Sinn Fein/IRA to organise provocative march

TOMASJ

Was any of those 200 lads from the RIR involved in the invasion of Ireland? No didn't think so.

Wouldn't think there is anyone around now that was involved in the initial invasion of Ireland,
those 200 lads were involved in the invasion of two other countries, Iraq & Afghanistan
why come to the very 1st country that the brits invaded Ireland, to celebrate the skulduggery they got up to in Iraq & Afghanistan

TOMASJ

Poccington wrote: »

Osama is dead?

Any credible proof?

Yea did you not hear, the guys who said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq said so,
Therefore its true

Poccington

TOMASJ wrote: »

Yea did you not hear, the guys who said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq said so,
Therefore its true

So you've no proof?

Ok.

Poccington

TOMASJ wrote: »

Wouldn't think there is anyone around now that was involved in the initial invasion of Ireland,
those 200 lads were involved in the invasion of two other countries, Iraq & Afghanistan
why come to the very 1st country that the brits invaded Ireland, to celebrate the skulduggery they got up to in Iraq & Afghanistan

Dflonep was the one that brought up the Brits invading Ireland, not me. I just asked if any of the 200 had anything to do with the invasion of Ireland which they quite blatantly didn't.... So therefore there was no reason to bring up the invasion in the firstplace. Except to do a bit of Brit bashing of course.

As for Iraq and Afghanistan do you have any proof that the 200 lads that wanted to parade were involved in any "skullduggery"? Or do you wish to hold them responsible for the actions of a small number of troops just because they're Brits?

EuskalHerria

Poccington wrote: »

So you've no proof?

Ok.

Well seing at as at the time of the 9/11 attacks he had uncurable cancer (of the stomach or kidneys if i remember correctly) and most experts agree he is indeed dead. besides the burden to prove he is alive as a means of some how justifying what the RIR are doing in afghanistan is on you not me.

Poccington

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Well seing at as at the time of the 9/11 attacks he had uncurable cancer (of the stomach or kidneys if i remember correctly) and most experts agree he is indeed dead. besides the burden to prove he is alive as a means of some how justifying what the RIR are doing in afghanistan is on you not me.

Which experts are these exactly?

If Osama is dead or not has nothing to do with "justifying" what the Royal Irish are doing. I just want to know how people know he's definitely dead, rather than referring to "Experts" and pure speculation.

TOMASJ

Poccington wrote: »

Dflonep was the one that brought up the Brits invading Ireland, not me. I just asked if any of the 200 had anything to do with the invasion of Ireland which they quite blatantly didn't.... So therefore there was no reason to bring up the invasion in the firstplace. Except to do a bit of Brit bashing of course.

As for Iraq and Afghanistan do you have any proof that the 200 lads that wanted to parade were involved in any "skullduggery"? Or do you wish to hold them responsible for the actions of a small number of troops just because they're Brits

?

Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment,
the IRA had a ceasefire 12 years ago, if they were to have a celebration parade for that ceasefire trough Belfast with only young lads 20 years and below,
Who could could not have been involved in any of the Norths troubles as they were children when the IRA were active ,
would that be ok with all the pro brit posters on the board,

TOMASJ

Poccington wrote: »

So you've no proof?

Ok

So there should have been no war as it was illegal,
therefore no call for parade in Belfast for the destruction and murder in Iraq and an illegal invasion by a poodle army.;)
OK

Poccington

TOMASJ wrote: »

Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment,
the IRA had a ceasefire 12 years ago, if they were to have a celebration parade for that ceasefire trough Belfast with only young lads 20 years and below,
Who could could not have been involved in any of the Norths troubles as they were children when the IRA were active ,
would that be ok with all the pro brit posters on the board,

I'm not seeing how such a situation would be the same as 200 lads just back from a Overseas mission?

The parade has nothin to do with Brit occupaion, terrorism, or lads celebrating something that happened years before them. It's 200 lads that wanted to hold a parade on their return from Overseas. Not quite the same as a load of young lads wanting to celebrate a ceasefire that happened years before them.

So not quite the best of comparisons.

Poccington

TOMASJ wrote: »

Poccington wrote: »

So there should have been no war as it was illegal,
therefore no call for parade in Belfast for the destruction and murder in Iraq and an illegal invasion by a poodle army.;)
OK

What about Afghanistan where the majority of the lads would have served? That wasn't an illegal war. So therefore let the lads have the parade.

As for the Brits being a poodle army... I'd hate to see what you refer to most other armed forces since the Brits are some of the best trained troops in the world

Firefly Fan

If it was a parade to celebrate peace, I'm all for it.
If its a parade to celebrate an illegal war and subsequently, occupation, I'm against it.

the_syco

EuskalHerria wrote: »

I Have never ever heard of PIRA marching down the street?:eek: That would condradict their rule on "keeping quiet"

You never see the way they march in full "uniform" when one of their own dies?

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

When will that be? When all the oil is gone?

When they start to get the oil? Seriously: the oil price only went up when they invaded.

TOMASJ

Poccington wrote: »

TOMASJ wrote: »

What about Afghanistan where the majority of the lads would have served? That wasn't an illegal war. So therefore let the lads have the parade.

