quote=[Deleted User];57669993]
It's a ladder. Nobody moves to London to get their own show on the BBC with no experience. But it's entirely realistic that I could start off on a radio show for expats in Madrid or Barcelona (got the connections, could start tomorrow if I wanted), then after a few years, get a slot on a TV show, then after about 10 years of moving up, get something half decent. That's what you do, unless you happen to win the X Factor.
[/QUOTE]

Ah seriously Izzy, would ye stop? The scenario you're describing is possible, but *highly* unlikely. If it's that simple, why doesn't every media wannabe have their own show by the age of 35/40?

[quote=[Deleted User];57669993]
She's not as successful as those in the media or RTE because she didn't 'work' for it as such. But her getting herself known to the media is a HUGE stepping stone for the career she wants. She's already done a bit of presenting etc.
[/QUOTE]

Media/PR/modelling whatever isn't my forte. But I suspect that getting a bit of media exposure is not the massive step towards establishing herself in the media that you make it out to be.

[quote=[Deleted User];57669993]
It's hilarious because I'm usually the Debbie Downer, but I'd never just resign myself to a life of working in an office because I didn't think I could ever do any better.[/QUOTE]

What's wrong with working in an office? What would you define as better? If you were working as a UN translator in some office in Brussels translating documents on trade tariffs on sugar beet from German to French, would you be happy with that?

Mr. Incognito

Absolutely NO-ONE could ever be happy tying crap into a computer all day long.

We've been raised by our parents and society to believe that these midless office jobs were clean and financially secure.

I guess it's a hangover from the time when people were out labouring all day long. it's a damn sight better than a coal mine anyway.

If you're ambitious, in an office environment to suceed you have to be either brilliant or cut-throat or both. We're the enlightened celtic tiger kids chasing money instead of self fullfillment.

The people that put nurse, or teacher on their CEO are the one's who are probably truly happy and I hear people look down their noses at such careers.

Now we finish college, travel the world and settle down to a life of mundane- tap tap tap, till we knocck the wife up and she lives in mothercare for a year with her pregnant mates, complain about the same things over coffee every morning for 30 years, get fat and die on the golf course lurking our girth from hole to hole.

My parents were hippies from the States who travelled all across America and settled in Ireland on social welfare. I grew up on that and it motivated me to qualify as a tax consultant and a solicitor working in the big name firms, and you know what- you can't win either way. Sure- you have money, but the quality of life?

The secret is accepting that working to live is just that. Take time for yourself when you're away from the office- surf, travel, hike, excercise, get hammered, visit long lost friends. 99% of people can hate their jobs but it's a means to an end if it gives you the freedom to do the things you love.

You'll never have it all. Life isn't Disneyland. Just find out the things that make you happy and repeat as often as possible.

Working abroad in a graduate role is a *completely* different kettle of fish than working in a J1. As you are finding out, the working world can be a horrible place. How would you like working in a cold, unfriendly, bitchy environment, as you are now, but in a country where you know absolutely *no-one*? There's no shoulder to cry on, no friends to bitch about your colleagues with, no social life to give a bit of balance to your life...it's *hard*.

Please stop assuming I've had some cushy J1 job. I moved abroad right after finishing my degree. And the summer jobs I've had, I went alone, they weren't college placements. I've worked in French hotels/restaurants/kitchens, been treated like a dogsbody and outsider. It was harder than any office job, but if I had decided to go into food/catering as a career, that would have been the first step.

Why do you think you're some amazing person who has made a huge step and I'm a student who's had 'pretend' cushy summer jobs?

Ah seriously Izzy, would ye stop? The scenario you're describing is possible, but *highly* unlikely. If it's that simple, why doesn't every media wannabe have their own show by the age of 35/40?

No talent? Don't have the looks? No connections? Gave up? Never wanted their own show? Other things were more important?

What's wrong with working in an office? What would you define as better? If you were working as a UN translator in some office in Brussels translating documents on trade tariffs on sugar beet from German to French, would you be happy with that?

I personally would, yes, I love languages and translating. It wouldn't be 'settling' for me. A job as a translator, teaching English classes on the side would be one of my 'realistic' options if I never made it as an interpreter. People here are talking about settling - going for a job that has nothing to do with their dream career because it's reachable and secure.

Dudess

This is getting exasperating. I'm getting frustrated at being frankly talked down to by people who don't know what they're talking about and who are making assumptions about my ability and what I have done to try and achieve my dream career (a LOT).
[quote=[Deleted User];57669330]With all respect, I have made sacrifices and will continue to do so. I've moved abroad 3 or 4 times for jobs, and they weren't even career boosting jobs, just for experience. I'm most likely going to have to move to Madrid on my own in the next few months for work and after that to Brussels. I've already left my family in another country and I'll be leaving my boyfriend here. So please don't act like I'm all talk on this issue. I understand that to do what I want to do, staying in Ireland is a total waste of time. Some of my friends did the same college course as me and are refusing to move abroad - well there are hardly any jobs here in that field, so they might think they are trying their best, but really moving away is one of the number one requirements. If they were serious, they'd do it. But they want their family, car, spare money for drinking/holidays etc. You can't have it all. If I wanted to work as a presenter and there was very little going here, I'd move anywhere I might have a better shot, and that isn't just talk. I've done it before.[/QUOTE]
Nobody is disputing that, what is quite the strong likelihood though... is, if you don't make it (not a guarantee but a strong likelihood) after five years of doing freelance shifts which entails big gaps in the middle and not being treated very well, you will start to get sick of all the sacrifice-making and the missing out and you may decide "right, I've given it a shot, time to move on" and that is NOT resigning yourself to mediocrity, that is being practical.
Also, I didn't want to say this because I know it's annoying, but frankly it's relevant: you are very young. You don't know what you will feel like when you are 30 and you will want a mortgage and stability in life. I'm not saying I'm a wise old woman either, but the years between even 25/26 and 30 see a lot of changes in your point of view - and I'm not particularly a conformist.

AARRRGH wrote: »

The reason I'm "sure" is because I know me, and I know I would have made the right contacts to get what I wanted.

The right strategy sure... still does not guarantee a great presenting job, or even just any presenting job. You might get one show a week on Sp!n. Great... but it's not a full-time job. Or you might get a full-time presenting job with RTE, but the likelihood you won't, far outweighs the likelihood you will. I'm talking basic mathematics here - those jobs barely exist. The people who want them and have the relevant talent, determination, drive, ambition, self-belief... hundreds of them.

Well, you can either use my system or your system. I'm pretty sure mine is more likely to bring you success.

