Sinn Fein/IRA to organise provocative march

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

Or did I miss something?

Yes, you obviously missed the child that they killed in Afghanistan 2 months ago.

Afghan soldiers and civilians have confronted troops at a Royal Irish Regiment base in Afghanistan following the death of child.

They claimed it was an accident, and like always - never took responsibility for their actions. I haven't seen any apology for this killing either. It makes you wonder, just how many civilian deaths have gone unreported.

LordSutch

The Good people of Northern Ireland (& some from the South) will welcome Home the Royal Irish Regiment, and as regards who organised the provocative 'Counter March' - has the Author of this Thread got it wrong?

If so, I stand corrected - I was only following the premise of the Opening Post.

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

The Good people of Northern Ireland (& some from the South) will welcome Home the Royal Irish Regiment, and as regards who organised the provocative 'Counter March' - has the Author of this Thread got it wrong?

Oh right - So the "bad" people of the North will oppose the parade. I get it. It's like a movie, where you have goodies and badies. I like the fantasy world you live in.

Camelot wrote: »

If so, I stand corrected - I was only following the premise of the Opening Post.

Yes, you do stand corrected. A bit of research before you go on a tangent would be nice the next time.

marco murphy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Bah, evidence.

I thought if everyone knew something and it was stated enough times it is a fact, no?

what were they doing in Columbia, on false passports then?

Ask them, instead of spreading ****e.

Fratton Fred

Perestroika wrote: »

Ask them, instead of spreading ****e.

poor sweet old chaps, so much concern for the average Columbian.

Monitoring the peace process, isn't that for government bodies to do, not convicted terrorists and their sympathisers?

Fratton Fred

hopalong85 wrote: »

in fairness to dlofnep, he does actually address the "points" made by fratton fred here. the same can not be said for fratton fred. he seems to simply glance over and ignore a lot of things when making a reply.

personally i think this protest is 100% justified, and strongly disagree with any march welcoming these soldiers home after what they have been a part of during their tours in the middle east.

I've glossed over a lot because frankly, I can't be arsed to go into as much detail as Dlfo, he onbviously cares more than I do.

If people want to protest fine, as I said earlier, there is nothing wrong in a peaceful anti war demo, its a good thing.

What pisses me off is the absolute bare faced hypocricy of half the people who have posted in this thread. How can someone be a pacifist one minute and condemn the accidental killing of civilians by an army, then praise the IRA the next and come out with excuses like "Ahh sure, they never meant to kill any innocent people when they threw a bomb into a crowded pub".

in war people die, many of them innocent. the trick is to try and keep those deaths to a minimum.

TOMASJ

Fratton Fred wrote: »

poor sweet old chaps, so much concern for the average Columbian.

Monitoring the peace process, isn't that for government bodies to do, not convicted terrorists and their sympathisers?

Or Mark Thatcher

TOMASJ

What pisses me off is the absolute bare faced hypocricy of half the people who have posted in this thread. How can someone be a pacifist one minute and condemn the accidental killing of civilians by an army, then praise the IRA the next and come out with excuses like "Ahh sure, they never meant to kill any innocent people when they threw a bomb into a crowded pub

All fine words Fred, but getting back to the subject of the thread this was no accidental killing , it was cold blooded murder

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What pisses me off is the absolute bare faced hypocricy of half the people who have posted in this thread. How can someone be a pacifist one minute and condemn the accidental killing of civilians by an army, then praise the IRA the next and come out with excuses like "Ahh sure, they never meant to kill any innocent people when they threw a bomb into a crowded pub".

Where did I praise the IRA? I defended Begley because you stated that he intentionally murdered children. I responded to that accusation because it was false and gave you a more accurate overview of what happened. I don't dispute that the IRA have to take onus for any civilian casulties that died as a result of their operations - And I think the general consensus is, that they have.

Like I said before - I support the peace process in Ireland. I'm not a fan of war. Not here in Ireland, not in Iraq, or anywhere else. Sinn Féin as a party is also engaged in a peace-process. They have moved on and want to see the tit for tat past put behind them. Unfortunately people like you won't let them move on. The IRA has decommissioned - An independant report has confirmed that they are no longer a threat - But you continue to bring it up. And while the IRA are long gone, the British army's acts continue throughout the world.

I might add - That Sinn Féin grounds would be based on a foreign power pushing it's weight around on someone's homeland, similar to how the British army did in Ireland. I don't see how it's hypocritical at all.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

in war people die, many of them innocent. the trick is to try and keep those deaths to a minimum.

