Sinn Fein/IRA to organise provocative march

LordSutch

Everybody's welcome around the table but as the opening post says "Sinn Fein/IRA to organise Provocative march" and yes, I do consider 'their leaders' as bad people for sure, specially when you look
at their combined prison records, and on this issue I just see the SDLP acting as sheep ..............

As far as I am aware, Sinn Fein are against the 'Royal Irish Regiment' full stop! as opposed to being solely against the Wars on Afghanistan & Iraq.

I do wish everybody, Unionist-Nationalist-Loyalist-Republican & others would get round the table (round or otherwise) & talk things-out instead of having bloody silly counter marches designed to divide & alienate the communities instead of bringing them together.

dlofnep

An anti-war march is not silly. Just because you do not agree with it does not make it so. People should rightfully be allowed to object to a parade that celebrates child killers.

Secondly, we've already established that Sinn Féin did not organise the march.

Allah Hu Akbar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, I'm not from the north. Nice jumping to conclusions though.

What did the Columbia three get in return for teaching columbian rebels how to build bombs?

Well you seem to know everything that goes on there so I thought you were from there.

I'm still waiting on a link to the drugs? Come on one link where drugs were found and the PIRA owned them? You can't because it didn't happen so please stop spreading your ****e.

Fratton Fred

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

Well you seem to know everything that goes on there so I thought you were from there.

I'm still waiting on a link to the drugs? Come on one link where drugs were found and the PIRA owned them? You can't because it didn't happen so please stop spreading your ****e.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57647551&postcount=224

Sorry, but the entire country seems to consider the IRA are drug barons.

Dyr

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57647551&postcount=224

Sorry, but the entire country seems to consider the IRA are drug barons.

We'll take that as a "no" so

Fratton Fred

Bambi wrote: »

We'll take that as a "no" so

take it however you like.

Allah Hu Akbar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57647551&postcount=224

Sorry, but the entire country seems to consider the IRA are drug barons.

I don't give two fecks what other people think! You made a claim they're drug dealers, I'm asking for abit of proof, after all there should be a load of evidence to support your claim.

Maybe you should look up abit about the likes of the D.A.A.D.

Fratton Fred

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

I don't give two fecks what other people think! You made a claim they're drug dealers, I'm asking for abit of proof, after all there should be a load of evidence to support your claim.

Maybe you should look up abit about the likes of the D.A.A.D.

I posted a link to an article in the Indo, would you like to refute his claims then?

Allah Hu Akbar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I posted a link to an article in the Indo, would you like to refute his claims then?

Waiting on the link!!

Sorry, but the entire country seems to consider the IRA are drug barons.

So if everyone on boards told you the world was flat you would believe that?

Fratton Fred

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

Waiting on the link!!

So if everyone on boards told you the world was flat you would believe that?

ok then, third time lucky http://www.independent.ie/national-news/provos-set-thugs-on-outofcontrol-members-in-south-506116.html

the old flat earth analogy again eh?

If I was the only person that thought it wasn't, i would seriously question my opinion.

Allah Hu Akbar

Oh I missed the link you put up from Independent jesus it changes it tune quick doesn't it, the articale was wrote in 2002 but look at this recent one

SECTIONS of the IRA appear to have reformed as rumours abound of defections from Sinn Fein in the wake of growing disenchantment in traditional republican areas over the spread of drugs and lawlessness, according to well-placed republican sources.
Reports from Tyrone say that former Provisional IRA members banded together and were responsible for the expulsion of nine suspected drug dealers from Dungannon in the past two weeks.
In a well-planned operation, the houses of the nine alleged drug dealers were visited by armed men who ordered all the occupants to leave the town and never return, the sources said. The town's police station was closed at the time because of a bomb scare.
The incident was not reported but has been confirmed by reliable local sources. One said it was an "East Tyrone operation", referring to the East Tyrone brigade of the IRA.
The operation in Dungannon was said to be a response to the stabbing to death of local man Eamon Hughes, a former republican. Mr Hughes was killed by youths on September 12 as he walked home from his daughter's 18th birthday party. The expulsions of the alleged drug dealers took place two nights later.
Local people said that the town has been swamped with drugs, including heroin, in the past year and that people's lives were being made a misery by the violent and disruptive behaviour of young drug takers.

Find this part kinda strange

The IRA was supposed to have disbanded and decommissioned its weapons two years ago, but apparently it has held on to some weapons. An improvised rocket, manufactured 15 years ago while the IRA campaign was still going, was used to attack PSNI officers near Rosslea, in Fermanagh, in June.

