Prem thread - Late edition. (scores inside)

delija_sever029

Gomes to be nominated for the jerk of the year,guy hit 2 times in 2 mins his own player with a knee .....

Mr.Nice Guy

charlie mchugh wrote:

Jeez. That game had everything, didn't it. Fcuk your grand slam sundays, that was the business.

Hear, hear. That's what Sunday football is all about. A belter of a game. :cool:

Charlie

delija_sever029 wrote: »

Gomes to be nominated for the jerk of the year,guy hit 2 times in 2 mins his own player with a knee .....

And for sobbing like a child when he got a knock to the tummy. I am eagerly awaiting a .gif of that from the F365 lads.

SuprSi

~Rebel~ wrote: »

id bet any money that it wont be. The only ones that get recinded are decisions which are clearly wrong. This at best is 50/50, and in reality your the only person who thinks its not a red. Sky pundits have all said definate red, and while they dont matter, its easy for the FA to stick with the decision if public opinion is that it was right.

IMO it was a red. Yes his foot went for the man after rolling up over the ball, but his foot shouldn't have been high enough to roll over the ball in the first place, especially when tackling head on where foot carries on straight into exposed leg, rather then from the side coming across which would only trip a player.

Hmmm, fair enough, maybe I'm being biased, and maybe I'm just searching for some light at the end of the tunnel, just something to take a little bit of badness off this crappy, crappy season.

jesus_thats_gre

If this continues much longer, a new manager will defo be in by Christmas - next week even.. If he has any sense, he will buy a central defender or two and a defensive midfielder and Spurs should finish well out of the relegation zone..

~Rebel~

SuprSi wrote: »

Hmmm, fair enough, maybe I'm being biased, and maybe I'm just searching for some light at the end of the tunnel, just something to take a little bit of badness off this crappy, crappy season.

I feel for you man! Especially when its so unexpected given the players yee have.

therecklessone

charlie mchugh wrote: »

And for sobbing like a child when he got a knock to the tummy. I am eagerly awaiting a .gif of that from the F365 lads.

He's carrying an rib injury picked up on international duty.

Charlie

therecklessone wrote: »

He's carrying an rib injury picked up on international duty.

Well then if he is reduced to tears from a knock on that, should he be fit to play?

therecklessone

charlie mchugh wrote: »

Well then if he is reduced to tears from a knock on that, should he be fit to play?

I don't know, I've no medical training...have you?

Charlie

therecklessone wrote: »

I don't know, I've no medical training...have you?

Not but I assume those at Spurs do.

If a player is reacting like that to such an innocuous bump, is it not negligent on behalf of the medical team or coaching staff, to proceed to play him, particularly in light of your current situation.

Snake Plisken

PHB wrote: »

I think Modric is not bad, in the end can make it as a good top 6 player I think.

Ramos has to be fired. If not, Levy is an idiot. Even if he doesn't deserve to be fired, 2 points is just not acceptable. A new manager if being brought in should be done right now.

I wonder would Grant be availible.

No he shouldn't Holy Comolli should be kicked out first, Let Ramos decide on the players he wants in January, if it doesn't work out sack him in the summer. I'm feeling pretty sick as a spurs fan right now, we should never have got rid of Big Martin Jol! Best manager we've had Since Venables.
As for Grant are you having a laugh????

~Rebel~

I think that mentality is bollox to be honest.

The mans job is to be a manager. If he cant get a team which has plenty of talent, regardless of whether he would rather have other players, doing better then being the very lowest in the league, then he's not doing his job.

I hate this whole idea that when a manager comes in that he gets free reign and 6 months to bring in his own staff. He HAS to be able to do better then the previous man with the assets available first and foremost, otherwise, whats the point?

I would say, fair enough to some degree if someone else picking the players is stopping him progressing from, say, 8th to 5th, but to not be higher then 20th with the likes of Woodgate, King, Bale, Hutton, Dawson, Corluka, Zokora, Bentley, Modric, Lennon, Jenas, Dos Santos, Bent, Pavlyuchenko, players the likes of Stoke and Hull would kill for, then he deserves the sack. Its gross gross underperformance. This isn't under achievement at a level of languishing in mid table - this is last. Dead Last with that team after facing not particularly to notch opposition!

And as for Grant, whats wrong with him? At least he's organised and can get solid effort filled performances from his players, something Ramos has roundly failed to do this season.

PHB

I'm willing to give Ramos some leeway. However all the issues you describe about him are justification for him not being in the top 6 or something, not being dead last. Dead last. Lower than Newcastle and think what's happened to them this year!

therecklessone

charlie mchugh wrote: »

Not but I assume those at Spurs do.

If a player is reacting like that to such an innocuous bump, is it not negligent on behalf of the medical team or coaching staff, to proceed to play him, particularly in light of your current situation.

Jeez charlie, stop being such a tart.

Players play with knocks all the time, maybe the coaching staff felt it was a risk they had to take rather than throw the sub keeper in for his first start?

Mr.Nice Guy

Why is the underperformance of the Tottenham players the fault of Ramos? We always hear fans pinning the blame on the staff rather than the well-paid men on the pitch. Earlier today I read Bentley saying Capello was right to drop him from the England squad as he hasn't been at his best. At least he's honest about it.