As for the Brits being a poodle army... I'd hate to see what you refer to most other armed forces since the Brits are some of the best trained troops in the world

So you are admitting that the invasion of Iraq and the following war where the 200 lad served was illegal,
that would make the occupation army terrorists (inc the 200 RIR lads)
now you wouldn't want to be bringing 200 terrorist to Belfast to gloat about an illegal terrorist war. "would you"

TOMASJ

the_syco wrote: »

You never see the way they march in full "uniform" when one of their own dies

That's called a Funeral never saw any posts objecting to a RIR funeral

Allah Hu Akbar

the_syco wrote: »

You never see the way they march in full "uniform" when one of their own dies?

When they start to get the oil? Seriously: the oil price only went up when they invaded.

Yeah and ask yourself why the price went up? I mean Iraq wasn't allowed to export oil anyways so why was it the price went up? Supply and demand :rolleyes:

Maybe you should do abit of looking up about the pipelines going from Iraq
to Israel!!

Funny the way Shell got a 4 billion deal for LNG only last month, wonder where all that goes? Because Iraq isn't getting it..

Poccington

TOMASJ wrote: »

Poccington wrote: »

TOMASJ wrote: »

So you are admitting that the invasion of Iraq and the following war where the 200 lad served was illegal,
that would make the occupation army terrorists (inc the 200 RIR lads)
now you wouldn't want to be bringing 200 terrorist to Belfast to gloat about an illegal terrorist war. "would you"

No actually I support the war in Iraq. However, it's quite obvious you believe it's illegal so I feel no need to try force what I believe in on you.

I don't believe the RIR are in any way terrorists in the same way I wouldn't considered the Allies terrorists even though they have acts such as the bombing of Dresden to their name.

dlofnep

Poccington wrote: »

Was any of those 200 lads from the RIR involved in the invasion of Ireland? No didn't think so.

It's a moot point. Read the context of my argument. I was asked in regards to Osama Bin Laden attacking Ireland - Where the great and wonderful British troops were defending us. I pointed out that Osama was or never will be a threat to Ireland as we keep to ourselves and that infact, the only army to ever be a threat to Ireland in the past was infact the British army. So regardless of the RIR troops had a part it in, they are apart of a greater evil - and that is the British army.

Poccington wrote: »

Name the 50 please. I'd be very interested to hear them, as I'm sure you're quite the expert on the military capabilities of foreign nations.

I do know that Iraq was accused of having weapons of mass destruction, but none were ever found. Meanwhile, in North Korea - they were flaunting their nuclear arsenal around - What did Britain do about it? Nothing, that's right. Iraq was at no point a threat to Britain or the US. I would consider Russia, China & North Korea a greater threat to world-peace if they were provoked enough to attack. It was all a lie, to attempt to engage the public in support for an immoral war on the Iraqi people. You know it and I know it.

Poccington wrote: »

Eye witness reports from Iraqi civilians? I'm sure none of those folk could ever tell a lie.

Oh, so all the British soldiers are noble and all Iraqis are compulsive liars, right? You're sickening. I have documented numerous reports on human rights abuses by British military - Why don't you go have a read of them instead of trying to categorise all Iraqi civilians as liars in an attempt to make a point.

Poccington wrote: »

As for civilian deaths, I'll let you in on a little secret.... Civilians die in war. It's not a nice thing but it happens.

Right so, you've no problems with the civilians who died at the hands of the IRA or Loyalist paramilitaries then I take it? After, "civilians die in war".

And yes, to an extent - there is civilian casualties. But that doesn't explain the numerous reports which stated categorically that unnecessary civilian life was lost. Using disgusting weaponry like cluster bombs doesn't help either, now does it?

I have resources to backup my claims, even from British news sources.

Poor planning, air strikes by coalition forces and a "climate of violence" have led to more than 100,000 extra deaths in Iraq, scientists claim.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

The use of cluster munitions in populated areas caused more civilian casualties than any other factor in the coalition´s conduct of major military operations in March and April, Human Rights Watch said. U.S. and British forces used almost 13,000 cluster munitions, containing nearly 2 million submunitions, that killed or wounded more than 1,000 civilians.

Source: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/12/12/iraq6582.htm

Enjoy.

TOMASJ

Poccington wrote: »

TOMASJ wrote: »

Poccington wrote: »

No actually I support the war in Iraq. However, it's quite obvious you believe it's illegal so I feel no need to try force what I believe in on you.

I don't believe the RIR are in any way terrorists in the same way I wouldn't considered the Allies terrorists even though they have acts such as the bombing of Dresden to their name

.

Sorry
to point out the obvious Poccington, but just because you support the war in Iraq does not change the fact that it is an illegal war,
which in turn makes those who took part terrorists. (inc the 200 RIR lads) who want to coat trail through Belfast.;)

McArmalite

Zand wrote: »

Sinn Fein/IRA are going to organize a provocative march on the very day that the Royal Irish Regiment are to have a homecoming parade through Belfast city centre. They have applied to the Parades Commission for a so called anti war demonstration of up to 500 people on the day 200 RIR return for a homecoming after their peace keeping tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

These brave young men and women will be welcomed by decent who know they have a very difficult job to do and do it in the most professional manner. I'm sure the vast majority of people will agree the RIR and indeed the rest of British Army, have suffered enough trying to bring some peace and order over there, without the terrorist layabouts who support Sinn Fein/IRA insulting them on their homecoming ??

http://www3.u.tv/news/LocalNews/index.asp?id=91655

Eirigi are organising their people, Republican Sinn Fein will surely be going. A few of us may go up on the train from Dublin on an unoffical protest , anyone want details I'll mail them.

