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Sinn Fein/IRA to organise provocative march
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Fratton Fred wrote: »No, because this starts off about one thing and ends up with what the British Army have done in Northern Ireland.
Its pretty ****ing boring actually, lets see who can insult who the most without getting banned.
It was in rebuttal to Osama attacking Ireland. So it was in perfect context. If you actually rad my posts, you'd see it was primarly directed at their maiming of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. I see you conveniently skipped past that.
And who's insulting? I'm just documenting the history of the British army. If you don't like it, that's just unlucky. If I could go back in time and change the countless innocent civilians the British army killed, then I would. But I can't. So you're going to have to deal with it.
And once again, I see you have STILL yet to address the finer documented points I highlighted. You've resorted to the last ditch effort of labelling this as an agenda against the British army so you don't have to actually debate their breaches of human rights.0 -
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Let's see: Tick these boxes
1. Highly paid bureaucrats in it just for themselves .... NO
2. Very Green, standing up for fishermen and against polluters ... YES
3. In the pockets of rip off banks and corporates. NO
4. Opposes the War in Iraq and Afghanistan ... YES
5. Supported Lisbon Treaty NO
6. Stopped a War in the North ... YES
7. Good Friday Agreement provides peaceful reunification YES
8. Volunteer driven working class party ... YES
9. Works for REAL universal healthcare. YES
If the stands above are where you're at, then it's time to give Sinn Fein another look. www.sinnfein.ie0 -
oh ****, here we go then.
where are these "Thousands" of civilian deaths, are they hiding somewhere with these SAS death squads that keep marauding around Londonderry killing children you like to tell us about?
The last i saw, there was a civil war between Shia and Sunni in Iraq that was accounting for all the deaths, unless it was British soldiers walking into market places and blowing up themselves up. OK, the instability was caused by an illegal invasion by Britain, America, Australia, Spain etc (There was more than the Brits there, but lets not worry about that because they're not Brits eh?" but the ongoing bloodshed was mainly down to interacial fighting, something that the caolition could not forsee, could you? Still, I suppose we should ignore all the deaths, tortures, attempted genocide etc by Sadam shall we, I mean they're not irish and he's not British, so it doesn't matter right?
And where are the civilian deaths in Afghanistan? There have been a number of fatal errors by all sodes, but the majority of civilian deaths are coming from the people ISAF is there to fight. Do you not support the UN? do you not believe in their cause? they issued a request to NATO to provide an International security Assistance force, of which Britain makes up a part. What the **** are they doing wrong there?
The same bleeding heart liberals that are bleeting on about the war in Afghanistan are the same ones who were bleating on about the west intervening when the Taliban were in power and stoning women to death for walking out of their front door without their husbands.
Now then Dlof, lets get on to the topic at hand, Sinn Fein's march. Do you find it totally hypocritical for an organisation that has the blood of innocent people on its hands to organise something like this? an organisation that has been not only openly supporting people who have been convicted of murdering children, but also people who have been found guilty of riding rough shod over another countries sovereignity?0 -
Let's see: Tick these boxes
1. Highly paid bureaucrats in it just for themselves .... NO
2. Very Green, standing up for fishermen and against polluters ... YES
3. In the pockets of rip off banks and corporates. NO
4. Opposes the War in Iraq and Afghanistan ... YES
5. Supported Lisbon Treaty NO
6. Stopped a War in the North ... YES
7. Good Friday Agreement provides peaceful reunification YES
8. Volunteer driven working class party ... YES
9. Works for REAL universal healthcare. YES
If the stands above are where you're at, then it's time to give Sinn Fein another look. www.sinnfein.ie
you forgot to mention supporting murderers, criminals and drug smugglers.0 -
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Well 13 pages on i think i'll try and go over this one more time with people still left here.
Firstly Sinn fein are not setting up/organising/ taking part in this protest agaisnt the RIR.
Secondly there will be a peaceful demonstration against the RIR march through irish streets but the protest is not primarily against the RIR it is against the war in iraq and the war in afghanistan. Simple as that.0 -
They have no need to be on our Land. Correct - send them to England they are doing thier bidding. They plundered many nations, divided many lands..as the song says. It's the most dipicting song of a ruthless island of tirants.0
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EuskalHerria wrote: »Well 13 pages on i think i'll try and go over this one more time with people still left here.