You say this Fred - But the IRA warned with phone calls prior to their bombing campaigns to ensure civilian casulties were avoided. But somehow, you don't take this onboard when you use logic like "In war, people die". That logic is all fine and well for you when British troops are involved, but not the IRA. Can't you see the holes in it?

Me personally - I am of the belief that you're responsible for whatever you have caused. The IRA included. But your argument doesn't hold any weight, because there have been categoric breaches of human rights by British soldiers. From beating up children (well documented on video), to shooting civilians, to destroying families by using cluster bombs. Stating "In war, people die." does not excuse those actions I'm afraid.

Now I understand Britain has now decided not to use cluster bomb technolgy, but it's a day late and a dollar short. They have caused mass pain throughout the middle-east, and also - in Ireland. I'm willing to let by-gones be by-gones in Ireland if they accept responsibility for events like Bloody Sunday, come clean about their collusion and apologise categorically to those families that they have effected. Maybe then people can properly move on in Ireland and we can work on truly uniting this great nation of ours through peace and understanding.

But this has to also resonate across all their campaigns. They cannot continue to reject responsibility for civilian death (like that 8 year old girl) - Because it will only remind us of the rejection of responsibility here in Ireland when they did not accept the onus for the events on Bloody Sunday.

I believe we've pitter pattered about this topic for long enough Fred. Those are my thoughts on the matter. I hope you take them onboard.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

But the IRA warned with phone calls prior to their bombing campaigns to ensure civilian casulties were avoided. But somehow, you don't take this onboard when you use logic like "In war, people die".

And therein lies the reason you get labelled as an "apologist" of sorts, dlofnep.....if I "warn" people that I'm going to do something illegal or dangerous, it doesn't make it any less illegal or dangerous.

You could actually extrapolate your argument and say that the US/UK invasion forces "warned" Iraq that they would invade, and the Iraqis therefore knew that they would invade, so the powers-that-be in Iraq should somehow have ensured there safety.

Ridiculous ? Absolutely. But it's a logical progression from your argument, and reflects as such.

And nobody's saying that anything illegal the US/UK aggressors do is excusable, and nobody's "picking" on the IRA.

But having the IRA protest against a group that have committed atrocities is double-standards and hypocritical.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone......

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And therein lies the reason you get labelled as an "apologist" of sorts, dlofnep.....if I "warn" people that I'm going to do something illegal or dangerous, it doesn't make it any less illegal or dangerous.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't quote me out of context. I'll quote it in full, just incase you purposely missed it.

Fred posted the following.

in war people die, many of them innocent. the trick is to try and keep those deaths to a minimum.

To which I THEN replied.

dlofnep wrote:

You say this Fred - But the IRA warned with phone calls prior to their bombing campaigns to ensure civilian casulties were avoided. But somehow, you don't take this onboard when you use logic like "In war, people die". That logic is all fine and well for you when British troops are involved, but not the IRA. Can't you see the holes in it?

I then followed that up directly in the next paragraph stating..

dlofnep wrote:

Me personally - I am of the belief that you're responsible for whatever you have caused. The IRA included.

So as you can see, I was not apologising for the IRA. I stated that the onus was on them for any life lost as a result of their campaigns. I was responding to Fred's suggestion that "In war, people die" - which worked fine for defending the British forces, but the same logic didn't apply for him when he was criticising the IRA. I was outlining that it was not a valid excuse to state that people die in war. Please re-read my whole post, don't post me out of context and you'll see that everything I have stated is valid.

So no Liam. I'm not an apologist. I'm just calling things like they are and in the context of the argument, you can now clearly see that I was not trying to state that the civilian deaths resulting in the IRA campaigns were OK because it was war - I was highlighting the flaws in Fred's logic where HE infact stated it was ok, but that same logic did not apply for him in regards ot the IRA's campaign.

Liam Byrne wrote:

But having the IRA protest against a group that have committed atrocities is double-standards and hypocritical.

The IRA isn't protesting it, Sinn Féin and other groups are. To which, I have already outlined why in a previous post, if you care to have a read.

Liam Byrne

Apologies if I actually quoted you out of context, but I'd have to admit to being confused now......why did you make the point that the IRA made phonecalls ? How was it even remotely relevant ?

But the IRA warned with phone calls prior to their bombing campaigns to ensure civilian casulties were avoided.

You didn't say "minimised", you said "avoided". You also said "ensure" (not "aim" or "hope that")

There's only ONE way to ensure civilian casualties are avoided. And we all know what that way is.

Making "warning" phonecalls is irrevelant. It'd be like ringing someone to let them know that you'd murder them next week.