McArmalite

Poccington wrote: »

Was any of those 200 lads from the RIR involved in the invasion of Ireland? No didn't think so.

And were the brits killed by the 'goodie' IRA ( 1916 - 1921) " involved in the invasion of Ireland " ??

Poccington wrote: »

As for civilian deaths, I'll let you in on a little secret.... Civilians die in war. It's not a nice thing but it happens. It happened in WW1, it happened in WW2, it happened in Vietnam, it happened in North Korea, it happened with the Ruskies in Afghanistan, it happened in the 1st Gulf War and it will continue to happen in every war from now until the end of time. It's not nice but it's inevitable.

Yes and the same could be said of Birmingham pub bombings, Enniskillen etc though in the case of Birmingham - telephones that the IRA were to use to warn the police were vadalised, by the time they got the warning thru the cops arrived too late and bingo.

Enniskillen - bomb planted but failed to go off as brit patrol was passing by. Bomb set off by brit scrambling systems ( brit patrols used to carry an electronic device mounted on a back pack to which snet out random signals to try and activate expolsives before patrol was near ) as people waiting for brit memorial to the war criminals of the Empire etc

Yes indeed " Civilians die in war....It's not nice but it's inevitable "

Fratton Fred

So nice that there are so many new posters involved in this thread, also nice there are so many peace loving people too.

This thread has managed to achieve new lows for this board.

sovtek

Zand wrote: »

Their just soldiers obeying orders, blame the politicians for creating the mess.

That hasn't been an excuse since the Nuremburg Tribunals.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

I do know that Iraq was accused of having weapons of mass destruction, but none were ever found. Meanwhile, in North Korea - they were flaunting their nuclear arsenal around - What did Britain do about it? Nothing, that's right. Iraq was at no point a threat to Britain or the US. I would consider Russia, China & North Korea a greater threat to world-peace if they were provoked enough to attack. It was all a lie, to attempt to engage the public in support for an immoral war on the Iraqi people. You know it and I know it.

Actually i think you'll find Britain, france and Germany did quite a lot about it, but I don't expect you to notice as it happened in that place you appear to know nothing about, it's called the "outside world".

If you go onto google earth and search for Ireland, then pan out. you will see this big round thing called "The World", it is a lot bigger than ireland, much bigger. Then if you carry on panning out (Not sure of google will allow it, but try) you will see this thing called "The Sun". You may be able to see that the "World" revolves around the "Sun", not Ireland. You may also see just how small and not all that important Ireland actually is. This is why it has not yet appeared on the Al Qeada radar.

stovelid

McArmalite wrote: »

Yes and the same could be said of Birmingham pub bombings, Enniskillen etc though in the case of Birmingham - telephones that the IRA were to use to warn the police were vadalised, by the time they got the warning thru the cops arrived too late and bingo.

Enniskillen - bomb planted but failed to go off as brit patrol was passing by. Bomb set off by brit scrambling systems ( brit patrols used to carry an electronic device mounted on a back pack to which snet out random signals to try and activate expolsives before patrol was near ) as people waiting for brit memorial to the war criminals of the Empire etc

Yes indeed " Civilians die in war....It's not nice but it's inevitable "

I see, so lets get this clear:

The British police, the army and the RUC are completely compromised in their dealings with Republicans. Check.

On occasion, said groups have even resorted to dirty intelligence and counter-terrorism tricks which have resulted in civilian casualties. Check.

As a result, it is clear that said groups don't really give a sh*t about Joe Civillan. Check.

IRA regularly acknowledge that said groups don't really give a sh*t about Joe Civillan. Check.

IRA plant gigantic bombs in public areas and explicitly trust the goodwill, probity and professionalism of said groups to relay confusing bomb warnings to innocent citizens. Very Much Not A Check.

IRA secretly do not care about the veracity and usefulness of bomb warnings because the civilians are either Brits (Brimingham), dirty, mostly-Prod, Cenotaph-huggers (Eniskillen), or factored war collateral (General). Check.

JWAD

McArmalite wrote: »

Yes and the same could be said of Birmingham pub bombings, Enniskillen etc though in the case of Birmingham - telephones that the IRA were to use to warn the police were vadalised, by the time they got the warning thru the cops arrived too late and bingo.

Enniskillen - bomb planted but failed to go off as brit patrol was passing by. Bomb set off by brit scrambling systems ( brit patrols used to carry an electronic device mounted on a back pack to which snet out random signals to try and activate expolsives before patrol was near ) as people waiting for brit memorial to the war criminals of the Empire etc

:rolleyes:
How typical...........

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So nice that there are so many new posters involved in this thread, also nice there are so many peace loving people too.

This thread has managed to achieve new lows for this board.

Because it criticises your beloved British army? Heh.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Actually i think you'll find Britain, france and Germany did quite a lot about it, but I don't expect you to notice as it happened in that place you appear to know nothing about, it's called the "outside world".

Did quite alot about what? Care to offer a rebuttal for the argument which I placed up in the air, or are you going to dance around it?

1000's of civilians are dead at the hands of British troops, not including the civilians they killed here in Ireland. Nothing will ever change that, and no argument you could ever conjure up will excuse it.