My system was really no different to yours - I spent six years working towards it. And I know I have the talent to be an indie music presenter and a music/film/literature/features writer... those jobs just aren't there though. There's a handful of such jobs and they're not being vacated. Sure, I can get the bits and bobs of freelance but that's a sh1t way to live.

I know I won't accomplish all my dreams

You and Izzy keep slightly changing your points. You said anyone can achieve all their dreams (and no, I'm not including physically disabled people who want to be dancers).
[quote=[Deleted User];57669528]I'm sure Dudess knows by now if she honestly has the standard required to be a professional writer.[/QUOTE]
Yes I have. I scored firsts in feature-writing when I studied journalism. What are you implying?
I also have the voice, the communication skills, the knowledge for indie music presenting. I have received the responses to my demo advising me they were impressed but there were just no jobs!

I have NO idea why yous all think this is SO impossible

Oh Jesus Christ... NOBODY says it's impossible. It's difficult though and will not work out for everyone who wants it. Not an opinion, a fact.

I know people acting on TV programmes, I know a couple of models, sure people told them they'd never make it in those careers and they did, and they're all under 25. I was in college with a girl who was Miss Ireland, she didn't think 'ha there's no chance, I won't even enter'. She's had a ton of opportunities to be on TV. It goes without saying that you need the talent to start with.

What about all the others who busted their asses to get those jobs? All I'm saying is there's a strong possibility you could be one of those, along with the possibility you could be one of the less successful ones. Nobody is saying you shouldn't give it a shot and you'll never make it (I think you think that's what's being said). You very much SHOULD give it a shot. But don't insult your intelligence by believing the determination etc is enough.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm talking about dreams within your area of talent/expertise (or, for example, if you're a great people person you can use your networking skills to make things happen.)

Exactly. The areas of my talent/expertise also lack the jobs. So I do what I can on the side while earning money via a not so exciting job... but weren't we talking about full-time jobs?

I just find the whole "give up and be like every other zombie" mentality so depressing.

Climate Expert wrote: »

Its not. Its very liberating actually.

Absofukinglutely. I can't tell you how unhappy I was freelancing and god I was so broke... getting a 9 to 5 made me so much happier.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Why don't you believe you are capable of rising above mediocrity?

Well I don't. I just believe it's too difficult to get jobs in the areas I'd like to get them in (in fact, I'm not sure if feature-writer jobs exist actually, it's all just freelance).

newestUser wrote: »

nobody's saying that succeeding in glamorous, exciting careers is impossible, but trying to is very risky.

Well I don't know if I'd define the strong chance of it not working out as "risky" - you should still go for it.

uber-optimistic plans for the future with little thought given to the possibility of failure, or the magnitude of sacrifice required, are irritating too.

Those shouldn't stop people from pursuing their dreams though, but yes, getting sick of that is not resigning yourself to mediocrity. I find that quite insulting actually.

Climate Expert wrote: »

If everybody in society was depressed about being mediocre or not at the top 1% we'd be in trouble. People should accept their lot in life.

... and do as much interesting stuff as they can on the side.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I personally find my ambition makes me happy - I love trying to make a go of things (I'm an eternal optimist though.)

Perhaps I'm just different than the average person.

Me too. You're implying I never gave it a shot. Six years, dublindude, six years. It's a long time.
[quote=[Deleted User];57669993]It's a ladder. Nobody moves to London to get their own show on the BBC with no experience.[/QUOTE]
Eh... I know. Where did anyone say that? You could move to the BBC with five years' experience presenting on Today FM and still no show for the BBC.

But it's entirely realistic that I could start off on a radio show for expats in Madrid or Barcelona (got the connections, could start tomorrow if I wanted), then after a few years, get a slot on a TV show, then after about 10 years of moving up, get something half decent.

It is of course realistic, but not guaranteed. And if it didn't work out, you wouldn't be a failure.

It's hilarious because I'm usually the Debbie Downer, but I'd never just resign myself to a life of working in an office because I didn't think I could ever do any better.

Grrr... so irritating. What about working in an office because you can't get your dream job?
[quote=[Deleted User];57670075]So I suppose my friends working as artists, in RTE, on newspapers, as actors (every single one of them was a poor student when I met them) were all just born under a lucky star then, eh? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Yup. Very lucky. Think of all the others who went for those jobs and didn't get them? If it's 500 people to one job (and that's probably being generous) and you think you can still definitely get exactly what you want with all the determination etc... you need to come down from the clouds.

Dudess

[quote=[Deleted User];57670439]No talent? Don't have the looks? No connections?[/QUOTE]
Or had all those things in spades but still didn't make it because there were hundreds of others like them and not everyone could get the show? Believe me, that is the reality.

Your lack of knowledge of the media industry and the assumptions you're making are starting to really grate now. I'm sorry.

Dudess. My original point was that there's ALWAYS a way to do what you love in some way, shape or form, be it a full time job or as a sideline. It's not all or nothing. If I was working in radio and never did get on BBC Radio 1, I'm still working in radio. I'm still doing what I want to do. I'm still happier than I would be typing letters all day. That's what I'm trying to say.

I find it irritating when people have the attitude that 'it's never going to happen', be it for themselves or for others. Dudess, I remember a few months back when you told me I was dreaming if I thought I could get a job at a certain salary with little experience. I got it. And that didn't even take much effort. No, it doesn't always happen for everyone, but if you don't try, it's definitely not going to happen. None of my friends just got handed a job at the Irish Times or RTE while they were changing margins on letters in some office.

newestUser

[quote=[Deleted User];57670439]Please stop assuming I've had some cushy J1 job. I moved abroad right after finishing my degree. And the summer jobs I've had, I went alone, they weren't college placements. I've worked in French hotels/restaurants/kitchens, been treated like a dogsbody and outsider. It was harder than any office job, but if I had decided to go into food/catering as a career, that would have been the first step.

Why do you think you're some amazing person who has made a huge step and I'm a student who's had 'pretend' cushy summer jobs?
[/QUOTE]

I don't care for the tone you're speaking to me in. From your first reply to my posts, you have been spikey and defensive, mimicking me ('With all respect...'), bossy ('Please don't tell me...')...

...stop throwing a strop just because I don't see things the same way you do. I'm a few years older than you, I've lived abroad for work before (and am living abroad for work now), you're not the first 22/23 year old I've met who's thought they'd be happy building a career abroad because they enjoyed a few summers abroad, I thought I'd highlight some of the potential pitfalls. I've been supportive of your desire to work abroad as a translator and wished you well, and because I think that you're being unrealistic about how one would go about getting a job in the media, I'm some arrogant fvcker who thinks he's amazing just because he got on a plane to go to work instead of a bus? That's totally unfair.

Please.