Firstly Sinn fein are not setting up/organising/ taking part in this protest agaisnt the RIR.
Secondly there will be a peaceful demonstration against the RIR march through irish streets but the protest is not primarily against the RIR it is against the war in iraq and the war in afghanistan. Simple as that.
Peaceful demonstration against war is never a bad thing. Who is organising it?
With regards the RIR parading, there will be a good turn out, people always have a lot of empathy with lads returning from war, whether they agree with the war or not.0 -
Peaceful demonstration against war is never a bad thing. Who is organising it?
I am not sure of the groups that will be attending or the plans for the demonstration all i know is that sinn fein have pulled out long ago because it may raise tensions at ongoing policing meetings. But i ahve a feeling that this demonstration will not be as "provacative" if sinn feins name is not attached?
With regards the RIR parading, there will be a good turn out, people always have a lot of empathy with lads returning from war, whether they agree with the war or not
Of course there will be people there who will support the lads no matter what, but thats part and parcel of the problem within their mind sets. The war in iraq is and was unjust and clearly for oil, if there was protests from all the empathisers that will welcome these lads back, then there would be more lads to welcome home?0 -
Oh Freddy Freddy. You're easy pickings. Let's begin. Although I've already point out and referenced everything already, I'll do so again. Just for you.Fratton Fred wrote: »where are these "Thousands" of civilian deaths, are they hiding somewhere with these SAS death squads that keep marauding around Derry killing children you like to tell us about?
Firstly, it's documented fact that British troops murdered children in Derry. I find the idea that you're playing it off as if it's a conspiracy theory to be disgusting.
Now onto Iraq.British troops ‘tortured and killed Iraqi civilians seized after battle’
The Attorney-General was urged yesterday to call in Scotland Yard to investigate allegations that British troops tortured and killed a number of Iraqi civilians seized after an ambush at a checkpoint in southern Iraq in May 2004.
Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article3419662.eceUK armed forces in Iraq have shot and killed Iraqi civilians, including an eight-year-old girl and a guest at a wedding celebration, in situations where there was no apparent threat to themselves or others, says a new report from Amnesty International.
Source: Amnesty International (http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/amnesty.htm)Poor planning, air strikes by coalition forces and a "climate of violence" have led to more than 100,000 extra deaths in Iraq, scientists claim.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stmFratton Fred wrote: »The last i saw, there was a civil war between Shia and Sunni in Iraq that was accounting for all the deaths, unless it was British soldiers walking into market places and blowing up themselves up.
The last YOU saw? Were in you Iraq documenting the war? I doubt you can see anything outside the scope of the British propaganda machine to be honest. If you really wanted to see, then you would have already see the report made by Amnesty international in regards to human rights abuses by British soldiers.The Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, is facing accusations that he told the Army its soldiers were not bound by the Human Rights Act when arresting, detaining and interrogating Iraqi prisoners.
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/human-rights-in-iraq-a-case-to-answer-450823.htmlFratton Fred wrote: »OK, the instability was caused by an illegal invasion by Britain, America, Australia, Spain etc (There was more than the Brits there, but lets not worry about that because they're not Brits eh?"
The thread at the moment is in the context of British soldiers, which is why I am addressing British soldiers. I have condemned American soldiers just the same and they are no better and just as responsible. But that doesn't change the fact for one second that British soldiers have killed countless civilians in Iraq and Ireland.Fratton Fred wrote: »And where are the civilian deaths in Afghanistan? There have been a number of fatal errors by all sodes, but the majority of civilian deaths are coming from the people ISAF is there to fight.
The use of carpet bombing strategies ensures that civilian life will be lost, despite heavy pressure from human rights watchdogs condemning it. This is documented fact.Fratton Fred wrote: »Do you not support the UN? do you not believe in their cause? they issued a request to NATO to provide an International security Assistance force, of which Britain makes up a part. What the **** are they doing wrong there?