A war created on the premise of a lie, while other more threatening nations got away scot-free.

The only country to attack Ireland in recent history is Britain, but yet Osama is somehow a threat to us - a peaceful nation.

Oh, not to mention the collection of articles and references I posted for your viewing pleasure in regards to breaches of human rights by the British army.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If you go onto google earth and search for Ireland, then pan out. you will see this big round thing called "The World", it is a lot bigger than ireland, much bigger. Then if you carry on panning out (Not sure of google will allow it, but try) you will see this thing called "The Sun". You may be able to see that the "World" revolves around the "Sun", not Ireland. You may also see just how small and not all that important Ireland actually is. This is why it has not yet appeared on the Al Qeada radar.

Cute Fred, cute. I'm well aware of the significance of Ireland in terms of a global agenda. But if you're trying to dispute that Osama Bin Laden has no interest in Ireland or never would have because stay out of other people's business and don't try to dictate how the world runs, then you're severely wrong.

Weak debate Fred, even by your standards.

JWAD

dlofnep wrote: »

The only country to attack Ireland in recent history is Britain, but yet Osama is somehow a threat to us - a peaceful nation

You really believe that this country is immune to any attacks of whatever degree? A tad naive methinks, especially when the country per se doesn't necessarily have to be the target.

'Peaceful' or 'Neutral' Ireland actually has its part to play in rendition flights and non-disclosure of what uses its airspace and air facilities and in turn is a contributor to what goes on.

Since you mention Usama bin Ladin, given all the doctored video footage that gets released from time to time, it looks like he's dead. Or else he's one hell of a Grecian 2000 customer and just shy when referring to current events by blanking the screen in his clips.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Because it criticises your beloved British army? Heh.

No, because this starts off about one thing and ends up with what the British Army have done in Northern Ireland.

Its pretty ****ing boring actually, lets see who can insult who the most without getting banned.

Run_to_da_hills

My advice is do not attend this march unless you want to be marked. Belfast just like Dublin and London is covered in CCTV surveylance cameras, many using high definition 3D facial recognition with pan tilt and zoom. If this march blows out of proportion or if there is future trouble the UK authorities have you on record.

Living in the UK particularly London is an now an Orwellian hell compared to what it was like living there back in the 70ies & 80ies. The UK cops can track anyone down in hours from Digiital records, Oystercard, CCTV, ANPR and very soon your chipped ID card or passport when you cross the border from Ireland.

stovelid

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Living in the UK particularly London is an now an Orwellian hell compared to what it was like living there back in the 70ies & 80ies. The UK cops can track anyone down in hours from Digiital records, Oystercard, CCTV, ANPR and very soon your chipped ID card or passport when you cross the border from Ireland.

Hopefully the overabundance of garish Celtic shirts in the cavalcade will wreak havoc with the CCTV.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, because this starts off about one thing and ends up with what the British Army have done in Northern Ireland.

Its pretty ****ing boring actually, lets see who can insult who the most without getting banned.

It was in rebuttal to Osama attacking Ireland. So it was in perfect context. If you actually rad my posts, you'd see it was primarly directed at their maiming of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. I see you conveniently skipped past that.

And who's insulting? I'm just documenting the history of the British army. If you don't like it, that's just unlucky. If I could go back in time and change the countless innocent civilians the British army killed, then I would. But I can't. So you're going to have to deal with it.

And once again, I see you have STILL yet to address the finer documented points I highlighted. You've resorted to the last ditch effort of labelling this as an agenda against the British army so you don't have to actually debate their breaches of human rights.

dlofnep

stovelid wrote: »

Hopefully the overabundance of garish Rangers shirts in the cavalcade will wreak havoc in Manchester.

Here, I fixed it for you.

rcecil

Let's see: Tick these boxes

1. Highly paid bureaucrats in it just for themselves .... NO

2. Very Green, standing up for fishermen and against polluters ... YES

3. In the pockets of rip off banks and corporates. NO

4. Opposes the War in Iraq and Afghanistan ... YES

5. Supported Lisbon Treaty NO

6. Stopped a War in the North ... YES

7. Good Friday Agreement provides peaceful reunification YES

8. Volunteer driven working class party ... YES

9. Works for REAL universal healthcare. YES

If the stands above are where you're at, then it's time to give Sinn Fein another look. www.sinnfein.ie

Fratton Fred

oh ****, here we go then.

where are these "Thousands" of civilian deaths, are they hiding somewhere with these SAS death squads that keep marauding around Londonderry killing children you like to tell us about?

The last i saw, there was a civil war between Shia and Sunni in Iraq that was accounting for all the deaths, unless it was British soldiers walking into market places and blowing up themselves up. OK, the instability was caused by an illegal invasion by Britain, America, Australia, Spain etc (There was more than the Brits there, but lets not worry about that because they're not Brits eh?" but the ongoing bloodshed was mainly down to interacial fighting, something that the caolition could not forsee, could you? Still, I suppose we should ignore all the deaths, tortures, attempted genocide etc by Sadam shall we, I mean they're not irish and he's not British, so it doesn't matter right?

And where are the civilian deaths in Afghanistan? There have been a number of fatal errors by all sodes, but the majority of civilian deaths are coming from the people ISAF is there to fight. Do you not support the UN? do you not believe in their cause? they issued a request to NATO to provide an International security Assistance force, of which Britain makes up a part. What the **** are they doing wrong there?