So now they're saying the PIRA did that attack? Sure the CIRA already admitted it was them.

What is not clear, the sources say, is whether the re-emerging IRA is under the control of its former Army Council leadership, which included Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams and Martin Ferris, or whether it has a new leadership. Sources in the North said it certainly seemed that the IRA was re-emerging in areas where it had a traditional stronghold, mainly in response to widespread drug dealing and parallel increases in criminality.

Newspaper claiming Gerry was on army council :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

Newspaper claiming Gerry was on army council :rolleyes:

Good news for Dungannon, **** news for the rest of us.

There is a very good profile on Gerry Adams on the BBC site, it is not what you would expect.

The guy bugs the ****e out ofme, but he has led his party well.

McArmalite

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

Waiting on the link!!

So if everyone on boards told you the world was flat you would believe that?

Allah, his usual counter for bare hard facts and reason for criticism of his beloved britian and it's army is sort of - If britian's line is that the world is flat, then it's FLAT.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ok then, third time lucky http://www.independent.ie/national-news/provos-set-thugs-on-outofcontrol-members-in-south-506116.html

the old flat earth analogy again eh?

If I was the only person that thought it wasn't, i would seriously question my opinion.

But here we go again, not ONE single piece of actual proof but the usual Gang Busters type of innuedo and complete fantasy. No NAMES, No CONVICTIONS , no Proof but from the article " a well-known and previously feared activist.....Leading republican figures.....One Limerick activist......South Armagh brigade "

Like the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, like the German plot used to imprision the Sinn Fein leadership in 1918, the IRA's invovlement in drugs is a COMPLETE FALASY. Tell me Fred or any of the others who accuse the Provos of being drug dealers etc.

- How for 25 years despite innumerable house searches, cars, personal, workplaces the coppers either side of the border NEVER made finds of drugs quanities on Repulicans *
- How the huge shipments of arms from America, Europe, the Middle East that were intercepted, NEVER ONCE were found to have drugs on them. Even the thousands of arms caches found under the floor boards in houses, hidden in a hay shed of Republicans etc - not ONCE were drugs found among them.
- I once heard that something like up to 12,000 Republicans were imprisioned during the troubles in the six counties and 2,500 in the south. What percentage of these people were ever found in poccession of drugs ? And indeed, since the Provos were supposed to be so invovled in drugs, how much drugs were ever found in the prison wing of the IRA ?? ( The Provos " Jail brew " - a form of poitín doen't count )

Fred or anyone else produce the hard FACTS, evidence, convictions,, if they were so invovled in drugs, any of you should not have problems producing the hard evidence, no problems at all. And not innuendo and hearsay sort of bull you hear from the likes of Paul Williams - ' I have it from the highest authority.....a senior Garda told me.....a reliable source has informed me.....'

But since your so concerned with drugs Fred, as someone has already pointed out, do you notice how Afghan heroin has flodded Europe since britian and America invaded ??

Allah Hu Akbar

McArmalite wrote: »

Allah, his usual counter for bare hard facts and reason for criticism of his beloved britian and it's army is sort of - If britian's line is that the world is flat, then it's FLAT.

But he gave facts, he gave a link to the Independent newspaper so it must be true

TOMASJ

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Actually, I don't "try very hard" to come across any particular way - I say it as I see it.

As do I

The thread title says "Sinn Fein/IRA" to organise provocative march, so the thread is about the protest, not the parade. As I said earlier, if there was a thread about the parade, I'd voice my opinions there.

The thread diverts to slightly of subject from time to time, just read your own input on 251 where you butted in on dlofnep post, And therein lies the reason you get labelled as an "apologist" of sorts, dlofnep
This was postings about bomb warnings,
and had nothing to do with the title of the thread, just another snide dig at republicans.

My country is the Republic of Ireland. Replace the word country with "island" and you'd be right. If and when it's a united Ireland, I'll be glad enough for loads of reasons, but I'm just clarifying the facts with that statement

My country is also an Island call Ireland 32 county s four provinces, that should be the case if you are an Irish man,

And likewise, why do guys "whose buddies were responsible for dozens of murders" want to protest ???

As I have said earlier this parade is going past these peoples homes to use your rapist analogy, would you want the rapist who attacked you sister or daughter stomping up to your house when he has just committed another rape (in Iraq).

I was very understanding and said that "it might come across that way", rather than completely jumping to conclusions and attacking the poster; pity you can't seem to give me the same respect

I was not attacking you just your views.