Dudess

[quote=[Deleted User];57670601]My original point was that there's ALWAYS a way to do what you love in some way, shape or form, be it a full time job or as a sideline. It's not all or nothing.[/QUOTE]
Where did I say that? Of course it's not all or nothing and of course you can present community radio, dj, write articles etc on the side. But they're not your career - isn't that what we were talking about?
And then sometimes you have to take a more mundane job (if there are no jobs in your dream field) but you sweeten that by doing the interesting stuff on the side.

If I was working in radio and never did get on BBC Radio 1, I'm still working in radio. I'm still doing what I want to do. I'm still happier than I would be typing letters all day.

Of course - who disputed that? But the problem is, you may not get the radio job, or you might just get part-time work in radio. I'm not even talking about BBC.
And then you've the lack of money to contend with, the lack of security (any idea of the shelf life of most presenters? It ain't much. Please don't cite Gerry Ryan etc. These are exceptions). After a while, the typing job in a good organisation with more money, security, a pension, advancement opportunities etc becomes very attractive.

I find it irritating when people have the attitude that 'it's never going to happen', be it for themselves or for others.

Sigh... Nobody says it's never going to happen or you shouldn't go for it, it's just not realistic to think determination will get it for you. I know, I'm being a broken record at this stage.

Dudess, I remember a few months back when you told me I was dreaming if I thought I could get a job at a certain salary with little experience.

I did not say you were dreaming, that implies I was being derogatory and I remember being very supportive on that thread. I just said the average starting salary for someone just starting out in administration is in the low 20s.

I got it. And that didn't even take much effort.

You were very lucky.

No, it doesn't always happen for everyone, but if you don't try, it's definitely not going to happen.

Christ... How many times do I have to say I tried my damnedest? How many?

None of my friends just got handed a job at the Irish Times or RTE while they were changing margins on letters in some office.

Well yeah... obviously. Who has disputed that? And earlier on you were talking about friends of yours who didn't have to try that hard. Which is it?
It's as if you think my story was: I wanted to be a writer and presenter but didn't bother trying for it because I didn't think it would happen so I just took a crappy office job. Insulting to say the least.

And also, I haven't just resigned myself to any old office job. I'm working for an organisation with lots of opportunities for advancement and further education, which I intend to take advantage of.

spinandscribble

this is clearly a issue of personal interest to everyone involved. everyone chill out you're all at different ages and experiences so of course you're going to grate on eachother. dudess you tried at the media thing and you havn't made a full time thing outa it due to the specific area you're interested in being small in this country. bad buzz but you're happy and have found other things that have made you happy. wizzy you're spreading your net very wide at a young age and hoping to catch something, well done for having the courage but please have a back up plan.

i think you're all saying the same thing really and have common ground.

AARRRGH

spinandscribble wrote: »

i think you're all saying the same thing really and have common ground.

Maybe. I think we should agree to disagree at least...

Personally, I think when you stop trying is when you fail. That sums up what I've been trying to say.

Dudess

Please stop insulting me. Thanks.

ntlbell

Dudess wrote: »

it's just not realistic to think determination will get it for you. I know, I'm being a broken record at this stage.

Christ... How many times do I have to say I tried my damnedest? How many?

And also, I haven't just resigned myself to any old office job. I'm working for an organisation with lots of opportunities for advancement and further education, which I intend to take advantage of.

If you don't believe that determination will get you what you want what else is there only luck?

I'm sure I've said it before but from the little I know about you I don't think you did try I don't think you put your heart and soul into getting to where you wanted to go people don't give up on a dream before the 30 can claim they gave it their all they're lying not to us but to themselves.

When you really really want something nothing and I mean nothing will get in the way of it you will find the way no matter how hard it is you just didn't want it bad enough dudess and to save a bit of grace you claim you gave it your all so your time in college doesn't like a waste of time.

Be honest with yourself, it will help you when advising others.

As Bill Cullen would say "you're not a warrior!!"

MissHoneyBun

'It's not realistic' to believe that determination will get you anywhere? Lol.
So it simply all boils down to luck then :rolleyes: When will people ever stop making excuses for their own inability?

I don't care for the tone you're speaking to me in. From your first reply to my posts, you have been spikey and defensive, mimicking me ('With all respect...'), bossy ('Please don't tell me...')...

...stop throwing a strop just because I don't see things the same way you do. I'm a few years older than you, I've lived abroad for work before (and am living abroad for work now), you're not the first 22/23 year old I've met who's thought they'd be happy building a career abroad because they enjoyed a few summers abroad, I thought I'd highlight some of the potential pitfalls. I've been supportive of your desire to work abroad as a translator and wished you well, and because I think that you're being unrealistic about how one would go about getting a job in the media, I'm some arrogant fvcker who thinks he's amazing just because he got on a plane to go to work instead of a bus? That's totally unfair.

Oh right, it's OK for YOU to use phrases like 'with all respect', but when I do it, it's rude? I'm throwing a strop whereas you're just making a point. When I work abroad, it's just a little poxy summer job, whereas yours is important. Can you not see how you come across as condescending? I'm 'abroad' right now, I'm not even Irish, so I'm not sure exactly why you're assuming I have no idea what it takes to live in another country. I'm not defensive, it just gets right on my wick when people talk to me like I'm a silly little girl with unrealistic plans. You just assumed I had only had J1 jobs without even asking me, for example.

I did not say you were dreaming, that implies I was being derogatory and I remember being very supportive on that thread. I just said the average starting salary for someone just starting out in administration is in the low 20s.

No, you weren't being derogatory, but your tone was very much that it was too much to ask and I should be happy with 21K. So I got the impression that if it had been you, you wouldn't have even applied/asked for a higher salary because you didn't think you'd get it, whereas my attitude was, you don't ask you don't get, and I got it.

You were very lucky.

You really think everything is always about luck?

Dudess

Izzy, would you try and read my posts properly. No, I don't think everything is about luck, I think luck does come into certain things. The average starting wage for someone entering administration is the low 20s... how many of us said that to you? Can we all be wrong? It's unusual to start as high as you did... ergo you were lucky.

MissHoneyBun wrote: »

'It's not realistic' to believe that determination will get you anywhere? Lol.

Yeah sure, that's exactly what I said...
As I said, it's not realistic to believe a lot of determination will definitely get you what you want when there are barely any jobs and countless people going for them. Obviously determination is necessary and there's a possibility you might get it, but anyone who says that someone who wants to e.g. present a show on BBC will get it based on determination alone is either: just saying it for the sake of argument, seriously deluded, or not very bright. My money's on number 1.

ntlbell wrote: »

If you don't believe that determination will get you what you want what else is there only luck?