The same bleeding heart liberals that are bleeting on about the war in Afghanistan are the same ones who were bleating on about the west intervening when the Taliban were in power and stoning women to death for walking out of their front door without their husbands.

Now then Dlof, lets get on to the topic at hand, Sinn Fein's march. Do you find it totally hypocritical for an organisation that has the blood of innocent people on its hands to organise something like this? an organisation that has been not only openly supporting people who have been convicted of murdering children, but also people who have been found guilty of riding rough shod over another countries sovereignity?

Fratton Fred

rcecil wrote: »

Let's see: Tick these boxes

1. Highly paid bureaucrats in it just for themselves .... NO

2. Very Green, standing up for fishermen and against polluters ... YES

3. In the pockets of rip off banks and corporates. NO

4. Opposes the War in Iraq and Afghanistan ... YES

5. Supported Lisbon Treaty NO

6. Stopped a War in the North ... YES

7. Good Friday Agreement provides peaceful reunification YES

8. Volunteer driven working class party ... YES

9. Works for REAL universal healthcare. YES

If the stands above are where you're at, then it's time to give Sinn Fein another look. www.sinnfein.ie

you forgot to mention supporting murderers, criminals and drug smugglers.

EuskalHerria

Well 13 pages on i think i'll try and go over this one more time with people still left here.

Firstly Sinn fein are not setting up/organising/ taking part in this protest agaisnt the RIR.

Secondly there will be a peaceful demonstration against the RIR march through irish streets but the protest is not primarily against the RIR it is against the war in iraq and the war in afghanistan. Simple as that.

TONY T

They have no need to be on our Land. Correct - send them to England they are doing thier bidding. They plundered many nations, divided many lands..as the song says. It's the most dipicting song of a ruthless island of tirants.

Fratton Fred

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Well 13 pages on i think i'll try and go over this one more time with people still left here.

Firstly Sinn fein are not setting up/organising/ taking part in this protest agaisnt the RIR.

Secondly there will be a peaceful demonstration against the RIR march through irish streets but the protest is not primarily against the RIR it is against the war in iraq and the war in afghanistan. Simple as that.

Peaceful demonstration against war is never a bad thing. Who is organising it?

With regards the RIR parading, there will be a good turn out, people always have a lot of empathy with lads returning from war, whether they agree with the war or not.

EuskalHerria

Peaceful demonstration against war is never a bad thing. Who is organising it?

I am not sure of the groups that will be attending or the plans for the demonstration all i know is that sinn fein have pulled out long ago because it may raise tensions at ongoing policing meetings. But i ahve a feeling that this demonstration will not be as "provacative" if sinn feins name is not attached?

With regards the RIR parading, there will be a good turn out, people always have a lot of empathy with lads returning from war, whether they agree with the war or not

Of course there will be people there who will support the lads no matter what, but thats part and parcel of the problem within their mind sets. The war in iraq is and was unjust and clearly for oil, if there was protests from all the empathisers that will welcome these lads back, then there would be more lads to welcome home?

dlofnep

Oh Freddy Freddy. You're easy pickings. Let's begin. Although I've already point out and referenced everything already, I'll do so again. Just for you.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

where are these "Thousands" of civilian deaths, are they hiding somewhere with these SAS death squads that keep marauding around Derry killing children you like to tell us about?

Firstly, it's documented fact that British troops murdered children in Derry. I find the idea that you're playing it off as if it's a conspiracy theory to be disgusting.

Now onto Iraq.

British troops ‘tortured and killed Iraqi civilians seized after battle’

The Attorney-General was urged yesterday to call in Scotland Yard to investigate allegations that British troops tortured and killed a number of Iraqi civilians seized after an ambush at a checkpoint in southern Iraq in May 2004.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3419662.ece

UK armed forces in Iraq have shot and killed Iraqi civilians, including an eight-year-old girl and a guest at a wedding celebration, in situations where there was no apparent threat to themselves or others, says a new report from Amnesty International.

Source: Amnesty International (http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/amnesty.htm)

Poor planning, air strikes by coalition forces and a "climate of violence" have led to more than 100,000 extra deaths in Iraq, scientists claim.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The last i saw, there was a civil war between Shia and Sunni in Iraq that was accounting for all the deaths, unless it was British soldiers walking into market places and blowing up themselves up.

The last YOU saw? Were in you Iraq documenting the war? I doubt you can see anything outside the scope of the British propaganda machine to be honest. If you really wanted to see, then you would have already see the report made by Amnesty international in regards to human rights abuses by British soldiers.

The Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is facing accusations that he told the Army its soldiers were not bound by the Human Rights Act when arresting, detaining and interrogating Iraqi prisoners.

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/human-rights-in-iraq-a-case-to-answer-450823.html

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OK, the instability was caused by an illegal invasion by Britain, America, Australia, Spain etc (There was more than the Brits there, but lets not worry about that because they're not Brits eh?"

The thread at the moment is in the context of British soldiers, which is why I am addressing British soldiers. I have condemned American soldiers just the same and they are no better and just as responsible. But that doesn't change the fact for one second that British soldiers have killed countless civilians in Iraq and Ireland.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And where are the civilian deaths in Afghanistan? There have been a number of fatal errors by all sodes, but the majority of civilian deaths are coming from the people ISAF is there to fight.