What exactly haven't I said that's relevant and on-topic in relation to the thread title ?

"The war is wrong" ? I've said that
"The British Army has done wrong in NI and in Iraq" ? I've said that
"If they were marching here I'd protest too*" ? I've said that
Clarification: Based on what they've done, not because of who they are

The ONLY point I've made is that it's fairly ironic that a group who have used dodgy tactics resulting in the deaths of innocents are protesting against a group who have done exactly the same

The difference here is that one group is on ceasefire and are currently killing no one, while the other group the RIR are still at what they do best, only difference is the nationally of the victims

Allah Hu Akbar

For all the English people or even the Irish if they wish watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II77prkxtfo

That is part one, there is about about 25 parts to it so it will run for about 3hours but honestly people should watch this who clearly have no knowledge about Northern Ireland.

The link isn't a Pro republican link incase the Mods have any trouble with the link..

You watch all of that documentary, then come back and tell me what you think of your country.

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote: »

This was postings about bomb warnings,
and had nothing to do with the title of the thread, just another snide dig at republicans.

No, it wasn't a "snide dig". dlofnep acknowledged themselves how the post could be interpreted as "apologist", and - in being equally reasonable - I accepted that it was a careless misphrasing, rather than an indication of condoning or excusing anything.

TOMASJ wrote: »

My country is also an Island call Ireland 32 county s four provinces, that should be the case if you are an Irish man,

I'll avoid taking that as a personal slight or insult and just stick to facts again. I'm Irish and your view isn't "the case", so - quite simply - you're wrong.

As I have said earlier this parade is going past these peoples homes to use your rapist analogy, would you want the rapist who attacked you sister or daughter stomping up to your house when he has just committed another rape (in Iraq).

No, but if I was a fellow rapist then I couldn't complain about them moving onto the street, could I ?

I was not attacking you just your views.

See your apparent inference above that I'm somehow "less Irish". I see that as an insult, but I haven't reported it. If you're not being personal, fair enough (and there's no point dragging this even further off-topic) but it's stretching my "reasonable-ness" to see how you could infer that without being insulting; that someone with different views to me is somehow "more Irish". :rolleyes:

The difference here is that one group is on ceasefire and are currently killing no one, while the other group the RIR are still at what they do best, only difference is the nationally of the victims

So - back to the rapist scenario; you believe that someone who has raped in the past without apologising or attempting to right wrongs or help the families and thereby show remorse should be entitled to complain when a new "still-active" rapist moves onto the street ?

The only person who would believe that would be the first rapist; all other people living on the street would object to both being there and would probably agree that the first rapist should shut up and lie low to avoid being called on their double-standard.

gurramok

March is going ahead, approved by the Parades Commission with conditions attached.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1023/breaking81.htm

TOMASJ

I'll avoid taking that as a personal slight or insult and just stick to facts again. I'm Irish and your view isn't "the case", so - quite simply - you're wrong.

'You seem to be very easily insulted'
which part is wrong, the fact that I say Ireland is my country or that you don't believe that the 32 county's constitutes the country called Ireland, are your views from a british or Irish perspective.


As I have said earlier this parade is going past these peoples homes to use your rapist analogy, would you want the rapist who attacked you sister or daughter stomping up to your house when he has just committed another rape (in Iraq).

No, but if I was a fellow rapist then I couldn't complain about them moving onto the street, could I ?

Sorry for not being clearer on this one, 'read above if you missed the question'
I was speaking here of the people who live in the Markets area, the RIR are parading past their homes after what their buddies inflicted on the people of these street over 30 odd years, If this is not coat railing provocation I don't know what you would like to call it

I was not attacking you just your views.

See your apparent inference above that I'm somehow "less Irish". I see that as an insult, but I haven't reported it. If you're not being personal, fair enough (and there's no point dragging this even further off-topic) but it's stretching my "reasonable-ness" to see how you could infer that without being insulting; that someone with different views to me is somehow "more Irish".

Quote:
How was the post I was not attacking you just your views. making you feel that I was infering you were less Irish or insulting you ?

The difference here is that one group is on ceasefire and are currently killing no one, while the other group the RIR are still at what they do best, only difference is the nationally of the victims

So - back to the rapist scenario; you believe that someone who has raped in the past without apologising or attempting to right wrongs or help the families and thereby show remorse should be entitled to complain when a new "still-active" rapist moves onto the street ?