What about next to no jobs in the specific field versus hundreds of people going for them? That in itself would put people off from the word go, but I had faith in myself and gave it a shot... for six years. Determination, hard work, talent, self belief… ‘fraid these aren’t enough on their own to guarantee you the very specific type of work I was keen on doing within the very specific and limited field. Sure, they’re required, and by god I had them, but they won’t guarantee you the job, unfortunately. Now if I was looking for anything at all in radio/print/TV it might be a different story but I was looking for very specific types of work and I’m not interested in, or capable of, the other stuff (business, sport… current affairs I’m interested in but not to the extent that I want to be a current affairs/news journo. I’ve a crap news sense anyway and would not like to be a news reporter).

I'm sure I've said it before but from the little I know about you I don't think you did try I don't think you put your heart and soul into getting to where you wanted to go people don't give up on a dream before the 30 can claim they gave it their all they're lying not to us but to themselves.

You have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe I didn't bust my ass for six years... the jobs aren't there, it's really simple. Sure, I could wait around for an unknown period of time (possibly years) for a vacancy to come up, and apply with the many, many others for it, while missing out on a mortgage, being able to buy what I want, go on holidays, social occasions, restaurants etc. Frankly, ya gotta get on with life.

When you really really want something nothing and I mean nothing will get in the way of it you will find the way no matter how hard it is

Get down from the clouds there ntlbell . So if your dream is to be a Hollywood actor or actress in the same bracket as Colin Farrell and you have the talent, you'll find it cuz you really want it?
That’s not the way life is and to say it is, is just being disingenuous.
Again, of course there's the possibility you'll get it but an overwhelming likelihood you won't - for very boring reasons like too many others going for it, not enough jobs, yadda yadda… Sure I’ve picked an extreme example – but you claim you can get ANYTHING you want. Now, apply that to an area where there’s a handful of full-time jobs and they’re not being vacated and countless people are going for them.
In SOME sectors (with far more jobs) yes you'll definitely get it with enough drive, but not all sectors - specifically the ones where there just aren't the jobs...

you just didn't want it bad enough dudess

Oh god I did. I can't tell you how much I did... but then the realisation hit me that there just aren't the jobs... in any country. Indie music presenter and film/music/literature/feature writer? Only a disingenuous muppet would say there are enough of those jobs around to meet demand! Or someone who doesn't have a notion what they're talking about.
Sure, there are more opportunities to just write freelance articles, which I'm doing. Can't make a living out of that alone though.
And sure, if I didn’t get anything at all, it might be an indication I didn’t try hard enough, but I actually secured freelance with national stations, just not enough to live on. And it was radio research – again, not something I was totally into but I was using it to get my foot in the door for an alternative music presenting gig.

to save a bit of grace you claim you gave it your all so your time in college doesn't like a waste of time.

Yeah, makes sense to me. Sometimes it's how life works. It's like for those who want to be actors/actresses in Hollywood, professional dancers on Broadway etc... you gotta go for it. Then if it doesn't work out, at least you gave it a shot, instead of never bothering to try at all.
Just because everything's worked out for you ntlbell doesn't give you licence to get on your high horse and look down on others.
No doubt you'll regale me with stories of hardship and struggling to get where you are... you work in I.T., not arts/cultural/media industries - slight difference in the amount of opportunities.

Be honest with yourself, it will help you when advising others.

Learn about the industry yourself. You haven't a clue what you're talking about...

I love all this talking down to me from two guys who have never worked in the industry and know nothing about it... and from a girl seven or eight years younger than me and who has also never worked in the industry.

And I'm no expert like a seasoned veteran journalist either but at least my knowledge is Grand Canyon-esque compared to that of you guys...

Please stop patronising and insulting me by telling me I'm a failure and not determined enough for not sticking with barely enough freelance work to get by, on the off chance my dream job (of which there are barely any) might come up some time in the next god-knows-how-many years... I didn’t totally “give up” anyway, I still write articles on the side and I’m involved in community radio and DJ-ing. Gonna set up a blog too. It’s just... reducing what you do to part-time rather than full-time, in radio at least, significantly decreases your chances of getting anything full-time. But I’m more into actually living rather than putting my life on hold, which is what you do as a struggling freelancer. Call me fussy, but being broke and not having a clue about your work situation from one day to the next and not knowing when, or even if, this will end… well it doesn’t exactly make for an appealing life.

Tbh, even if I did get more substantial work, it would still be freelance and I’m not sure I’d be keen on such instability.

Just livin’ in the real world and all that…

newestUser

[quote=[Deleted User];57672127]Oh right, it's OK for YOU to use phrases like 'with all respect', but when I do it, it's rude? I'm throwing a strop whereas you're just making a point. When I work abroad, it's just a little poxy summer job, whereas yours is important. Can you not see how you come across as condescending? I'm 'abroad' right now, I'm not even Irish, so I'm not sure exactly why you're assuming I have no idea what it takes to live in another country. I'm not defensive, it just gets right on my wick when people talk to me like I'm a silly little girl with unrealistic plans. You just assumed I had only had J1 jobs without even asking me, for example.[/QUOTE]

Can't we all just get along?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt over the 'with all respect' thing. Maybe I was reading too much into it. However, you should also take it easy with the J1 thing. J1 job, summer job washing pans in France, tomato tomatoe as far as the point I was making is concerned.

Also, I didn't *say* you had unrealistic plans. I said your plan of going to work in Madrid, Brussels etc. was achievable. I wished you the best of luck in it. I did say that I thought that what you considered to be a viable career path in media was going to be much, much harder than you seemed to be making out, and someone with a lot of experience in the field of media has backed me up on this point. You're being very unfair painting me out as someone who's putting you down and telling you you're being silly and unrealistic: that's a half-truth.

I'm sorry if you feel spoken down to. I should have been very careful with the way I phrased things in my posts to avoid condescension, and as I wasn't, I offer my apologies.

Dudess

[quote=[Deleted User];57672195]your tone was very much that it was too much to ask and I should be happy with 21K.[/QUOTE]
"Asking" generally doesn't come into it when it's an entry-level job. A higher salary based on what? The experience you don't have? A person in that situation is not exactly in a position to ask for a higher salary than what's being offered. I don't think any careers advisor would recommend it. If I was an employer I'd certainly find it a bit cheeky.
I did not say you should be happy - in fact I said it was crap money. I said it's just generally the reality.

So I got the impression that if it had been you, you wouldn't have even applied/asked for a higher salary because you didn't think you'd get it, whereas my attitude was, you don't ask you don't get, and I got it.