When language is used that carelessly (or carefully, maybe ? - as I've said before, lots of language is used to excuse or normalise the inexcusable an indefensible) then it shows at least a subconscious level of "making excuses"; maybe "apologist" is a little strong, and if so I'm sorry, but it does show a particular attitude towards the act.

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Apologies if I actually quoted you out of context, but I'd have to admit to being confused now......why did you make the point that the IRA made phonecalls ? How was it even remotely relevant ?

That's a valid question.

I was stating it because I wanted to show Fred that when he placed his logic in the context of the IRA (knowing that he is firmly against them), instead of the British forces - He then couldn't apply it. It wasn't to glorify the IRA, but rather to put Fred in a difficult position to validate his logic.

I hope this clears it up.

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You didn't say "minimised", you said "avoided". You also said "ensure" (not "aim" or "hope that")

There's only ONE way to ensure civilian casualties are avoided. And we all know what that way is.

Sorry, I didn't see this part as you had edited it after I responded. Just quickly.

I agree with you Liam on it in regards to the whole "if you plant a bomb, bad things happen", which is why I then directly stated in the next sentence that they had to accept the responsibility for that.

Liam Byrne

I can - partially - see where you're coming from, but the reason that people are saying "come off it" is because Sinn Fein/IRA are organising the protest; they've no right to, given what they've done themselves.

It's like a rapist complaining about a registered sex offender moving into their street.

I've said it already; anyone else protesting against the illegal war is 100% fine by me (and I'd be there with them) but not this protest because there's more behind it and it's double-standards.

Oh, and we could be down to semantics here, but

if you plant a bomb, bad things happen

No. If "you" plant a bomb you CAUSE bad things to happen and "you" are directly responsible for the result, regardless of who you "warn".

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I can - partially - see where you're coming from, but the reason that people are saying "come off it" is because Sinn Fein/IRA are organising the protest; they've no right to, given what they've done themselves.

Liam - The IRA are disbanded. Sinn Féin are engaged in peaceful politics. It is not hypocritical and I have explained why. Foreign forces came to Ireland and killed countless civilians here, never accepting responsibility for their actions. The same is happening today in Afghanistan and Iraq and they are still not taking responsibility for their actions. You're wrong in this I'm afraid Liam.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No. If "you" plant a bomb you CAUSE bad things to happen and "you" are directly responsible for the result, regardless of who you "warn".

I don't disagree with that. Judging by your quotation marks - I'm assuming that you assume I do? I'm finished my shift now in work - So if there's anything specific you want to ask me on my beliefs or politics, just drop me a line. I'm more than happy to explain any belief I hold or defend any point I have made.

Night.

gurramok

Camelot wrote: »

The Good people of Northern Ireland (& some from the South) will welcome Home the Royal Irish Regiment, and as regards who organised the provocative 'Counter March' - has the Author of this Thread got it wrong?

Hi ArthurF.

The SDLP along with SF oppose this parade.

As practically all nationalists vote for either SDLP or SF, you've just labelled nearly 50% of the population in NI along with the vast majority down here who support the Irish army as our legitimate army as 'bad people', how grateful:rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

It is not hypocritical and I have explained why.

You have explained why you don't think it is hypocritical; others think it is, and I can see exactly why they do.

dlofnep wrote: »

......forces came to [the part of Ireland that is in the UK] and killed countless civilians [t]here, never accepting responsibility for their actions.

True. But the point is that the last phrase applies to Sinn Fein, who have repeatedly been photographed with murderers in jail and campaigned to have them released and have refused to condemn or investigate a lot of atrocities.

So I wouldn't welcome the British or Irish army, but I wouldn't welcome Sinn Fein or the IRA either. I'm judging both by their actions, and both come up short.

So the fact that I agree with where Fred is coming from is precisely BECAUSE I'm judging like with like. Neither are welcome because of what they've done.

The hypocrisy comes into play because if you play dirty you shouldn't [can't] complain about others who do.

I don't disagree with that. Judging by your quotation marks - I'm assuming that you assume I do?

Actually, just the opposite; the reason I added the quotation marks was so that it wouldn't look like I meant YOU specifically, but the alternative - "if ONE.....then ONE" - ironically sounded far too "British"

TOMASJ

]I can - partially - see where you're coming from, but the reason that people are saying "come off it" is because Sinn Fein/IRA are organising the protest; they've no right to, given what they've done themselves.

