Sinn Fein/IRA to organise provocative march

Liam Byrne

It wasn't me! wrote: »

...."legitimate" targets.....saying they are doesn't make them so

100% agree.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

So, the murder of civilians by all sides was a waste, because it never accomplished anything

.

100% agree, UP TO; but I'd take out the caveat. There's enough of a grey area about targetting non-civilians (those who've signed up to be involved, on whatever side) without proposing that it's acceptable for ANYONE (Irish or British, army or terrorist) to target a civilian.

There's a lot to be said for Machiavellian efficiency.

PLEASE tell me you're just stirring it ?

McArmalite

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Here's a new perspective.

I don't have any major objection to killing people in pursuit of an objective, if it's an effective route to take. However, one of the problems with the Northern Irish saga was that violence accomplished nothing. If it had, I'd agree it were the right thing to do, from a political standpoint. Neither side ever properly eradicated the other. Only the British could have won ultimately, but never committed enough to stand a chance of properly suppressing the IRA.

So, the murder of civilians by all sides was a waste, because it never accomplished anything. It never suppressed the Northern Irish or discouraged the British. Attacks on "legitimate" targets (saying they are doesn't make them so; strategic importance does) were also ineffectual. So the Northern Irish conflict doesn't bother me because it was a waste of lives, but because it was terribly ineffectual government and a waste of time. There's a lot to be said for Machiavellian efficiency.

"So the Northern Irish conflict doesn't bother me because it was a waste of lives, but because it was terribly ineffectual government and a waste of time. " ??????. A fine moral position I must say. And if it does not bother you, then why write a post on it ??

McArmalite

Liam Byrne wrote: »

TOMASJ said you had, and it's hardly a joking matter.

Please clarify the position so that we know that we're not being sold false promises and subverting justice for nothing.

I cann't speak for Tomasj, but as long as a brit soldier has one foot in Ireland - we'll never go away you know

It wasn't me!

Liam Byrne wrote: »

PLEASE tell me you're just stirring it ?

Not really. The message Machiavelli made in the Prince was that cruelty was justifiable if it made life quieter for everyone else, but should be accomplished quickly, and quietly. It specifically stated that those who are unnecessarily cruel are bad rulers and doomed to failure and revolt. It's the principle that you effect a small dose of violence in order to prevent larger violence, and I believe in that. Morality is absolutely useless in politics. Governments must be amoral.

Liam Byrne

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Not really. The message Machiavelli made in the Prince was that cruelty was justifiable if it made life quieter for everyone else, but should be accomplished quickly, and quietly. It specifically stated that those who are unnecessarily cruel are bad rulers and doomed to failure and revolt. It's the principle that you effect a small dose of violence in order to prevent larger violence, and I believe in that. Morality is absolutely useless in politics. Governments must be amoral.

I was (maybe mistakenly) under the opinion that the aim was to target that "small dose of violence" against perpetrators and those who deserved it, thereby showing others who would try the same that it wouldn't be tolerated, and thereby creating the "life quieter for everyone".

Morality is far from useless, but increasingly - from the U.S. & U.K. invading Iraq, down to our own Government screwing the average Joe while rescuing those with €millions in bonuses using out money - I've got a horrible feeling that you're "right", in the sense that that's what Governments are starting to believe in their out-of-touch arrogance.

Doesn't mean I have to agree with it, though. Moral ground is difficult to earn and - once lost - almost impossible to regain.

By all means use violence against those who've decided to rewrite the rules to suit themselves (i.e. the PC brigade say "treat criminals & prisoners with respect" but never admit that criminals & prisoners should be treated only with the same level of respect that those scum showed their victims) but I'll repeat it again - whether Government or terrorist, violence against innocent people is WRONG and will only stir up victimisation and add to the problem.

Oh yeah - one other thing that I thought of in relation to the "wishful thinking" about the whole island being a "country"; if I say that "Fianna Fail are still in Government", it doesn't mean that it's what I want, but it, too, is stating a FACT, and unpalatable as that might be to some, I shouldn't have my "Irishness" questioned for stating it - even if (after last week) a [relatively majority of] "Irish viewpoint" might be that they don't want it to be true.

It wasn't me!

The violence should be directed against wherever it does the most good, without the trappings of morality to tie down the government. As a rule, you're going to be entirely right. Crush rebellious elements without a shade of mercy and you probably will find people less keen to do it again.

I still believe morality should have no place in government. Ideally, the SAS would have had a higher concentration in Northern Ireland, their intelligence network would have been more efficient and they'd have hunted down dissident elements like rats. The only issue is to do this without impacting inconveniently on the rest of the populace and engendering bitterness.