The use of carpet bombing strategies ensures that civilian life will be lost, despite heavy pressure from human rights watchdogs condemning it. This is documented fact.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you not support the UN? do you not believe in their cause? they issued a request to NATO to provide an International security Assistance force, of which Britain makes up a part. What the **** are they doing wrong there?

I support the mission in Afghanistan, but I do not support the tactics used which results in heavy civilian death. For all the moaning you do about civilian death lost at the hands of the IRA, you're quick to give the OK for the civilian death as a result of the British forces.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The same bleeding heart liberals that are bleeting on about the war in Afghanistan are the same ones who were bleating on about the west intervening when the Taliban were in power and stoning women to death for walking out of their front door without their husbands.

Incorrect.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Now then Dlof, lets get on to the topic at hand, Sinn Fein's march. Do you find it totally hypocritical for an organisation that has the blood of innocent people on its hands to organise something like this? an organisation that has been not only openly supporting people who have been convicted of murdering children, but also people who have been found guilty of riding rough shod over another countries sovereignity?

No, I don't think it's hypocritical. It makes perfect sense. Just like Ireland was oppressed by a foreign nation and had it's citizens murdered by British forces, the same exact thing is happening in Iraq and the documented reports I outlined earlier back that up. But like I said before, it only matters to you when the IRA was killing civilians - But when British troops murder children in the North or in Iraq, you're quick to make excuses.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Firstly, it's documented fact that British troops murdered children in Derry. I find the idea that you're playing it off as if it's a conspiracy theory to be disgusting.

OK, lets get away from the republican propaganda.

There was Bloody Sunday, no excuses for that, it was an attrocity, one which hopefully will be addressed properly once the enquiry is finished.

Now then, tell me more about these death squads you keep on about and I don;t mean killing the few murdering scum who were on their way to commit murder.

dlofnep wrote: »

The last YOU saw? Were in you Iraq documenting the war? I doubt you can see anything outside the scope of the British propaganda machine to be honest. If you really wanted to see, then you would have already see the report made by Amnesty international in regards to human rights abuses by British soldiers.

The use of carpet bombing strategies ensures that civilian life will be lost, despite heavy pressure from human rights watchdogs condemning it. This is documented fact.

I support the mission in Afghanistan, but I do not support the tactics used which results in heavy civilian death. For all the moaning you do about civilian death lost at the hands of the IRA, you're quick to give the OK for the civilian death as a result of the British forces.

Sorry, I'm not that big on the human rights of prisoners, especially in a war like this.

If I was at a checkpoint and someone tried killing me, I'd give them a kicking if I caught them as well and bodies get mutilated when bayonets get drawn, its a very brave call by whoever is in charge as it cuts down enormously the amount of collatoral damage in a fire fight by the way.

There's also the small matter of compensation in cases like this.

dlofnep wrote: »

No, I don't think it's hypocritical. It makes perfect sense. Just like Ireland was oppressed by a foreign nation and had it's citizens murdered by British forces, the same exact thing is happening in Iraq and the documented reports I outlined earlier back that up. But like I said before, it only matters to you when the IRA was killing civilians - But when British troops murder children in the North or in Iraq, you're quick to make excuses.

Incorrect, it only matters to you when it is the British Army.

Do you condemn the IRA for intentionally killing innocent people and therefore Sinn Fein for defending them?

Easy question, try not to dance around it this time.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OK, lets get away from the republican propaganda.

Oh, the thread isn't going the way you like it - is it? I see. FYI: It's not propaganda, but merely fact. A fact relating to the topic at hand.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There was Bloody Sunday, no excuses for that, it was an attrocity, one which hopefully will be addressed properly once the enquiry is finished.

Not to mention the Miami Showband Massacre, documented collusion between British security forces and loyalist terrorists and so forth.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Now then, tell me more about these death squads you keep on about and I don;t mean killing the few murdering scum who were on their way to commit murder.

17 year old children are murdering scum? An 8 year old girl in Iraq was murdering scum? I'd watch what debates you try and get yourself involved with. You'll end up humiliated if you further this one.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not that big on the human rights of prisoners, especially in a war like this.

That's obvious. Although, tell me when an average civilian became a "prisoner".

At least 20 British soldiers are now facing prosecution after coming under "significant suspicion" of involvement in the "deliberate" abuse of Iraqi civilians, The Independent on Sunday can reveal.

Source: The Independent

I can do this all day.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If I was at a checkpoint and someone tried killing me, I'd give them a kicking if I caught them as well and bodies get mutilated when bayonets get drawn, its a very brave call by whoever is in charge as it cuts down enormously the amount of collatoral damage in a fire fight by the way.

Once again I repeat, innocent civilians have been abused. Nothing to do with people trying to kill anyone. Just average Joe Soaps being abused by members of the British forces.

A highly decorated British army officer is facing prosecution for war crimes over the death of an Iraqi civilian beaten to death by his troops, British papers revealed on Sunday, May 22.

Army prosecutors are preparing war crimes charges against Colonel Jorge Mendonca, commanding officer of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, faces an inquiry after the 26-year-old hotel receptionist Baha Mousa died in custody, The Independent on Sunday said.