It's like a rapist complaining about a registered sex offender moving into their street

Liam you need to get the jist of this right Sinn Fein call for protest is against the british army's illigal war in Iraq,
and a unit of that army which still occupies six county's of your country coming to Ireland to celebrate what anyone with any sense can only describe as scandalous murder of tens of thousands of innocent men women and children,
this same RIR paraded last week at there base in England and are only coming to Belfast to rub the noses of people who don't support this war,

don't be blinded by whatever prejudiced you have against republicans,

As for your comment about anyone else protesting against the illegal war is 100% fine by me if we follow this logic any protest made by the British Government, about any war anywhere are they also like a rapist complaining about a registered sex offender moving into their street
.

TOMASJ

True. But the point is that the last phrase applies to Sinn Fein, who have repeatedly been photographed with murderers in jail and campaigned to have them released and have refused to condemn or investigate a lot of atrocities

not only Sinn Fein were photographed with murderers and campaigned to have them released The hole British establishment was behind the murderer Lee Clegg and have refused to condemn his deeds ,Shooting two children in Belfast Also they are supporting him in his quest for compo of hundreds of thousands on pounds, And you talk about hypocrisy.

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote: »

.....what anyone with any sense can only describe as scandalous murder of tens of thousands of innocent men women and children

Hmmm......bigger scale, alright, I'll give you that.

this same RIR paraded last week at there base in England and are only coming to Belfast to rub the noses of people who don't support this war.

don't be blinded by whatever prejudiced you have against republicans,

Oh, believe me, I'm not blinded. I remember Sinn Fein leaders being photographed alongside the murderers of Gerry McCabe, which rubbed the noses of people who despised those thugs.

As for your comment about anyone else protesting against the illegal war is 100% fine by me if we follow this logic any protest made by the British Government, about any war anywhere are they also like a rapist complaining about a registered sex offender moving into their street
.

I'm not disputing that fact. And if there's a thread about the two-faced-ness of the U.S. or the U.K., I'll post similar criticism, don't worry. And I'll also gladly criticise the current Fianna Fail government if they start organising anti-war protests after allowing American troops to use Shannon.

So please don't try to twist a reasonable, consistent and logical argument into "prejudice against republicans". It's not.

But this thread - check the title - is about a particular protest against violence and killing of innocents that is being organised by Sinn Fein, so therefore the only relevant posts are those which highlight the double-standards of that.

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote: »

not only Sinn Fein were photographed with murderers and campaigned to have them released The hole British establishment was behind the murderer Lee Clegg and have refused to condemn his deeds ,Shooting two children in Belfast Also they are supporting him in his quest for compo of hundreds of thousands on pounds, And you talk about hypocrisy.

How is this relevant to this thread ? I've already agreed that a protest against any troops involved in Iraq (or, indeed, since you brought up the above example, a protest against that) is 100% valid.

So no hypocrisy there. Campaign against or protest against any injustice that you wish.

But again, check the thread title. The hypocrisy is there to see because of those who are organising it.

If the thread title was "protest against XXXXXXX", I would have no such views in relation to the hypocrisy, because there would be none.

TOMASJ

OK so you say the fact that sinn fein are protesting against this coatrailing farce in Belfast would exclude you from partisapiting, fair enough
For someone who trys very hard to come across as a very reasonable and fair guy, You have a tendency to avoid any reference to the source of the problem (THE RIR PARADE IN BELFAST) as I stated and you ignored part of your country is still occupied by this same army. why is it they want to march past a nationalist area where their buddies were responsable for dozens of murderers, If not to rub noses in it,
"as the old saying goes its not what you say -it what you dont say" that speaks volumes on a persons views

Mad Finn

mike65 wrote: »

RIR are in their own country, thats the point isn't it?

Mike

Not all of them are. In fact, I would guess a max of between 60 and 70% of any named Irish regiment is in fact from Ireland. Both parts.

In fact, it's probably less. Ever since the First World War, which was the last time there was a huge wave of Irish recruits into the British Army, the powers that be have tried to limit an exclusively Irish character in the Irish named regiments.

In WWI, although it's as hard to get an exact number as it is to define just what is an Irishman, the rule of thumb figure that people always seem to come up with on examining the issue is 70%. So although there are about 50,000 names on the Islanbridge Memorial, most people now accept that there were about 35,000 Irishmen killed fighting for Britain in WWI.

The remaining 30% of a batallion of RIR or IG or RDF/RMF/RIF (Munster, Dublin, Inniskilling Fusiliers) would have come from elsewhere in Britain.
Nowadays, much of the balance would come from places like Fiji or parts of Africa.

Fratton Fred

Mad Finn wrote: »

Not all of them are. In fact, I would guess a max of between 60 and 70% of any named Irish regiment is in fact from Ireland. Both parts.