McArmalite

It wasn't me! wrote: »

The violence should be directed against wherever it does the most good, without the trappings of morality to tie down the government. As a rule, you're going to be entirely right. Crush rebellious elements without a shade of mercy and you probably will find people less keen to do it again.

I still believe morality should have no place in government. Ideally, the SAS would have had a higher concentration in Northern Ireland, their intelligence network would have been more efficient and they'd have hunted down dissident elements like rats. The only issue is to do this without impacting inconveniently on the rest of the populace and engendering bitterness.

" I still believe morality should have no place in government. " A quote from Mein Kampf perhaps ? It seems the failed Austrian painter must have been a particuliar influence on you ? Maybe you think Joe Stalin or Pol Pot did not go far enough ? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It wasn't me!

McArmalite wrote: »

" I still believe morality should have no place in government. " A quote from Mein Kampf perhaps ? It seems the failed Austrian painter must have been a particuliar influence on you ? Maybe you think Joe Stalin or Pol Pot did not go far enough ? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Godwin is **** himself blind there I can see.

Anyway, you're the one who supports IRA campaigns, so I can see irony is something you're less than competent with.

lostexpectation

so is the parade over now? i see there was a few hoax bomb alerts but no major trouble?

lostexpectation

oh the big one is on tmw in belfast

CSC

Will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow in Belfast. If there is trouble/riot it will drag SF back at least 5 years (even if it is dissidents who organise it)

TOMASJ

lostexpectation wrote: »

so is the parade over now? i see there was a few hoax bomb alerts but no major trouble?

Yes some of the numerous other "celebrations" have taken place with little incident,
the main coat trailing by the brits does not take place unto tomorrow.

Serenity Now!

McArmalite wrote: »

I cann't speak for Tomasj, but as long as a brit soldier has one foot in Ireland - we'll never go away you know

Who's "we"?
You post that like some form of street-cred accompanies a claim to be one of those c0cknockers.
You'd probably sh*t yourself if anything manufactured by Armalite went off near you.

TOMASJ

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Who's "we"?
You post that like some form of street-cred accompanies a claim to be one of those c0cknockers.
You'd probably sh*t yourself if anything manufactured by Armalite went off near you.

McArlamite has been banned from posting so can not answer you,
what's a c0cknockers?

LordSutch

I just Hope the Welcome Home Parade passes off peacefully today, although its a bit of a shame the RAF 'Fly Past' was called off - but I suppose in order to keep the Shinners & 'Erigi' happy some adjustments had to be made? although I understand that in the spirit of compromise the 'Republican counter demonstration' has also been altered (whose Erigi anyway)? . . . . .

A Dub in Glasgo

Camelot wrote: »

(whose Erigi anyway)? . . . . .

http://www.eirigi.org/

LordSutch

Thanks for that Link Dub in Glasgow, seems like 'Eirigi are pretty Hard Core Republicans & maybe even more 'Republican' than Sinn Fein (if such a thing is possible) hopefully their supporters wont 'Kick-Off' today :cool:

A Dub in Glasgo

Could be a combination of pro-BA march and anti-BA march who kick off

CSC

Camelot wrote: »

Thanks for that Link Dub in Glasgow, seems like 'Eirigi are pretty Hard Core Republicans & maybe even more 'Republican' than Sinn Fein (if such a thing is possible) hopefully their supporters wont 'Kick-Off' today :cool:

Eirigi are a splinter group formed by left wing Sinn Fein members who left the party for various reasons. I doubt there is any possibility of trouble from them. More militant groups like the 32CSM will attract potential troublemakers today.

gurramok

Lots of colourful flags of the Union Jack variety today http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7704650.stm

This was a parade for the Unionist community only. It did not represent Irish Nationalists despite some pro-union posters would lead others to think so.

TOMASJ

"celebration" now over only trouble came from Loyalists supporters of the british army who threw bottles and insults at the family's of people murdered by those same british solders, after their tour in Iraq having done -what they do best- murder innocents.

mrtaylor1981

gurramok wrote: »

Lots of colourful flags of the Union Jack variety today http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7704650.stm

This was a parade for the Unionist community only. It did not represent Irish Nationalists despite some pro-union posters would lead others to think so.

I'm sure their were also some southern Irishmen also in the RIR parade. Anyway, Sinn Fein rent a mob didn't get the chance to cause trouble.

CSC

"Rent a mob" - agree or disagree with their politics they have a right to protest in a peaceful manner, which is what I believe they did today.

markok84

CSC wrote: »

"Rent a mob" - agree or disagree with their politics they have a right to protest in a peaceful manner, which is what I believe they did today.