I support the mission in Afghanistan, but I do not support the tactics used which results in heavy civilian death. For all the moaning you do about civilian death lost at the hands of the IRA, you're quick to give the OK for the civilian death as a result of the British forces.Fratton Fred wrote: »The same bleeding heart liberals that are bleeting on about the war in Afghanistan are the same ones who were bleating on about the west intervening when the Taliban were in power and stoning women to death for walking out of their front door without their husbands.
Incorrect.Fratton Fred wrote: »Now then Dlof, lets get on to the topic at hand, Sinn Fein's march. Do you find it totally hypocritical for an organisation that has the blood of innocent people on its hands to organise something like this? an organisation that has been not only openly supporting people who have been convicted of murdering children, but also people who have been found guilty of riding rough shod over another countries sovereignity?
No, I don't think it's hypocritical. It makes perfect sense. Just like Ireland was oppressed by a foreign nation and had it's citizens murdered by British forces, the same exact thing is happening in Iraq and the documented reports I outlined earlier back that up. But like I said before, it only matters to you when the IRA was killing civilians - But when British troops murder children in the North or in Iraq, you're quick to make excuses.0 -
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OK, lets get away from the republican propaganda.Firstly, it's documented fact that British troops murdered children in Derry. I find the idea that you're playing it off as if it's a conspiracy theory to be disgusting.
There was Bloody Sunday, no excuses for that, it was an attrocity, one which hopefully will be addressed properly once the enquiry is finished.
Now then, tell me more about these death squads you keep on about and I don;t mean killing the few murdering scum who were on their way to commit murder.
Sorry, I'm not that big on the human rights of prisoners, especially in a war like this.The last YOU saw? Were in you Iraq documenting the war? I doubt you can see anything outside the scope of the British propaganda machine to be honest. If you really wanted to see, then you would have already see the report made by Amnesty international in regards to human rights abuses by British soldiers.
The use of carpet bombing strategies ensures that civilian life will be lost, despite heavy pressure from human rights watchdogs condemning it. This is documented fact.
I support the mission in Afghanistan, but I do not support the tactics used which results in heavy civilian death. For all the moaning you do about civilian death lost at the hands of the IRA, you're quick to give the OK for the civilian death as a result of the British forces.
If I was at a checkpoint and someone tried killing me, I'd give them a kicking if I caught them as well and bodies get mutilated when bayonets get drawn, its a very brave call by whoever is in charge as it cuts down enormously the amount of collatoral damage in a fire fight by the way.
There's also the small matter of compensation in cases like this.No, I don't think it's hypocritical. It makes perfect sense. Just like Ireland was oppressed by a foreign nation and had it's citizens murdered by British forces, the same exact thing is happening in Iraq and the documented reports I outlined earlier back that up. But like I said before, it only matters to you when the IRA was killing civilians - But when British troops murder children in the North or in Iraq, you're quick to make excuses.
Incorrect, it only matters to you when it is the British Army.
Do you condemn the IRA for intentionally killing innocent people and therefore Sinn Fein for defending them?
Easy question, try not to dance around it this time.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »OK, lets get away from the republican propaganda.
Oh, the thread isn't going the way you like it - is it? I see. FYI: It's not propaganda, but merely fact. A fact relating to the topic at hand.Fratton Fred wrote: »There was Bloody Sunday, no excuses for that, it was an attrocity, one which hopefully will be addressed properly once the enquiry is finished.
Not to mention the Miami Showband Massacre, documented collusion between British security forces and loyalist terrorists and so forth.Fratton Fred wrote: »Now then, tell me more about these death squads you keep on about and I don;t mean killing the few murdering scum who were on their way to commit murder.
17 year old children are murdering scum? An 8 year old girl in Iraq was murdering scum? I'd watch what debates you try and get yourself involved with. You'll end up humiliated if you further this one.Fratton Fred wrote: »Sorry, I'm not that big on the human rights of prisoners, especially in a war like this.
That's obvious. Although, tell me when an average civilian became a "prisoner".At least 20 British soldiers are now facing prosecution after coming under "significant suspicion" of involvement in the "deliberate" abuse of Iraqi civilians, The Independent on Sunday can reveal.
Source: The Independent
I can do this all day.Fratton Fred wrote: »If I was at a checkpoint and someone tried killing me, I'd give them a kicking if I caught them as well and bodies get mutilated when bayonets get drawn, its a very brave call by whoever is in charge as it cuts down enormously the amount of collatoral damage in a fire fight by the way.