Did you ask for it or was it offered to you first off? Sure, ask for a higher salary (although I wouldn't recommend doing it at entry level). If you don't ask, you don't get. However, just asking for it, having the determination, the self belief, the sense of entitlement to it... doesn't guarantee you'll get it. But I'm not saying you shouldn't ask.

nyarlothothep

Some good posts here. Imo, life is not a status quo race. Know thyself. Let that which does not matter truly slide.

AARRRGH

nyarlothothep wrote: »

life is not a status quo race. Know thyself. Let that which does not matter truly slide.

Yoda or Picard? :P

nyarlothothep

Mostly Tyler Durden :pac:

stovelid

Depends on the job. I'm in IT and I can wear what I want, listen to headphones all day, and it's not really a look-over-your-shoulder environment. If I fancy a game of pool or play station during the day, I can do it. Thing is, I think that makes you work a bit harder, Nobody is saying do this every minute of the day. You have stuff to do and you do it on time, and well. That's all that matters.

I wouldn't like to wear a suit in fairness, but work is work. I doubt there any many jobs where some kid of conformity is required, so I can't say that the office thing bothers me. I work. I get paid. I use said money for my real life.

ntlbell

Dudess wrote: »

What about next to no jobs in the specific field versus hundreds of people going for them? That in itself would put people off from the word go, but I had faith in myself and gave it a shot... for six years.

As I said to you before you do whatever it takes if you really want it, you travel the world you do something that might lead to the big thing you don't give up and do some mundaine job after 6 years you keep pushing you can't say it's wrong because even in the very end you don't make exactly what you wanted you spent most of your life doing something very close to it and you can always say you gave it everything not "i gave it 6 years" this is fairly weak attitude

Dudess wrote: »

You have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe I didn't bust my ass for six years... the jobs aren't there, it's really simple. Sure, I could wait around for an unknown period of time (possibly years) for a vacancy to come up, and apply with the many, many others for it, while missing out on a mortgage, being able to buy what I want, go on holidays, social occasions, restaurants etc. Frankly, ya gotta get on with life.

I never said you didn't bust your arse for 6 years but 6 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things. again you could of kept building the network you could of went to other countries IF you really wanted to do it you would of gave up friends familiy you would of done what ever it was but you didn't really want it

Dudess wrote: »

Get down from the clouds there ntlbell . So if your dream is to be a Hollywood actor or actress in the same bracket as Colin Farrell and you have the talent, you'll find it cuz you really want it?
That’s not the way life is and to say it is, is just being disingenuous.
Again, of course there's the possibility you'll get it but an overwhelming likelihood you won't - for very boring reasons like too many others going for it, not enough jobs, yadda yadda… Sure I’ve picked an extreme example – but you claim you can get ANYTHING you want. Now, apply that to an area where there’s a handful of full-time jobs and they’re not being vacated and countless people are going for them.
In SOME sectors (with far more jobs) yes you'll definitely get it with enough drive, but not all sectors - specifically the ones where there just aren't the jobs...

Not in the clouds at all, taking the holywood actor scenario be as big as collin farrel ? is it impossible? of course, if you keep working keep acting keep getting better acting jobs and keep in contact with as many people as you can constantly opening doors you give yourself a very good chance and even you don't hit hollywood you might still spend your life doing exactly what you wanted to do act.

Dudess wrote: »

Just because everything's worked out for you ntlbell doesn't give you licence to get on your high horse and look down on others.
No doubt you'll regale me with stories of hardship and struggling to get where you are... you work in I.T., not arts/cultural/media industries - slight difference in the amount of opportunities.

I don't have license to get on any high horse nor am I looking down on anyone, I can have an opinion on dedication and effort and when it comes to doing what you want in life it takes tons of sometimes a lifetime of it i see you given up after given it little or no chance cause 6 years is nothing.

Dudess wrote: »

Learn about the industry yourself. You haven't a clue what you're talking about...

I don't need to know about any industry to spot weak lazy attitudes to it.

Dudess wrote: »

I love all this talking down to me from two guys who have never worked in the industry and know nothing about it... and from a girl seven or eight years younger than me and who has also never worked in the industry.

I'm not talking about your industry I'm not talking about career's I'm talking about life and getting what you want from it and regardless of what that is will take "honesty of effort" to quote mr giles it takes dedication and it takes some balls and i dont need to know anything about the industry to see you had none of the above and now you want everyone else that might want to give something everything a sad story of how reality bites and no matter how hard you work it wont come....rubbish complete tosh

Dudess wrote: »

And I'm no expert like a seasoned veteran journalist either but at least my knowledge is Grand Canyon-esque compared to that of you guys...

After spending years in college I would very much hope you had a better grasp on the industry than I but it what it didn't teach you is how to have some balls and some life skills instead it thought you to give in and let other people decide your new mediocre lifestyle well done your great.

Dudess wrote: »

Please stop patronising and insulting me by telling me I'm a failure and not determined enough for not sticking with barely enough freelance work to get by, on the off chance my dream job (of which there are barely any) might come up some time in the next god-knows-how-many years... I didn’t totally “give up” anyway, I still write articles on the side and I’m involved in community radio and DJ-ing. Gonna set up a blog too. It’s just... reducing what you do to part-time rather than full-time, in radio at least, significantly decreases your chances of getting anything full-time. But I’m more into actually living rather than putting my life on hold, which is what you do as a struggling freelancer. Call me fussy, but being broke and not having a clue about your work situation from one day to the next and not knowing when, or even if, this will end… well it doesn’t exactly make for an appealing life.

you gave up you gave in you left the gap for the person under you waiting for another one to drop out who has staying power get another step closer to his/her dream job you failed. you quit. again congrats on given it 6 years a real winner

blue peter badge for you, i'm sure the 6 years will be great to tell the grandkids about

stovelid

Ntlbell, quit trolling. It's ridiculous to say that people don't get their dream job on merit alone. There can be many other factors involved. At certain age, people can't just merely subsist and wait for the opening to come up. Other considerations like comfort and security vie too.