If the complaining rapist as you put it has been castrated and unable to rape again then 'yes' I think he is on morally higher groung than a "still-active" rapist

Erin Go Brath

gurramok wrote: »

March is going ahead, approved by the Parades Commission with conditions attached.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1023/breaking81.htm

Good news indeed. Sinn Féin are absolutely correct to display their opposition to these Brit army/RIR warmonger actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Well done to all concerned within SF and éirigi for taking a stand against these moral-less mercenaries strutting around an Irish city.

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote: »

My country is also an Island call Ireland 32 county s four provinces, that should be the case if you are an Irish man,

The insult was the bit in bold, implying that I am less Irish than you because I have different views.

Mind you, after thinking about it you're probably right; I shouldn't have been insulted because you're wrong, and you're not in any position to have a divine insight into what should or shouldn't be the case if someone's an Irish man.

So I'll take back the "I'm insulted" and take the statement in the same way as I'd take "You should beat up women to be a real man". :rolleyes:

Mind you, what you were referring to wasn't even specifically my view or preference, and I said that at the time; it was just a geographical and political fact.

If the complaining rapist as you put it has been castrated and unable to rape again then 'yes' I think he is on morally higher groung than a "still-active" rapist

No, not "morally higher groud", since the complaining rapist probably didn't DECIDE to be castrated. If they did, and apologised, and they'd served their time in prison, then fair enough - they'd still be on iffy moral ground (since they could never undo the damage that they'd already done), but they would be slightly higher than the currently-active rapist......I'll give you that, 100%.

But - apart from merely DECIDING to STOP doing what they should never have been doing - the IRA haven't been punished, haven't been castrated and haven't apologised.

Look, there is some validity to what you're saying......the IRA have at least "stopped". So on a scale of 1 - 10, they are about 7 while the guys marching are still on 10.

But it's still hypocritical, and the "let he without sin cast the stone" applies; it's the people between 0 and maybe 3 on that scale that have the moral ground to protest.

And I'll accept that we'll probably differ on that, but I just want to point out that taking that stance is purely logical and not an agenda; after all, it's two groups that have both acted like terrorists in going for their "goal", and they were both wrong.

Should the UK Army march ? No
Should there be protests against their actions in Iraq ? Yes
Are SF/IRA on high enough moral ground to organise the protest ? My opinion : No
Do I think more people would protest if there wasn't a risk of being associated with extremism or SF/IRA ? Yes

But - given that we're being "neutral" and it's - supposedly - me that's being biased, let's look at it another way. If someone now at "moral ground" level 7 is entitled to protest against someone at level 10, let's look at that.....

Are you as adamant that someone at level 0 be allowed to protest against someone at level 7 ?

So would you support Robert McCartney's or Jerry McCabe's families protesting and managing to stop an IRA march ?

TOMASJ

Mind you, after thinking about it you're probably right; I shouldn't have been insulted because you're wrong, and you're not in any position to have a divine insight into what should or shouldn't be the case if someone's an Irish man.

So I'll take back the "I'm insulted" and take the statement in the same way as I'd take "You should beat up women to be a real man".

Why not take it in the way the Jackeens would have taken it in their treatment of the men who held the Easter rising,

Mind you, what you were referring to wasn't even specifically my view or preference, and I said that at the time; it was just a geographical and political fact.

Are you saying that the six county's is a country, now that's not a very Irish viewpoint,

No, not "morally higher groud", since the complaining rapist probably didn't DECIDE to be castrated. If they did, and apologised, and they'd served their time in prison, then fair enough - they'd still be on iffy moral ground (since they could never undo the damage that they'd already done), but they would be slightly higher than the currently-active rapist......I'll give you that, 100%.

But - apart from merely DECIDING to STOP doing what they should never have been doing - the IRA haven't been punished, haven't been castrated and haven't apologised

.

Look, there is some validity to what you're saying......the IRA have at least "stopped". So on a scale of 1 - 10, they are about 7 while the guys marching are still on 10.

But it's still hypocritical, and the "let he without sin cast the stone" applies; it's the people between 0 and maybe 3 on that scale that have the moral ground to protest.

The one thing you keep missing is that the IRA were an army just like they were in 1916) but using you rapist analogy again they the 1916 IRA would have been seen as rapists by those with pro british viewpoint at that time.
The RIR are still an army of the british crown, and elected by no one, the protest is being organised by Sinn Fein a democratic elected party all over the 32 county's.