Once again I repeat, innocent civilians have been abused. Nothing to do with people trying to kill anyone. Just average Joe Soaps being abused by members of the British forces.A highly decorated British army officer is facing prosecution for war crimes over the death of an Iraqi civilian beaten to death by his troops, British papers revealed on Sunday, May 22.
Army prosecutors are preparing war crimes charges against Colonel Jorge Mendonca, commanding officer of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, faces an inquiry after the 26-year-old hotel receptionist Baha Mousa died in custody, The Independent on Sunday said.The United Kingdom's ministry of defence is investigating the possible mistreatment of Iraqi civilians by British soldiers, following the publication of video footage which has come into the possession of the News of the World newspaper. The video shows British troops meting out brutal treatment to four Iraqi youths.
Source: News of the WorldFratton Fred wrote: »There's also the small matter of compensation in cases like this.
Oh right so, money makes it ok does it? Grand so. You're really doing any justice for your case. The more you post, the more ridiculous your arguments seem.Fratton Fred wrote: »Incorrect, it only matters to you when it is the British Army.
Wrong.Fratton Fred wrote: »Do you condemn the IRA for intentionally killing innocent people and therefore Sinn Fein for defending them?
Where did Sinn Féin defend the IRA for intentionally killing innocent people? Care to back that up with references? I personally have already stated before that I condemn the IRA for any civilians that died as a result of IRA operations. I think I've made this point quite clear on numerous occasions.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »No, because this starts off about one thing and ends up with what the British Army have done in Northern Ireland.
Its pretty ****ing boring actually, lets see who can insult who the most without getting banned.
Boring to you maybe, not to others.0 -
where did I call kids murdering scum? trying to imply I did is pretty poor, even by your standardsNot to mention the Miami Showband Massacre, documented collusion between British security forces and loyalist terrorists and so forth.
17 year old children are murdering scum? An 8 year old girl in Iraq was murdering scum? I'd watch what debates you try and get yourself involved with. You'll end up humiliated if you further this one.That's obvious. Although, tell me when an average civilian became a "prisoner".
Once again I repeat, innocent civilians have been abused. Nothing to do with people trying to kill anyone. Just average Joe Soaps being abused by members of the British forces.
Oh right so, money makes it ok does it? Grand so. You're really doing any justice for your case. The more you post, the more ridiculous your arguments seem.
so we have a case (Which is pretty well documented at the moment) of a man being killed in British custody. This is being investigated and hopefully justice will be served. Still looking for the thousands you talked about though.
On compensation, look at it this way. A man attacks a British army checkpoint, gets shot, captured and thrown into prison. For his troubles, he gets sweet FA apart from prison food.
A man attacks a British army checkpoint, get shot, captured and then gets beaten up, humiliated and runs to the press with stories of abuse and mistreatment, he gets compensation for his troubles.Where did Sinn Féin defend the IRA for intentionally killing innocent people? Care to back that up with references? I personally have already stated before that I condemn the IRA for any civilians that died as a result of IRA operations. I think I've made this point quite clear on numerous occasions.
Carrying the coffins of murderers, calling for the release of prisoners, defending the Columbia three, calling for the name of a street in Dublin to be renamed after a terrorist, shall I go on?
it is no coincidence people call it SF/IRA you know, they are joined at the hip. In fact, I would say that disbanding Sinn Fein (and the DUP in fairness) would speed up the unification of Ireland because the sooner as the terrorists are removed from stormont the sooner people will start to forget (Not that the DUP or SF want people to forget).0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »where did I call kids murdering scum? trying to imply I did is pretty poor, even by your standards
So you accept British forces have murdered innocent children. That's fine. We can move on so.Fratton Fred wrote: »so we have a case (Which is pretty well documented at the moment) of a man being killed in British custody. This is being investigated and hopefully justice will be served. Still looking for the thousands you talked about though.