I have sympathy for Ramos actually. Robinson, Chimbonda, Malbranque, Gardner, Kaboul, and most significantly Keane and Berbatov have gone - which is pretty much half his team from last season - and the players brought in to fill the void just haven't lived up to expectations.

Ramos was earning plaudits last season when he brought Spurs a trophy and European football yet now in half a year he's suddenly become a bad manager? I don't buy that.

Spurs are in the doldrums no doubt but I don't think sacking Ramos is the answer. They started the season poorly last season too as I recall (not to this extent of course but panicking won't do much use). Tottenham have some very tough games coming up and I think if they act to remove Ramos it will be very foolish.

Charlie

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I would say, fair enough to some degree if someone else picking the players is stopping him progressing from, say, 8th to 5th, but to not be higher then 20th with the likes of Woodgate, King, Bale, Hutton, Dawson, Corluka, Zokora, Bentley, Modric, Lennon, Jenas, Dos Santos, Bent, Pavlyuchenko, players the likes of Stoke and Hull would kill for, then he deserves the sack. Its gross gross underperformance. This isn't under achievement at a level of languishing in mid table - this is last. Dead Last with that team after facing not particularly to notch opposition!

This post is bang on the money.

I suspect also, that the position you have described is something that is confusing? (don't know if that's the right word) spurs fans. It's clear that many of them are disgusted with Levy and and Commoli, and for this reason, probably feel that the anger should be vented at them. But Ramos is very much culpable in this as well.

Charlie

therecklessone wrote: »

Jeez charlie, stop being such a tart.

Players play with knocks all the time, maybe the coaching staff felt it was a risk they had to take rather than throw the sub keeper in for his first start?

Perhaps I am being a 'tart' because I have seen at my own club how this roll of the dice policy can backfire spectacularly time and time again.

The result aside, is Stoke really a big ask for a player who played in the Champions League with Real Madrid.

taidghbaby

david bentley makes berbatov look positively hard working!

Raskolnikov

I seriously can't believe that there are people apologizing for Ramos here. The guy has one of the best squads in the Premier League but has a pathetic 2 points from 24. Not only that, but Spurs do not look even remotely motivated or interested when playing. If Ramos can't get the team to knuckle down, then he should not be there.

Dont be at yourself

The biggest problem isnt Ramos, and the biggest problem isnt the players. The main problem is Spurs' transfer policy - or lack of one. I had to do a double-take today when I saw that Jermaine Jenas was the Spurs captain. Is there nobody around with a stronger connection or who has played for a longer time with Spurs?

Players aren't going to gel as a team with the amount of ins and outs. What Spurs have needed in the Jol years was solid evolution, not radical revolution. Selling Defoe, Keane, Berbatov, Malbranque, Robinson and Chimbonda within such a short space of time was a shocking decision, and the quality and value-for-money of the replacements are questionable. Instead of this massive upheaval every season, a more gradual approach would surely have worked better.

This presumably stems from Comolli and the board, so that is where the real problem lies. However, Ramos is not blameless. He is inconsistent with tactics and team selections, and it is too clear at times that the players don't know what they're supposed to be doing out there. Whether this stems from the language barrier or the adjustment of coming from Spain to England, I don't know.

Snake Plisken

Raskolnikov wrote: »

I seriously can't believe that there are people apologizing for Ramos here. The guy has one of the best squads in the Premier League but has a pathetic 2 points from 24. Not only that, but Spurs do not look even remotely motivated or interested when playing. If Ramos can't get the team to knuckle down, then he should not be there.

Its not one of the best squads, we had one of those last season, this season we have no proven premiership strikers, Bent was 4th choice striker last season and as for Pavlyuchenko he was a waste of money, both Comolli buys btw. If Ramos had the same team he ended the season with and we were in the same position now then I would blame him, but if your a decent DOF you would not be waiting for the last day of the transfer window and be scrambling for load deals for man utd reserve strikers.

Anyway we will see what happens in the coming weeks it might come to a head on Wednesday week as we are playing Arsenal that night, if we lose badly I fear for Ramos's future at the club.

Guy:Incognito

Snake Plisken wrote: »

but if your a decent DOF you would not be waiting for the last day of the transfer window and be scrambling for load deals for man utd reserve strikers.

Did Utd not wait till the last day to scramble for a Spurs striker?

therecklessone

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Players aren't going to gel as a team with the amount of ins and outs. What Spurs have needed in the Jol years was solid evolution, not radical revolution.