The United Kingdom's ministry of defence is investigating the possible mistreatment of Iraqi civilians by British soldiers, following the publication of video footage which has come into the possession of the News of the World newspaper. The video shows British troops meting out brutal treatment to four Iraqi youths.

Source: News of the World

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There's also the small matter of compensation in cases like this.

Oh right so, money makes it ok does it? Grand so. You're really doing any justice for your case. The more you post, the more ridiculous your arguments seem.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Incorrect, it only matters to you when it is the British Army.

Wrong.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you condemn the IRA for intentionally killing innocent people and therefore Sinn Fein for defending them?

Where did Sinn Féin defend the IRA for intentionally killing innocent people? Care to back that up with references? I personally have already stated before that I condemn the IRA for any civilians that died as a result of IRA operations. I think I've made this point quite clear on numerous occasions.

Allah Hu Akbar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, because this starts off about one thing and ends up with what the British Army have done in Northern Ireland.

Its pretty ****ing boring actually, lets see who can insult who the most without getting banned.

Boring to you maybe, not to others.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Not to mention the Miami Showband Massacre, documented collusion between British security forces and loyalist terrorists and so forth.

17 year old children are murdering scum? An 8 year old girl in Iraq was murdering scum? I'd watch what debates you try and get yourself involved with. You'll end up humiliated if you further this one.

where did I call kids murdering scum? trying to imply I did is pretty poor, even by your standards

dlofnep wrote: »

That's obvious. Although, tell me when an average civilian became a "prisoner".

Once again I repeat, innocent civilians have been abused. Nothing to do with people trying to kill anyone. Just average Joe Soaps being abused by members of the British forces.
Oh right so, money makes it ok does it? Grand so. You're really doing any justice for your case. The more you post, the more ridiculous your arguments seem.

so we have a case (Which is pretty well documented at the moment) of a man being killed in British custody. This is being investigated and hopefully justice will be served. Still looking for the thousands you talked about though.

On compensation, look at it this way. A man attacks a British army checkpoint, gets shot, captured and thrown into prison. For his troubles, he gets sweet FA apart from prison food.

A man attacks a British army checkpoint, get shot, captured and then gets beaten up, humiliated and runs to the press with stories of abuse and mistreatment, he gets compensation for his troubles.

dlofnep wrote: »

Where did Sinn Féin defend the IRA for intentionally killing innocent people? Care to back that up with references? I personally have already stated before that I condemn the IRA for any civilians that died as a result of IRA operations. I think I've made this point quite clear on numerous occasions.

Carrying the coffins of murderers, calling for the release of prisoners, defending the Columbia three, calling for the name of a street in Dublin to be renamed after a terrorist, shall I go on?

it is no coincidence people call it SF/IRA you know, they are joined at the hip. In fact, I would say that disbanding Sinn Fein (and the DUP in fairness) would speed up the unification of Ireland because the sooner as the terrorists are removed from stormont the sooner people will start to forget (Not that the DUP or SF want people to forget).

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

where did I call kids murdering scum? trying to imply I did is pretty poor, even by your standards

So you accept British forces have murdered innocent children. That's fine. We can move on so.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so we have a case (Which is pretty well documented at the moment) of a man being killed in British custody. This is being investigated and hopefully justice will be served. Still looking for the thousands you talked about though.

We have many cases. Which is entirely my point. Many cases of abuse. This is the point you seem to be missing. I have already sourced a scientific report which documented that 1000's of lifes could have been saved if British troops did not use god awful tactics in their war, where they knew prior to attacking that civilian life lost would be uncontrollable. That's what happens when you use cluster bombs. I have noted many occasions where many civilians have died. It should be substantial enough. Do you really want me to try and reference 1000 seperate instances of abuse by British soldiers? Get real. Do yourself the pleasure.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

On compensation, look at it this way. A man attacks a British army checkpoint, gets shot, captured and thrown into prison. For his troubles, he gets sweet FA apart from prison food.

A man attacks a British army checkpoint, get shot, captured and then gets beaten up, humiliated and runs to the press with stories of abuse and mistreatment, he gets compensation for his troubles.

You seem to be having a really hard time with reading basic sentences. The topic of discussion is civilians. IE: People who are not engaged in war and who are innocent victims of the British war machine. If I gave you 1000 stories of 1000 different deaths, you still wouldn't be satisfied. So instead of trying to defend the British army - Why don't you just admit that they are accountable for the deaths of countless civilians - Whether it be through point blank abuse of civilians, or lack of respect for human life when using cluster bombs. The same result is still there - Civilians die.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Carrying the coffins of murderers, calling for the release of prisoners, defending the Columbia three, calling for the name of a street in Dublin to be renamed after a terrorist, shall I go on?

Excuse me - How is that defending intentional killing of civilians. Defending the "intentional killing of civilians" would be something along the lines of "They were British, so it doesn't matter." I asked you to reference where Sinn Féin has defended the IRA for "intentionally killing innocent civilians". You have not done so.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it is no coincidence people call it SF/IRA you know, they are joined at the hip.

Considering the IRA is no longer in operation, I'd find that hard to believe. Sinn Féin, whether you like to believe it or not is engaged in a political route to Irish Unity. Your beloved British troops however are still over in Iraq abusing civilians. That's the difference. When those scumbag soldiers leave Iraq and stop hassling nations that are of no concern to it - Then we'll talk.