Agreed!! The nationalist protest was completly peaceful, relatives of BA violence held up posters of their murdered loved ones, all the tension came from the "loyalist" side, they were the ones throwing bottles and shouting abscenities.... As always a bunch of tanked up loyalist scumbags, whose only agenda was to antagonise the republicans and cause trouble have gotten away with their display. I bet the news on RTE wont show it like that.

I hope Robinsons "real army" enjoyed their day out today, they didn't quite get the response they were looking for from the republican side.

Poccington

markok84 wrote: »

Agreed!! The nationalist protest was completly peaceful, relatives of BA violence held up posters of their murdered loved ones, all the tension came from the "loyalist" side, they were the ones throwing bottles and shouting abscenities.... As always a bunch of tanked up loyalist scumbags, whose only agenda was to antagonise the republicans and cause trouble have gotten away with their display. I bet the news on RTE wont show it like that.

I hope Robinsons "real army" enjoyed their day out today, they didn't quite get the response they were looking for from the republican side.

Good to see Gerry's face in the crowd, never one to miss an opportunity to show how much of a hardcore nationalist he is :rolleyes:

TOMASJ

mrtaylor1981 wrote: »

I'm sure their were also some southern Irishmen also in the RIR parade. Anyway, Sinn Fein rent a mob didn't get the chance to cause trouble.

saw one "proud Irishman " a Lutinent Steve Byrne from Limerick interviewed on RTE hope he is happy with his achivment today, with his Loyalist chums.

Poccington

TOMASJ wrote: »

saw one "proud Irishman " a Lutinent Steve Byrne from Limerick interviewed on RTE hope he is happy with his achivment today, with his Loyalist chums.

I'd say he's very proud and I can guarantee he has quite a few nationalist chums as well

The man just survived a tour of duty in a very hostile AO. I'd fully expect him to be delighted and I'm delighted to see an Irishman come home in one piece.

gurramok

mrtaylor1981 wrote: »

I'm sure their were also some southern Irishmen also in the RIR parade.

Yes, they are traitors in my view. Of all armies and of all the regiments they join, they joined the 'reformed' UDR. They chose to swear allegiance to a foreign queen and state, they've forfeited their right of any sympathy from this state.

Just hope they don't expect to come back and have a welcome parade parading their flags along with their loyalist supporters down here!

Poccington wrote:

The man just survived a tour of duty in a very hostile AO. I'd fully expect him to be delighted and I'm delighted to see an Irishman come home in one piece.

He signed on the dotted line to go to a foreign army to fight for that foreign army in a foreign country, that's his pot luck if he gets killed or not.

Lots of other careers he could have chosen.

Poccington

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, they are traitors in my view. Of all armies and of all the regiments they join, they joined the 'reformed' UDR. They chose to swear allegiance to a foreign queen and state, they've forfeited their right of any sympathy from this state.

Just hope they don't expect to come back and have a welcome parade parading their flags along with their loyalist supporters down here!



He signed on the dotted line to go to a foreign army to fight for that foreign army in a foreign country, that's his pot luck if he gets killed or not.

Lots of other careers he could have chosen.

There was many other careers he could've chosen but none would be quite as rewarding or exciting as being a soldier. Many lads from the South join the Brits because it offers an opportunity to serve in places that the Defence Forces doesn't. I've spoken to quite a few lads from the RIR and the Irish Guards that hail from the South and all said they didn't take the oath to the Queen seriously.

I personally applaud those lads for doing a job that a whole lotta people who speak about how they're tyrants, traitors etc. wouldn't do for their own country nevermind a foreign one.

gurramok

Poccington wrote: »

There was many other careers he could've chosen but none would be quite as rewarding or exciting as being a soldier. Many lads from the South join the Brits because it offers an opportunity to serve in places that the Defence Forces doesn't. I've spoken to quite a few lads from the RIR and the Irish Guards that hail from the South and all said they didn't take the oath to the Queen seriously.

I personally applaud those lads for doing a job that a whole lotta people who speak about how they're tyrants, traitors etc. wouldn't do for their own country nevermind a foreign one.

Does Lizzy know they are conmen then?

Lets see..

They could of joined the Irish army and be in Chad/'name your region' right now.

They could of joined the American army/marines, they are everywhere all over the globe for plenty of adventure activities.

They could of joined the French foreign legion or go fight in some African war as mercenaries, oh wait...that's what they are if they treat their new oath to Lizzy as dirt?

Those lads knew well what involved joining the RIR with all the historical baggage as well as present but peaceful hostilities still ongoing as seen today the RIR/Irish Guards been cheered on ONLY by loyalists.

It appears they were not too bright in the brains dept.