We have many cases. Which is entirely my point. Many cases of abuse. This is the point you seem to be missing. I have already sourced a scientific report which documented that 1000's of lifes could have been saved if British troops did not use god awful tactics in their war, where they knew prior to attacking that civilian life lost would be uncontrollable. That's what happens when you use cluster bombs. I have noted many occasions where many civilians have died. It should be substantial enough. Do you really want me to try and reference 1000 seperate instances of abuse by British soldiers? Get real. Do yourself the pleasure.Fratton Fred wrote: »On compensation, look at it this way. A man attacks a British army checkpoint, gets shot, captured and thrown into prison. For his troubles, he gets sweet FA apart from prison food.
A man attacks a British army checkpoint, get shot, captured and then gets beaten up, humiliated and runs to the press with stories of abuse and mistreatment, he gets compensation for his troubles.
You seem to be having a really hard time with reading basic sentences. The topic of discussion is civilians. IE: People who are not engaged in war and who are innocent victims of the British war machine. If I gave you 1000 stories of 1000 different deaths, you still wouldn't be satisfied. So instead of trying to defend the British army - Why don't you just admit that they are accountable for the deaths of countless civilians - Whether it be through point blank abuse of civilians, or lack of respect for human life when using cluster bombs. The same result is still there - Civilians die.Fratton Fred wrote: »Carrying the coffins of murderers, calling for the release of prisoners, defending the Columbia three, calling for the name of a street in Dublin to be renamed after a terrorist, shall I go on?
Excuse me - How is that defending intentional killing of civilians. Defending the "intentional killing of civilians" would be something along the lines of "They were British, so it doesn't matter." I asked you to reference where Sinn Féin has defended the IRA for "intentionally killing innocent civilians". You have not done so.Fratton Fred wrote: »it is no coincidence people call it SF/IRA you know, they are joined at the hip.
Considering the IRA is no longer in operation, I'd find that hard to believe. Sinn Féin, whether you like to believe it or not is engaged in a political route to Irish Unity. Your beloved British troops however are still over in Iraq abusing civilians. That's the difference. When those scumbag soldiers leave Iraq and stop hassling nations that are of no concern to it - Then we'll talk.0 -
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So you accept British forces have murdered innocent children. That's fine. We can move on so.
You seem to be having a really hard time with reading basic sentences. The topic of discussion is civilians. IE: People who are not engaged in war and who are innocent victims of the British war machine. If I gave you 1000 stories of 1000 different deaths, you still wouldn't be satisfied. So instead of trying to defend the British army - Why don't you just admit that they are accountable for the deaths of countless civilians - Whether it be through point blank abuse of civilians, or lack of respect for human life when using cluster bombs. The same result is still there - Civilians die.Excuse me - How is that defending intentional killing of civilians. Defending the "intentional killing of civilians" would be something along the lines of "They were British, so it doesn't matter." I asked you to reference where Sinn Féin has defended the IRA for "intentionally killing innocent civilians". You have not done so.
where have I defended the British army for intentionally killing civilians.
you need to take a look at yourself mate. I admit I have been playing devils advocate here, but look at your logic.
It is ok for SF to celebrate murderers because in your eyes, "the phone box had been vandalised" makes it an "Accident" but when the British army accidentally kill someone it is murder?
you have two very different standards. you care nothing for the killing of innocent people, all you care about is scoring points off the British.0 -
Not jumping in on your little tiff with the other fella, but I had to laugh there.
For someone who is keen to preach, it seems you've a little bit to learn about the media..........
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4705482.stm
There's a source from BBC for the same article you are question. I can get you other sources if you like. A quick google on the issue would have saved you embarassment, instead of trying to be witty and jumping on the pedantic wagon.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »where have I defended the British army for intentionally killing civilians.
Where did Sinn Féin? I thought we already came to the conclusion at the start of my post that you agree that the British troops are responsible for countless civilian deaths. So long as you are still in agreeance, then I'll not hold you as a British army apologist.Fratton Fred wrote: »you need to take a look at yourself mate. I admit I have been playing devils advocate here, but look at your logic.
My logic is fine. And I'm not your "mate".Fratton Fred wrote: »It is ok for SF to celebrate murderers because in your eyes, "the phone box had been vandalised" makes it an "Accident" but when the British army accidentally kill someone it is murder?