Dudess

Firstly ntlbell, don't pick/leave out bits of my posts just to suit your argument, it only weakens it further. And it's very weak as it is.

ntlbell wrote: »

As I said to you before you do whatever it takes if you really want it, you travel the world

Ah yeah, you just "travel the world" - shur we can all do that. And where, pray tell, would I get the money when I make fuk all from freelancing? Oh wait, I "find" a way... etc.

you do something that might lead to the big thing

Um... I did that. I notice you're using the term "might" now though - not so definite any more are ya?

you don't give up and do some mundaine job after 6 years

You do. Cuz you're sick of being broke, and it's impractical to live that way after a certain point and you're unhappy. Oh and one minor thing... the jobs aren't there.

you keep pushing you can't say it's wrong because even in the very end you don't make exactly what you wanted

Ah... not so sure now are ya that it's definite if you "put your mind to it" etc?

you spent most of your life doing something very close to it and you can always say you gave it everything

And being broke, no security, inability to plan... ah look I've said all these things.

not "i gave it 6 years" this is fairly weak attitude

Come on now ntlbell, you know well that six years is a very considerable length of time. I don't know where you get your "it's a weak attitude" thing from... unless you trained in the Marines or something. Throwing out remarks like that doesn't do much for your argument.

again you could of kept building the network

Still doin' that, kiddo...

you could of went to other countries IF you really wanted to do it you would of gave up friends familiy

True... although that would make me miserable and lonely and nothing's worth that. So I didn't do those things due to not wanting to be miserable and lonely - if that's failure it's a ****ed world view you've got.

but you didn't really want it

Um... stop telling me what I want and don't want thanks. Speculate all you want but don't make statements that you have no proof of (apart from the dubious "proof" in your own head).

taking the holywood actor scenario be as big as collin farrel ? is it impossible? of course, if you keep working keep acting keep getting better acting jobs and keep in contact with as many people as you can constantly opening doors you give yourself a very good chance and even you don't hit hollywood you might still spend your life doing exactly what you wanted to do act.

Ah... but you said earlier you could do ANYTHING you wanted with enough determination etc - which is of course bollocks. No, I'm not talking about acting in general, I'm talking about being a Hollywood actor/actress. You can't tell me that's unreasonable because you said you could achieve "anything"...
"Give yourself a very good chance"? "Even if you don't hit Hollywood?" "Might spending your life doing exactly what you wanted"? But I thought you'd actually get yourself the job...
"Keep acting"? Eh... so acting jobs are always there for the taking? Wow, I never heard about that. All those struggling actors/actresses who work in restaurants and shops etc... what are they waiting for? They should be doing one of those acting jobs that are growing on trees!
Sorry, acting jobs pop only up every so often - that's even the case for hugely successful actors, it's just they make so much money. Wannabe actors make do with bit parts, commercials etc. You seem to think you just work your way up. It's not like that in areas like this - you're as good as your last job.
Please stop comparing cultural/arts/media industries with I.T.

i see you given up after given it little or no chance cause 6 years is nothing.

Oh it ain't when you're broke and missing out on lots - believe me!
Try it some time - doesn't it seem delightful?

I don't need to know about any industry to spot weak lazy attitudes to it.

Um yeah... it's a tiny bit of a glitch though when there are no jobs in a very specific area within it.

I'm not talking about your industry I'm not talking about career's I'm talking about life and getting what you want from it

Eh... no. We are talking about careers on this thread actually. You're conveniently switching it to life in general rather than career, just like Izzy and Dublindude did. So you can see your argument is failing...

and regardless of what that is will take "honesty of effort" to quote mr giles it takes dedication and it takes some balls and i dont need to know anything about the industry

Oh I think you'll find you do - a lot actually.

you had none of the above

Again, don't make statements about someone you don't know based on... nothing.

and now you want everyone else that might want to give something everything a sad story of how reality bites

I said nothing of the sort. I said to people here they SHOULD go for their dreams within limited areas but not to be so naive as to think it will definitely happen for them just because they have the ambition, determination, talent, self belief.

and no matter how hard you work it wont come

Oh I said it will NEVER happen for them did I? Please find an example. I said it might happen but it won't definitely - even with those attributes.

After spending years in college I would very much hope you had a better grasp on the industry than I but it what it didn't teach you is how to have some balls and some life skills instead it thought you to give in and let other people decide your new mediocre lifestyle.

Based on...? You're trolling now. It looks silly. Don't make unsubstantiated claims please.
And my life before taking a 9 to 5 was so glamorous and wonderful and I was so happy - why did I give it up?

you gave up you gave in you left the gap for the person under you waiting for another one to drop out who has staying power get another step closer to his/her dream job you failed. you quit.

Meh... poor them - being so broke and miserable for years and years and years. "Another step closer"? Thought they'd definitely get it? It's shifting now from "you can achieve anything" to "you can let yourself in with a great chance". Considerable difference.

again congrats on given it 6 years a real winner

blue peter badge for you, i'm sure the 6 years will be great to tell the grandkids about

Ah, the trolling again...

We can go round in circles on this one really - you'll be determined to tell me all this stuff you know about me, despite not having a clue about the industry, people will "thank" your posts - not because they're good arguments, they're INCREDIBLY weak - but because you're disagreeing with me or because they want reaffirmation of the notion that you can achieve any career at all, ANY career if you "believe in yourself" etc.

It's amusing, it really is.

ntlbell - life coach.
You're all right sometimes ntlbell but right now you're talkin', to quote Liam, "shee-ite!"
Now run along and find me all those full-time indie presenter/feature writer jobs - there are obviously loads of them!

ntlbell

Dudess wrote: »

Firstly ntlbell, don't pick/leave out bits of my posts just to suit your argument, it only weakens it further. And it's very weak as it is.

If I leave out a quote it's because I have nothing to say on the matter I'm not going to quote you to go "ok..and ok.. and ok.." if I have nothing to add I'll say nothing.

Dudess wrote: »

Ah yeah, you just "travel the world" - shur we can all do that. And where, pray tell, would I get the money when I make fuk all from freelancing? Oh wait, I "find" a way... etc.

Are we really going to go down this road? You can be working in something non-related save a few months rent pop over to london start making some contacts maybe do what you do here free lance busk the means doesn't really matter where it comes from as long as it's enough to keep you working towards whatever it is you want. Your clutching at straws here.

Dudess wrote: »

Um... I did that. I notice you're using the term "might" now though - not so definite any more are ya?

more straws to be clutched, might might not what is sure is you WON'T if you quit that's for definite.

Dudess wrote: »

You do. Cuz you're sick of being broke, and it's impractical to live that way after a certain point and you're unhappy. Oh and one minor thing... the jobs aren't there.

Then you do find a way to make more money that leaves you enough time to put the effort in to continue on whatever it is that needs to be done. the jobs must be there? people are in them right now? how did they get there? everyone of them got lucky? these jobs just fell out of no where on the door step?

please.... stop insulting your own and my intelligence

Dudess wrote: »

Come on now ntlbell, you know well that six years is a very considerable length of time. I don't know where you get your "it's a weak attitude" thing from... unless you trained in the Marines or something. Throwing out remarks like that doesn't do much for your argument.

Still doin' that, kiddo...

you called me kiddo lol you know all the ways to put plenty of weight behind yours;)

if you work for roughly 60 years or so 6 years is 1/10 of your career it's pretty short in the grand scheme of things, quitting is a habbit of the weak it's pretty clear where the thing comes from....