In fact, it's probably less. Ever since the First World War, which was the last time there was a huge wave of Irish recruits into the British Army, the powers that be have tried to limit an exclusively Irish character in the Irish named regiments.

In WWI, although it's as hard to get an exact number as it is to define just what is an Irishman, the rule of thumb figure that people always seem to come up with on examining the issue is 70%. So although there are about 50,000 names on the Islanbridge Memorial, most people now accept that there were about 35,000 Irishmen killed fighting for Britain in WWI.

The remaining 30% of a batallion of RIR or IG or RDF/RMF/RIF (Munster, Dublin, Inniskilling Fusiliers) would have come from elsewhere in Britain.
Nowadays, much of the balance would come from places like Fiji or parts of Africa.

off the top of my head, I think you'll find the same applies to the Scots and Welsh regiments as well.

The RIR have specific skills/roles which would attract people from all over, not just Ireland.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

off the top of my head, I think you'll find the same applies to the Scots and Welsh regiments as well.

The RIR have specific skills/roles which would attract people from all over, not just Ireland.

" The RIR have specific skills/roles " Yes, skills such as shooting, torturing and assaulting innocent civilians from a young child to an old age pensioner. All ofcourse in the best traditions of the british army.

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote: »

For someone who trys very hard to come across as a very reasonable and fair guy

Actually, I don't "try very hard" to come across any particular way - I say it as I see it.

....You have a tendency to avoid any reference to the source of the problem (THE RIR PARADE IN BELFAST)

The thread title says "Sinn Fein/IRA" to organise provocative march, so the thread is about the protest, not the parade. As I said earlier, if there was a thread about the parade, I'd voice my opinions there.

as I stated and you ignored part of your country is still occupied by this same army

My country is the Republic of Ireland. Replace the word country with "island" and you'd be right. If and when it's a united Ireland, I'll be glad enough for loads of reasons, but I'm just clarifying the facts with that statement.

why is it they want to march past a nationalist area where their buddies were responsable for dozens of murderers, If not to rub noses in it,

And likewise, why do guys "whose buddies were responsible for dozens of murders" want to protest ???

"as the old saying goes its not what you say -it what you dont say" that speaks volumes on a persons views

Think what you like in that regard; I've clearly outlined my views and the reasons for them, so you can spin it any way you want.

Mind you, that full "old saying" includes "....or how you say it", and I will point out that when I mentioned how things were phrased (see "avoid", "cause", etc, above) I was very understanding and said that "it might come across that way", rather than completely jumping to conclusions and attacking the poster; pity you can't seem to give me the same respect.

What exactly haven't I said that's relevant and on-topic in relation to the thread title ?

"The war is wrong" ? I've said that
"The British Army has done wrong in NI and in Iraq" ? I've said that
"If they were marching here I'd protest too*" ? I've said that
Clarification: Based on what they've done, not because of who they are

The ONLY point I've made is that it's fairly ironic that a group who have used dodgy tactics resulting in the deaths of innocents are protesting against a group who have done exactly the same.

Liam Byrne

McArmalite wrote: »

" The RIR have specific skills/roles " Yes, skills such as shooting, torturing and assaulting innocent civilians from a young child to an old age pensioner. All ofcourse in the best traditions of the british army.

Despicable actions alright. Kettles & pots, though.

LordSutch

gurramok wrote: »

Hi ArthurF.

The SDLP along with SF oppose this parade.

As practically all nationalists vote for either SDLP or SF, you've just labelled nearly 50% of the population in NI along with the vast majority down here who support the Irish army as our legitimate army as 'bad people', how grateful:rolleyes:

Yes indeed, the SDLP are trying to 'Out Nationilst' Sinn Fein which I think is somewhat understandable (seeing as Sinn Fein have stolen most of the SDLPs clothes in recent years), but I really dont think that the SDLPs opposition to the Homecoming of the RIR is very healthy, specially in light of the fact that many members of the RIR are catholics from North & South of the border!

Support for the Irish Army is no bad thing either, indeed I would say the Irish Army is to be applauded, its a very professional outfit (small as it is) but most of the people Up North are welcoming home the 'Royal IRISH Regiment' which is "their Irish Regiment" & which includes men from the South too . . . . .

The hypocracsy of Sinn Fein makes me sick after what their buddies did over the last few decades, and the SDLP just seem to have joined the band wagon on this one - Durkan will clutch at anything to hang on.

dlofnep

So no comment on you labelling anyone who opposes the march as bad people then? I take it nationalists aren't welcome at the round table?