I'm not following you there. Sinn Féin have never celebrated the murder of innocent civilians. They may celebrate members of the IRA for attacks on British military, but never innocent civilians.Fratton Fred wrote: »you have two very different standards. you care nothing for the killing of innocent people, all you care about is scoring points off the British.
You keep stating this, but I have shown otherwise. I would like to point out that I've nothing against the "British" people. My qualm is with the British forces. Many fine British people opposed the war in Iraq, just as I do.
Also, I have already stated that I condemn the IRA for any civilians they may have killed. I condemn the American forces for their abuse of Iraqi civilians. I condemn the British army for their abuse of Iraqi & Irish civilians. I condemn George Bush for being a warlord, and Tony Blair for being his puppet. The thing is, I do actually care about the deaths of innocent people.
If you feel that I'm scoring points against the British forces, then you are obviously feeling victimised. That's not my problem Fred. And let me remind you, I'm not the only person who has an agenda against the British forces. Ask yourself, why is that? For me - I have a profound distaste for the British forces - for what they did in Ireland and for what they have done abroad. If I speak against them, it's because I am not exactly their biggest fan. Something drives someone to post on any topic. They wouldn't post on it otherwise, would they?0 -
of course the British Army have been responsible for the death of civilians, can you name a military that hasn't?Where did Sinn Féin? I thought we already came to the conclusion at the start of my post that you agree that the British troops are responsible for countless civilian deaths. So long as you are still in agreeance, then I'll not hold you as a British army apologist.
What I would contest is that it is not the thousands you seem to think it is.
Iraq was a nightmare, I'll admit i supported the war at the beginnig, as did a lot of people. What no-one realised is just how horribly wrong it would go. There was mass celebrations when Sadam was ousted, but the subsequant civil war caused an incredible loss of life. I don;t think you can hold the US or British responsible for all of these deaths, as there was a lot of outside influence, all of whom dad their own agenda.
The trouble is, what can you do? if the British and US had jumped ship straight after Sadam was captured what would the death toll have looked like then? It was a horrendous **** up, but I don;t think you can blame the Army, but I believe you can the politicians and the intelligence people.I'm not following you there. Sinn Féin have never celebrated the murder of innocent civilians. They may celebrate members of the IRA for attacks on British military, but never innocent civilians.
Thomas Begley ring any bells?
I'm not feeling victimised, just hacked off with the constant one sided view on things.
The RIR are coming back from a succesful tour of Afghanistan, if people want to protest against war then they should take it to westminster where the politicians are, not take it out on the guys themselves.
There is a hard, dirty job being done in Afghanistan and i believe the guys doing it should be applauded for having the balls to do it, not despised for something they have had no part in.
All this crap in this thread about Osama I dead, what has it got to do with Ireland, we're a peace loving country, its all crap. tdo you honestly think that if Al Qeada had a chance to take down an Aer Lingus plane they wouldn't do it? The only thing protecting Ireland at the moment is that there are still not that many Muslims in this country, therefore there are very few radicalised ones who would carry out such an attack.0 -
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Fratton Fred wrote: »of course the British Army have been responsible for the death of civilians, can you name a military that hasn't?
Right, so that makes it ok, does it?Fratton Fred wrote: »What I would contest is that it is not the thousands you seem to think it is.
It's not only I who think it. Amnesty International agrees with me. Scientific reports also agree with me. Just because you contest it, does not make it so. It just means you are living in denial.Fratton Fred wrote: »I don;t think you can hold the US or British responsible for all of these deaths
When did I ever claim they were responsible for "all of the deaths"? I cited references which showed that British forces had killed many civilians and were using tactics that did not respect human life.Fratton Fred wrote: »The trouble is, what can you do? if the British and US had jumped ship straight after Sadam was captured what would the death toll have looked like then? It was a horrendous **** up, but I don;t think you can blame the Army, but I believe you can the politicians and the intelligence people.
What can you do? Stop using cluster bombs and shooting 8 year old girls for one?Fratton Fred wrote: »Thomas Begley ring any bells?
Thomas Begley was attempting to kill Johnny Adair. It was a botched operation, and he had no intention to "intentionally kill civilians". So what you have posted is false. While I admit that he is responsible for their deaths, it is false to state that he had intentionally tried to kill them.Fratton Fred wrote: »I'm not feeling victimised, just hacked off with the constant one sided view on things.