Dudess wrote: »

True... although that would make me miserable and lonely and nothing's worth that. So I didn't do those things due to not wanting to be miserable and lonely - if that's failure it's a ****ed world view you've got.

No there fears and excuses you put in the way so you don't have to put the effort in to get what you want. your friends and familiy could be contacted by phone sms email IM ireland is a fairly short flight away from most places. you can make new friends etc just excuses dudess...nothing more nothing less

Dudess wrote: »

Ah... but you said earlier you could do ANYTHING you wanted with enough determination etc - which is of course bollocks. No, I'm not talking about acting in general, I'm talking about being a Hollywood actor/actress. You can't tell me that's unreasonable because you said you could achieve "anything"...
"Give yourself a very good chance"? "Even if you don't hit Hollywood?" "Might spending your life doing exactly what you wanted"? But I thought you'd actually get yourself the job...
"Keep acting"? Eh... so acting jobs are always there for the taking? Wow, I never heard about that. All those struggling actors/actresses who work in restaurants and shops etc... what are they waiting for? They should be doing one of those acting jobs that are growing on trees!
Sorry, acting jobs pop only up every so often - that's even the case for hugely successful actors, it's just they make so much money. Wannabe actors make do with bit parts, commercials etc. You seem to think you just work your way up. It's not like that in areas like this - you're as good as your last job.
Please stop comparing cultural/arts/media industries with I.T.

You can do anything acting is acting putting a collin farrel tag on it is just childish and silly you can put the effort in and act for life and if you put yourself about work hard enough you have a very good chance of becoming very successful if you quit and say why start i wont become colin farrel well as sure as there's an eye in a duck you won't be making holiday unless it's via your magic luck factor.

I never mentioned IT you did.

Dudess wrote: »

Oh it ain't when you're broke and missing out on lots - believe me!
Try it some time - doesn't it seem delightful?

I have enough things in my life that make me very happy that I never have to worry about needing money to enhance it, money doesn't interest me in the slightest.

But if I was a quitter and never strived become more than someone else then I couldn't look myself in the mirror and no amount of money could change that

Dudess wrote: »

Um yeah... it's a tiny bit of a glitch though when there are no jobs in a very specific area within it.

Of course there's jobs people are in your job right now, today, tonight.......they got the job that iluded you why? luck? nonsense.

Dudess wrote: »

Eh... no. We are talking about careers on this thread actually. You're conveniently switching it to life in general rather than career, just like Izzy and Dublindude did. So you can see your argument is failing...

Because the rule applies to everything in life which includes your career if you have ambitions to lead a medicore life been someone's go for that's the career you will end up in and you can make nice little excuses like "there was no jobs" "i gave it my best" when the truth is you quit to have a mediocre life

Dudess wrote: »

Meh... poor them - being so broke and miserable for years and years and years. "Another step closer"? Thought they'd definitely get it? It's shifting now from "you can achieve anything" to "you can let yourself in with a great chance". Considerable difference.

Why do you think people are broke? broke is a relative term some people are very happy with the basics other's life is seriuously lacking and needs to be fuled with materials and other nonsense so they dont have to confront their own faults like weakness and been a quitter.

Dudess wrote: »

Ah, the trolling again...

clearly:rolleyes:

Dudess wrote: »

We can go round in circles on this one really - you'll be determined to tell me all this stuff you know about me, despite not having a clue about the industry, people will "thank" your posts - not because they're good arguments, they're INCREDIBLY weak - but because you're disagreeing with me or because they want reaffirmation of the notion that you can achieve any career at all, ANY career if you "believe in yourself" etc.

why do you feel the need to point out the weakness in someone who might thank a post that is in disagreement?

That my dear is trolling and it sounds like serious hurt/anger/insecurities

Dudess wrote: »

ntlbell - life coach.
You're all right sometimes ntlbell but right now you're talkin', to quote Liam, "shee-ite!"
Now run along and find me all those full-time indie presenter/feature writer jobs - there are obviously loads of them!

I never said there was loads of jobs, I never said they were easy to get.
But liying to yourself as to why you didn't make it won't help you find one.
Maybe be a bit more honest with yourself get some balls and get out there inseatd of hiding in an office been someone else's lacky

</troll>

Dudess

ntlbell wrote: »

Then you do find a way to make more money that leaves you enough time to put the effort in to continue on whatever it is that needs to be done. the jobs must be there? people are in them right now? how did they get there? everyone of them got lucky? these jobs just fell out of no where on the door step?

please.... stop insulting your own and my intelligence

Oh yeah, the jobs are there - a tiny few and people aren't quitting them. Not saying though there isn't a likelihood of me getting one... but it's a TINY likelihood.

if you work for roughly 60 years or so 6 years is 1/10 of your career it's pretty short in the grand scheme of things, quitting is a habbit of the weak

Meh, you call it quitting, I call it sensible. You've eh... never been there so you don't know what you're talking about.

You can do anything acting is acting putting a collin farrel tag on it is just childish and silly you can put the effort in and act for life and if you put yourself about work hard enough you have a very good chance of becoming very successful

Yeah, a chance, not a guarantee, which is what you said first. Now... I was talking not about acting in general, but getting into Hollywood. So you agree now that this ISN'T guaranteed. Good.

I never mentioned IT you did.

But it's clearly what you're basing your arguments on as it's what's familiar to you.

I have enough things in my life that make me very happy that I never have to worry about needing money to enhance it, money doesn't interest me in the slightest.

Very noble of you but you do obviously have enough money to live and for a car, a mortgage, doing enjoyable things like going to restaurants etc. That's all I want too and yet, those things are a struggle/impossible on a freelance income. I'm not prepared to do that for an indefinite number of years when it could all be for nothing - caveat: not definitely for nothing but more than likely for nothing. Still I gave it six years - a good long time.
I've absolutely no interest in being rich - again, nothing to indicate that though, you just decided.

But if I was a quitter and never strived become more than someone else then I couldn't look myself in the mirror

My, what a renegade. Now when you let go of your idealistic bullsh1t you will understand that you just have to be practical.

Of course there's jobs people are in your job right now, today, tonight.......they got the job that iluded you why?

Eh... because the tiny, tiny handful of jobs are already staffed? No job elluded me, there weren't any when I was looking for those jobs. Full-time feature writer - actually I don't even think such a job exists.

luck? nonsense.

Oh no I think you'll find it's not. Luck, along with all the other stuff mentioned, good timing too.

Why do you think people are broke? broke is a relative term some people are very happy with the basics other's life is seriuously lacking and needs to be fuled with materials and other nonsense so they dont have to confront their own faults like weakness and been a quitter.