But - given that we're being "neutral" and it's - supposedly - me that's being biased, let's look at it another way. If someone now at "moral ground" level 7 is entitled to protest against someone at level 10, let's look at that.....

Are you as adamant that someone at level 0 be allowed to protest against someone at level 7 ?

So would you support Robert McCartney's or Jerry McCabe's families protesting and managing to stop an IRA march ?

If the IRA were still active and coming back from the middle east after killing thousands of people, and decided to hold a celebration parade past Robert McCartney's or Jerry McCabe's home, Yes I would view that as coat trailing and provocative,
would you not regardless of to who organised it.

In addition
I watched a programme last night on BBC called lets talk the subject came up for discussion, a member of the audience "from Iraq" observed that these people (RIR) should be tried for war crimes, and be ashamed of themselvs rather than marching through Belfast.

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote: »

Are you saying that the six county's is a country, now that's not a very Irish viewpoint

Where did I say that ? Please don't put words in my mouth, and again, please stop saying what is and isn't an Irish viewpoint; I'm Irish, and I have my viewpoint, as do lots of other people, and you've no right to lay claim to having a better idea of what's an "Irishman" (from earlier) or what's an "Irish viewpoint".

But anyways, it's not what I said, so that's fairly irrelevant.

The one thing you keep missing is that the IRA were an army just like they were in 1916) but using you rapist analogy again they the 1916 IRA would have been seen as rapists by those with pro british viewpoint at that time.

And what you seem to keep missing is that you don't need a pro british viewpoint to be disgusted by people who are (or were) OK with targetting and killing innocents.

Look, I've said my piece; I think it's double standards, and any neutral observer will know that the pathetic comments that that viewpoint makes me "less Irish" or is "not an Irish viewpoint" is bull****.

Anyone who puts innocents at risk - be they RIR or IRA - is WRONG. That's not "taking sides" or being less Irish; it's humanity.

And complaining when others do what you used to do - even if you've stopped - is DOUBLE-STANDARDS and HYPOCRITICAL. You're implying that "having stopped" is some divine absolution, but I'll ask you this : if a certain "BA" used to get cash from "wherever", but hasn't done so for the past 20 years, is he suddenly entitled to get on his high horse about other people getting cash ?

No ? I rest my case.

And now I'm going to stop because I'm repeating myself and not getting through to you anyways; and the "if you were an Irishman...." or "if you had an Irish viewpoint...." is downright pathetic. I am and I do, but it doesn't correspond with what you THINK being "Irish" is, so you're laying claim to those and discounting my views.

McArmalite

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Good news indeed. Sinn Féin are absolutely correct to display their opposition to these Brit army/RIR warmonger actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Well done to all concerned within SF and éirigi for taking a stand against these moral-less mercenaries strutting around an Irish city.

We haven't gone away you know

Allah Hu Akbar

McArmalite wrote: »

We haven't gone away you know

Bring back the ...

Liam Byrne

McArmalite wrote: »

We haven't gone away you know

TOMASJ said you had, and it's hardly a joking matter.

Please clarify the position so that we know that we're not being sold false promises and subverting justice for nothing.

TOMASJ

Where did I say that ? Please don't put words in my mouth, and again, please stop saying what is and isn't an Irish viewpoint; I'm Irish, and I have my viewpoint, as do lots of other people, and you've no right to lay claim to having a better idea of what's an "Irishman" (from earlier) or what's an "Irish viewpoint".

But anyways, it's not what I said, so that's fairly irrelevant

After your 297 post when you criticised my previous post and said "I rest my case" and "I've said my piece" and that my posts were ."downright pathetic.[/quote] I decided out of courtesy to leave it (rather than get into a slanging match with you) now I see on post 297 you are quoting me,

"TOMASJ said you had"

you are the guy that took me to task on your 263 post about changing the slant of the post, which is what you are doing right now on your current posting,
In answer to you coments on post 294 I said " are you saying the six county's is a country, can you tell me if the six countys is not a country and the landmass of the 32 county's is not a country what does an Irish man or woman call Ireland (I am not being as you suggested in an earlier post insulting to you) confused "yes"as to why any any Irish man or woman would demand other than total freedom,
I have a different point of view on the subject having been closer to what went on in the six countys than yourself, and know what the british army are doing in Belfast is nothing other than provocation "we still rule"
getting back my earlier quote" " its not what you say -it what you don't say that speaks volumes on a persons" that's based on your LACK of comment on subjects such as the murder of Aidan McAnespie "cant find any "humane" posts by you on that british Army murder, only comments on murders done by the IRA"
I wonder if you had lived in the six county's and not Limerick would you be as understanding of a group who murdered your relatives marching past you home.