The same one sided view you have against Republicans? Pot, kettle.. You know the drill by now.Fratton Fred wrote: »The RIR are coming back from a succesful tour of Afghanistan, if people want to protest against war then they should take it to westminster where the politicians are, not take it out on the guys themselves.
Yes, yes they should. They want to parade around after destroying lives - Why should that be celebrated, when the British forces had previously destroyed lives in Ireland? You're detached from reality if you think they deserve a parade, and that nobody will be offended by them parading around given the history of the British forces in Ireland and the atrocities they have committed, while also destoying civilians abroad which they should now be celebrated for? You were just lecturing about celebrating Martin Begley's life - But it's ok to celebrate British forces who have killed far more civilians than Begley. Some serious selective logic there.Fratton Fred wrote: »There is a hard, dirty job being done in Afghanistan and i believe the guys doing it should be applauded for having the balls to do it, not despised for something they have had no part in.
Bollox. Half of them should be put in prison for war crimes.Fratton Fred wrote: »All this crap in this thread about Osama I dead, what has it got to do with Ireland, we're a peace loving country, its all crap. tdo you honestly think that if Al Qeada had a chance to take down an Aer Lingus plane they wouldn't do it? The only thing protecting Ireland at the moment is that there are still not that many Muslims in this country, therefore there are very few radicalised ones who would carry out such an attack.
No, he would not attack Ireland. So long as we stuck our noses out of other people's business. Why is it Britain and the US were attacked? Because Britain and the US are bullys in the global context of things and try to dictate what happens and what doesn't. That is why they were attacked.
Like I said before - Osama Bin Laden never attacked Ireland, but Britain has on a number of occasions. While I think Bin Laden is a scumbag, I'm quick to remember Ireland's only real enemy in the last couple of decades and it sure isn't him.0 -
no, but it does make it a reality.Right, so that makes it ok, does it?
many is a lot different to thousands.It's not only I who think it. Amnesty International agrees with me. Scientific reports also agree with me. Just because you contest it, does not make it so. It just means you are living in denial.
When did I ever claim they were responsible for "all of the deaths"? I cited references which showed that British forces had killed many civilians and were using tactics that did not respect human life.
that's pretty cheap, i doubt very much that an 8 year old girl was targetted don't you?What can you do? Stop using cluster bombs and shooting 8 year old girls for one?
IIRC, Gordon Browne helped push through an agreement to ban Cluster Bombs, also the ones used by the British Army differ enormously to normal Cluster bombs.
no, Thomas Begley was trying to blow up a fish and chip shop that he thought Johnny Adair was in at the time. What he did manage to do was kill 9 innocent people, one of which was a child. I don't think many people would (or did) lose any sleep over the death of Johnny Adair, but bombing a fish and chip shop, come on.Thomas Begley was attempting to kill Johnny Adair. It was a botched operation, and he had no intention to "intentionally kill civilians". So what you have posted is false. While I admit that he is responsible for their deaths, it is false to state that he had intentionally tried to kill them.
funny, bollox is the first word that came to my mind then.Bollox. Half of them should be put in prison for war crimes.No, he would not attack Ireland. So long as we stuck our noses out of other people's business. Why is it Britain and the US were attacked? Because Britain and the US are bullys in the global context of things and try to dictate what happens and what doesn't. That is why they were attacked.
Like I said before - Osama Bin Laden never attacked Ireland, but Britain has on a number of occasions. While I think Bin Laden is a scumbag, I'm quick to remember Ireland's only real enemy in the last couple of decades and it sure isn't him.
Spain? France? Germany? Turkey, the good people of Bali?0 -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4705482.stm
There's a source from BBC for the same article you are question. I can get you other sources if you like. A quick google on the issue would have saved you embarassment, instead of trying to be witty and jumping on the pedantic wagon.
You should read more Nick Davies if you're going to use an internet forum in the tone that you do.
Why would I be embarrassed? I don't know you from Adam and it was you who was quoting News of the World given their past record, not me.
I remember the incident well and dont have to resort to a search dialog box to retroactively contrive 'evidence' for arguing on the internet. You'll find real life isn't like that.0 -
You should read more Nick Davies if you're going to use an internet forum in the tone that you do.