JWAD

dlofnep wrote: »

Source: News of the World

Not jumping in on your little tiff with the other fella, but I had to laugh there.
For someone who is keen to preach, it seems you've a little bit to learn about the media..........

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

So you accept British forces have murdered innocent children. That's fine. We can move on so.

You seem to be having a really hard time with reading basic sentences. The topic of discussion is civilians. IE: People who are not engaged in war and who are innocent victims of the British war machine. If I gave you 1000 stories of 1000 different deaths, you still wouldn't be satisfied. So instead of trying to defend the British army - Why don't you just admit that they are accountable for the deaths of countless civilians - Whether it be through point blank abuse of civilians, or lack of respect for human life when using cluster bombs. The same result is still there - Civilians die.

dlofnep wrote: »

Excuse me - How is that defending intentional killing of civilians. Defending the "intentional killing of civilians" would be something along the lines of "They were British, so it doesn't matter." I asked you to reference where Sinn Féin has defended the IRA for "intentionally killing innocent civilians". You have not done so.

where have I defended the British army for intentionally killing civilians.

you need to take a look at yourself mate. I admit I have been playing devils advocate here, but look at your logic.

It is ok for SF to celebrate murderers because in your eyes, "the phone box had been vandalised" makes it an "Accident" but when the British army accidentally kill someone it is murder?

you have two very different standards. you care nothing for the killing of innocent people, all you care about is scoring points off the British.

dlofnep

JWAD wrote: »

Not jumping in on your little tiff with the other fella, but I had to laugh there.
For someone who is keen to preach, it seems you've a little bit to learn about the media..........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4705482.stm

There's a source from BBC for the same article you are question. I can get you other sources if you like. A quick google on the issue would have saved you embarassment, instead of trying to be witty and jumping on the pedantic wagon.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

where have I defended the British army for intentionally killing civilians.

Where did Sinn Féin? I thought we already came to the conclusion at the start of my post that you agree that the British troops are responsible for countless civilian deaths. So long as you are still in agreeance, then I'll not hold you as a British army apologist.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you need to take a look at yourself mate. I admit I have been playing devils advocate here, but look at your logic.

My logic is fine. And I'm not your "mate".

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It is ok for SF to celebrate murderers because in your eyes, "the phone box had been vandalised" makes it an "Accident" but when the British army accidentally kill someone it is murder?

I'm not following you there. Sinn Féin have never celebrated the murder of innocent civilians. They may celebrate members of the IRA for attacks on British military, but never innocent civilians.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you have two very different standards. you care nothing for the killing of innocent people, all you care about is scoring points off the British.

You keep stating this, but I have shown otherwise. I would like to point out that I've nothing against the "British" people. My qualm is with the British forces. Many fine British people opposed the war in Iraq, just as I do.

Also, I have already stated that I condemn the IRA for any civilians they may have killed. I condemn the American forces for their abuse of Iraqi civilians. I condemn the British army for their abuse of Iraqi & Irish civilians. I condemn George Bush for being a warlord, and Tony Blair for being his puppet. The thing is, I do actually care about the deaths of innocent people.

If you feel that I'm scoring points against the British forces, then you are obviously feeling victimised. That's not my problem Fred. And let me remind you, I'm not the only person who has an agenda against the British forces. Ask yourself, why is that? For me - I have a profound distaste for the British forces - for what they did in Ireland and for what they have done abroad. If I speak against them, it's because I am not exactly their biggest fan. Something drives someone to post on any topic. They wouldn't post on it otherwise, would they?

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Where did Sinn Féin? I thought we already came to the conclusion at the start of my post that you agree that the British troops are responsible for countless civilian deaths. So long as you are still in agreeance, then I'll not hold you as a British army apologist.

of course the British Army have been responsible for the death of civilians, can you name a military that hasn't?

What I would contest is that it is not the thousands you seem to think it is.

Iraq was a nightmare, I'll admit i supported the war at the beginnig, as did a lot of people. What no-one realised is just how horribly wrong it would go. There was mass celebrations when Sadam was ousted, but the subsequant civil war caused an incredible loss of life. I don;t think you can hold the US or British responsible for all of these deaths, as there was a lot of outside influence, all of whom dad their own agenda.

The trouble is, what can you do? if the British and US had jumped ship straight after Sadam was captured what would the death toll have looked like then? It was a horrendous **** up, but I don;t think you can blame the Army, but I believe you can the politicians and the intelligence people.

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm not following you there. Sinn Féin have never celebrated the murder of innocent civilians. They may celebrate members of the IRA for attacks on British military, but never innocent civilians.

Thomas Begley ring any bells?


I'm not feeling victimised, just hacked off with the constant one sided view on things.

The RIR are coming back from a succesful tour of Afghanistan, if people want to protest against war then they should take it to westminster where the politicians are, not take it out on the guys themselves.

There is a hard, dirty job being done in Afghanistan and i believe the guys doing it should be applauded for having the balls to do it, not despised for something they have had no part in.

All this crap in this thread about Osama I dead, what has it got to do with Ireland, we're a peace loving country, its all crap. tdo you honestly think that if Al Qeada had a chance to take down an Aer Lingus plane they wouldn't do it? The only thing protecting Ireland at the moment is that there are still not that many Muslims in this country, therefore there are very few radicalised ones who would carry out such an attack.