As for you concern about the comment "We haven't gone away you know" by McArmalite, If pro brit posters say the the IRA and Sinn Fein, are inextricably linked, and as you know Sinn Fein, are a democratic party in all 32 county's and a threat to no one this should not trouble you. (clear enough)
Something that should concern you are the amount of guns and weapons held by Unionist , as was reported in the news last week (several hundred rifles and thousand of rounds of ammunition found in a house near where the RIR are going to parade next week.

dlofnep

Looks like this thread is more provocative than the march!

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote:

Are you saying that the six county's is a country, now that's not a very Irish viewpoint

Again, I've gone back through my posts and - despite what TOMASJ is claiming above, all I can find is that :

a) I said that my country is "The Republic of Ireland", and that claiming that this entire island is one country is factually and geographically incorrect. I never indicated what Northern Ireland is or is not (so the above claim by TOMASJ is wrong), other than a part of the UK; and until such time as that is democratically changed, that is a FACT.

if the six countys is not a country and the landmass of the 32 county's is not a country what does an Irish man or woman call Ireland .... confused "yes"

WHAT ? You posted earlier implying that the entire island was a country. It's not. The entire landmass is the island of Ireland. The country I live in is the Republic of Ireland. Those are facts. I've asked before what the official noun for Northern Ireland is, and the only half-official one that I've come across is "statelet".

why any any Irish man or woman would demand other than total freedom

I don't know; maybe you should ask all those people who voted for the GFA. Maybe they think "total freedom" applies to "freedom of choice" ?

Anyone hoping (as they're perfectly entitled to do) that the country's boundaries might change in the future doesn't change that FACT as it stands TODAY.

b) For my troubles in attempting to state the facts, you implied that in order to be an Irishman or to have an Irish viewpoint that I should ignore those facts.

Since no one person can lay claim to an "Irish viewpoint", I'll stand over my use of the word "pathetic" to describe it; it was basically "You don't agree with me, so I'll just claim you're not Irish" :rolleyes:

Yup, having had to type that again, I'm doubly convinced that that was a fairly pathetic opinion, and definitely not the insult that I originally viewed it as. I didn't say your posts were downright pathetic, but I did state that claiming the above WERE; so again, stop twisting what I said and underlining it.

I have repeatedly said that killing innocents is wrong - BY ANYONE.

But the reason that I end up posting way more on this "side" of the topic is for the EXACT reason above; I hate scum and murderers and double-standards from any supposed "SIDE", but the pro-British "side" and the neutrals don't come on here and imply/accuse me of being less Irish or not having a some notional "Irish viewpoint".

So yes, of course I will defend my Irishness and dispute whether in order to be Irish you have to ignore geographical facts and the will of the people, and turn a complete blind eye to past violence and murders.

I wonder if you had lived in the six county's and not Limerick would you be as understanding of a group who murdered your relatives marching past you home.

I don't know; but I'll tell you what - I'll go ask Ben O'Sullivan's son and Ann McCabe so that at least I have a benchmark for it; I mean, that happened in county Limerick and is probably the closest benchmark that I have.

I've said it a million times : let he without sin cast the first stone, or else bite their tongue.

And re McArmalite's post - you said that SF/IRA were entitled to protest because they had stopped. I agreed that this gave them VERY SLIGHTLY higher moral ground, but just not as much as you'd prefer.

McArmalite then posted a variation on the old IRA threat, and I said that it needed to be clarified, since part of your argument in support of SF/IRA protesting was that those commiting crimes and atrocities had stopped and "gone away".

It wasn't me!

Here's a new perspective.

I don't have any major objection to killing people in pursuit of an objective, if it's an effective route to take. However, one of the problems with the Northern Irish saga was that violence accomplished nothing. If it had, I'd agree it were the right thing to do, from a political standpoint. Neither side ever properly eradicated the other. Only the British could have won ultimately, but never committed enough to stand a chance of properly suppressing the IRA.

So, the murder of civilians by all sides was a waste, because it never accomplished anything. It never suppressed the Northern Irish or discouraged the British. Attacks on "legitimate" targets (saying they are doesn't make them so; strategic importance does) were also ineffectual. So the Northern Irish conflict doesn't bother me because it was a waste of lives, but because it was terribly ineffectual government and a waste of time. There's a lot to be said for Machiavellian efficiency.