Um yeah... I like the idea of being able to afford to live - don't you? And you tell me I'm clutching at straws...

But liying to yourself as to why you didn't make it won't help you find one.

No, working hard towards it will help you... but then, when there are practically zero jobs, your chances significantly dwindle.

Maybe be a bit more honest with yourself get some balls and get out there inseatd of hiding in an office been someone else's lacky

Ok, I'll go back to full-time writing articles and sending them off and most of them being rejected; I'll go back to doing freelance radio shifts which I hate and for fuk all money... instead of having a comfortable office job with prospects, because at least it would mean I'm not someone's lackey. And I'd be miserable and it would go on for years with possibly no end in sight. But luckily it would mean I'm not a quitter.

Seriously, listen to yourself...

nesf

Why don't you two take it to PM eh?

Izzy, would you try and read my posts properly. No, I don't think everything is about luck, I think luck does come into certain things. The average starting wage for someone entering administration is the low 20s... how many of us said that to you? Can we all be wrong? It's unusual to start as high as you did... ergo you were lucky

But was I lucky? Or did I make it happen? I really, really don't believe I was 'lucky' enough to score two 'well paid' jobs (that one and another one) in fields I had little experience in. Come on. Perhaps luck paid a small part, but it also had to do with my education, experience and personality. The employer didn't pick names out of a hat. I could have thought 'I don't have much experience in this, sure I'll just apply for the low paid jobs.' I could have thought I was wasting my time applying for jobs with higher salaries and hoping for higher salaries. Isn't that what you implied?

All I was saying is, if you want to be a writer, you can be a writer. One poster told you he had a contact, he could set something up for you. If you want to be picky about what type of writer you want to be, or you insist on doing it full time, that's up to you, but please don't say it's unlikely/difficult to be a writer/radio presenter/whatever. It isn't. I could move to Spain right now and get a job in radio, and it's not even really what I want to work in. If you want to start off your career in a full time, well paid job in Ireland, of course it's going to be difficult.

True... although that would make me miserable and lonely and nothing's worth that. So I didn't do those things due to not wanting to be miserable and lonely - if that's failure it's a ****ed world view you've got.

He didn't say it made you a failure. He said it's what would be expected of someone trying to make a go of a career in the media. If you didn't even leave Ireland, how much of a go did you really make of it? It's absolutely none of our business, but for someone determined to persue a career, moving around is just part of the job, IMO. Why do you think it would make you miserable and lonely? I've lived in 5 countries in 4 years and I'm not miserable or lonely. I wouldn't think journalism/media was a particularly good career for a homebird and I don't mean that in a negative way at all. Just going from the people I know in that field.

Dudess

Course he said I was a failure, along with copious other insults - but he's a renowned troll.
Dublindude saying it though surprised me...
[quote=[Deleted User];57676756]But was I lucky? Or did I make it happen? I really, really don't believe I was 'lucky' enough to score two 'well paid' jobs (that one and another one) in fields I had little experience in.[/QUOTE]
I would say luck played more than a small part, along with your other attributes of course.

I could have thought I was wasting my time applying for jobs with higher salaries and hoping for higher salaries. Isn't that what you implied?

No. You wouldn't be wasting your time at all. I simply said you would be naive to think this guarantees you what you want.

All I was saying is, if you want to be a writer, you can be a writer.

Sure. But not definitely full-time - and remember, we were focusing on careers initially, not part-time gigs/sidelines.

One poster told you he had a contact, he could set something up for you. If you want to be picky about what type of writer you want to be, or you insist on doing it full time, that's up to you

Precisely. I AM picky about what I'd be writing/what I'd be presenting, thus decreasing my chances very significantly and determination etc will is not gonna bypass that. Just being realistic. Anyway, I AM writing on the side - but again, aren't we talking about full-time careers?
And you can't "insist" on writing full-time I'm afraid - well full-time and getting paid enough to live on.

but please don't say it's unlikely/difficult to be a writer/radio presenter/whatever.

Cuz it's not what you want to hear? Sorry Izzy but it IS difficult/unlikely. And I frankly resent you tellling me these things as fact when you have not worked in the industry.
If you're not fussy, you increase your chances of getting mediocre/part-time work in these areas (believe me, most of it isn't exciting/interesting/glamorous).

I could move to Spain right now and get a job in radio

Could you? I could get a crap chart show presenting gig too... but I don't want it.

If you want a full time, well paid job in Ireland, of course it's going to be difficult.

Ditto Spain. You think the money is gonna be good there? The money in radio is sh1t everywhere. It's an industry that relies on advertising/sponsorship revenue alone.

OK, believe I'm lucky. Hell, I'm used to people telling me I'm 'lucky' because I speak 3 languages fluently. Nobody is interested in the fact I spent YEARS plugging away, working abroad, listening to foreign radio stations every day, doing exercises from textbooks. No, they'd rather think I was born trilingual. I couldn't POSSIBLY have made more of the same opportunities anyone else in this country was given.

No. You wouldn't be wasting your time at all. I simply said you would be naive to think this guarantees you what you want.

No sh*t. Does that even need saying? Nothing is ever guaranteed. I thought it would be worthwhile to try. And it worked.

Precisely. I AM picky about what I'd be writing/what I'd be presenting, thus decreasing my chances very significantly and determination etc will is not gonna bypass that. Just being realistic.
And you can't "insist" on writing full-time I'm afraid - well full-time and getting paid enough to live on.

So there you go. You're not prepared to compromise at all. Of course it's possible to write 'part time' - you just need to find another way to supplement your income. It's normal in creative fields like writing, art, animation, whatever. Teaching during the day because your paintings don't make enough money doesn't make you any less an artist but it means you can pay the rent.
Hardly a horrible way to live.

Cuz it's not what you want to hear? Sorry Izzy but it IS difficult/unlikely. And I frankly resent you tellling me these things as fact when you have not worked in the industry.

I know a lot more about 'the industry' than you think. I might not work in it but I have a hell of a lot of information about it.

The fact is, you obviously want a lot of other things more than you want a career in writing/media. That's obvious from your posts. If you were really truly putting your all into it, you'd take the crappy jobs, you'd take the crap money, you'd waitress or whatever during the day to make up the money for essentials like rent. If it's not worth it to you that's absolutely fair enough but there are plenty of people who ARE willing to have a good go at it. I don't even work in the media, but owning a car is a luxury to me. Having a mortgage is a luxury to me. Living in the same country as my family is a luxury to me. I have none of those things. I could settle in a civil service job and have all these things. For now, I'm having a go at something more enjoyable.