Why would I be embarrassed? I don't know you from Adam and it was you who was quoting News of the World given their past record, not me.
I remember the incident well and dont have to resort to a search dialog box to retroactively contrive 'evidence' for arguing on the internet. You'll find real life isn't like that.
I quickly assembled one of the sources - The fact that your only counter-argument to my points was on one source that "may" have been questionable (which I later added another more credible source for) - proves that you are infact, pedantic.0 -
Regardless of you being duped into believing the invasion being a just and legal cause, what you write above is certainly worth a raised eyebrow or two. There are plenty Muslims in this country. Nothing wrong with that. Nor in any other country.Fratton Fred wrote: »The only thing protecting Ireland at the moment is that there are still not that many Muslims in this country, therefore there are very few radicalised ones who would carry out such an attack.
What is "protecting" the country from attacks has nothing to do with the number of muslim people living there as much as Iraq has nothing to do with protecting the people of Britain and the United States.
I'll agree with you being flabbergasted at the semantics of the Begley fella's
"intentions" however.0 -
I quickly assembled one of the sources - The fact that your only counter-argument to my points was on one source that "may" have been questionable (which I later added another more credible source for) - proves that you are infact, pedantic.
You quoted that paper. I thought it was funny and what happens, you raise the sanctimonious stakes even higher? :rolleyes:
Nothing to do with pedantry, fella.
Like I suggested, read some Nick Davies.0 -
Fratton Fred wrote: »no, but it does make it a reality.
So long as we're both on the same page as to what this reality is. And that is, the thoughtless killing of civilians by British troops.Fratton Fred wrote: »many is a lot different to thousands.
You're still wriggling around exact numbers I see. Since British & US forces have not published a list of civilian deaths, it's hard to estimate. But judging by the reports, it makes perfect sense to assume a vast amount of civilians have died at the hands of British military. I have already posted sources of numerous attacks on civilians. Why not address them, instead of nitpicking on an exact amount that neither of us can be certain of.Fratton Fred wrote: »that's pretty cheap, i doubt very much that an 8 year old girl was targetted don't you?
The same way it was cheap to suggest Begley's intentions were to kill civilians? This game works both ways.Fratton Fred wrote: »IIRC, Gordon Browne helped push through an agreement to ban Cluster Bombs, also the ones used by the British Army differ enormously to normal Cluster bombs.
I would applaud any removal of cluster bomb use in war, but that is not going to bring back the dead.Fratton Fred wrote: »no, Thomas Begley was trying to blow up a fish and chip shop that he thought Johnny Adair was in at the time. What he did manage to do was kill 9 innocent people, one of which was a child. I don't think many people would (or did) lose any sleep over the death of Johnny Adair, but bombing a fish and chip shop, come on.
No, he was trying to blow up Johnny Adair and died doing so in an accident when it went off prematurely. To say he intended to kill children is false. His sole goal was to kill Johnny Adair and other loyalist leaders. Like I said, he's responsible for their deaths and I don't dispute that - But it is not what he intended to do and you fully well know it.0 -
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lol at the title sf march is provocative, i think imperial troops marching home to belfasis provocative.0
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Regardless of you being duped into believing the invasion being a just and legal cause, what you write above is certainly worth a raised eyebrow or two. There are plenty Muslims in this country. Nothing wrong with that. Nor in any other country.
What is "protecting" the country from attacks has nothing to do with the number of muslim people living there as much as Iraq has nothing to do with protecting the people of Britain and the United States.
I'll agree with you being flabbergasted at the semantics of the Begley fella's
"intentions" however.
There aren't that many Muslims in Ireland, not compared to Britain, Holland, Germany etc. If you go to some areas of the UK, such as parts of Bradford, Slough, Southall etc then the majority of people in those places are Muslim. To put it in Irish terms, imagine 50% of Finglas was Muslim.
There is nothing wrong with that, I would agree. I lived in an area that was about 20% Muslim and the vast majority of scum bags on my estate were English. However, large numbers of second of third generation Muslims is a hunting ground for those that wish to radicalise and incite hatred. This is something that has not happened in Ireland and I hope never does.0
This discussion has been closed.
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