While I agree with your point, the pattern was there during Jol's tenure as well. During Jol's 3 years in charge he tried:

4 RBs (Pamarot, Kelly, Stalteri, Chimbonda)
5 LBs (Edman, Atouba, Lee, Ekotto)
7 CBs (King, Naybet, Dawson, Kaboul, Gardner, Davenport, Rocha)

And alternated some players through different positions as well (Lee at RB, Gardner at LB, Atouba on the left side of midfield)

In various positions across the midfield he had:

Redknapp
Davies
Bunjevcevic
Ricketts
Marney
Carrick
Mendes
Davids
Davis
Brown
Lennon
Routledge
Ziegler
Jenas
Murphy
Zokora
Huddlestone
Reid
Ghaly
Boateng
Tainio
Malbranque
Taarabt

23...:eek:

Up front he used:

Keane
Berbatov
Defoe
Mido
Kanoute
Raziak
Bent

Just the 7...

therecklessone

Snake Plisken wrote: »

but if your a decent DOF you would not be waiting for the last day of the transfer window and be scrambling for load deals for man utd reserve strikers.

When will it sink in with you that Levy would not allow Comolli complete any deals for Berbatov's replacement until the Bulgarian was sold, and that Levy wouldn't pay the asking price for Arshavin?

Keep blaming the patsy...:rolleyes:

Dont be at yourself

Did Utd not wait till the last day to scramble for a Spurs striker?

United had Rooney, Tevez, Manucho and Frazier Campbell if the Berbatov deal fell through.

Spurs had only recently sold Defoe and Keane, leaving it late in the day to decide whether or not to sell Berbatov and try and get in replacements.

Denis Irwin

PP are offering odds of 10/3 that Spurs will be relegated. No offence to Spurs fans but at those odds it wouldn't be a bad little flutter considering how Spurs are playing at the moment.

Dont be at yourself

While I agree with your point, the pattern was there during Jol's tenure as well.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. During Jol's tenure, transfer budgets were spent unwisely on wholesale changes or on the occasional misjudged big-money gamble.

I don't know if its down to the fans, the management of the board, but there seems a real sense of impatience when it comes to Spurs moving forward. Instead of constant improvement and evolution, there's usually a sweeping revolution at the first sign of progress slowing down or hitting a wall. Too often it's a case of throwing the baby out with the bath-water, as we're seeing on the pitch this season.

Snake Plisken

therecklessone wrote: »

When will it sink in with you that Levy would not allow Comolli complete any deals for Berbatov's replacement until the Bulgarian was sold, and that Levy wouldn't pay the asking price for Arshavin?

Keep blaming the patsy...:rolleyes:

Ok I grant you that Levy played a part in the Berbatov situation,


BTW when I still cannot understand your hatred of Martin Jol:rolleyes: I think the majority of Spurs fans would have him back in a second if they could!

therecklessone

Snake Plisken wrote: »

BTW when I still cannot understand your hatred of Martin Jol:rolleyes: I think the majority of Spurs fans would have him back in a second if they could!

I don't know where you got the idea I hate him from, I recognised his limitations is all.

Denis Irwin

therecklessone wrote: »

I don't know where you got the idea I hate him from, I recognised his limitations is all.

Is this the same Martin Jol that is now top of the Bundesliga with Hamburg.

therecklessone

Denis Irwin wrote: »

Is this the same Martin Jol that is now top of the Bundesliga with Hamburg.

Are Hull going to qualify for the CL?

How about we see how Martin does at the end of the season, shall we?

mike65

Slight OT, but its a real pity RTE doesn't have its Premier show on a Sunday night if they won't have two a la BBC.

Mike

Snake Plisken

mike65 wrote: »

Slight OT, but its a real pity RTE doesn't have its Premier show on a Sunday night if they won't have two a la BBC.

Mike

Think they do have when the big 4 play on Sundays you will see next weekend they will be on Sunday as Chelsea play Liverpool and Arsenal Vs West Ham and 3 other matches.

OPENROAD

mike65 wrote: »

Slight OT, but its a real pity RTE doesn't have its Premier show on a Sunday night if they won't have two a la BBC.

Mike

Don't think I have ever watched a full RTE Premier league show, I always wait until MOTD.

Think Adrian Chiles is excellent on MOTD 2. By the way it is on pretty late tonight 23:40 BBC 1.

~Rebel~

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Why is the underperformance of the Tottenham players the fault of Ramos? We always hear fans pinning the blame on the staff rather than the well-paid men on the pitch. Earlier today I read Bentley saying Capello was right to drop him from the England squad as he hasn't been at his best. At least he's honest about it.

I have sympathy for Ramos actually. Robinson, Chimbonda, Malbranque, Gardner, Kaboul, and most significantly Keane and Berbatov have gone - which is pretty much half his team from last season - and the players brought in to fill the void just haven't lived up to expectations.

Ramos was earning plaudits last season when he brought Spurs a trophy and European football yet now in half a year he's suddenly become a bad manager? I don't buy that.

Spurs are in the doldrums no doubt but I don't think sacking Ramos is the answer. They started the season poorly last season too as I recall (not to this extent of course but panicking won't do much use). Tottenham have some very tough games coming up and I think if they act to remove Ramos it will be very foolish.

Its the fault of Ramos because he's the Manager. The hint is in the job title. Its his job to manage his resources. Same goes in any industry. If on a particular production line, productivity is especially low, who gets the blame? That lines manager. Because he's not getting the best out his resources. Likewise here, he has some fantastic assets which he hasn't managed to get the best out of. Thats his Job - get the best out of them. if the players gave their all week in week out, a manager wouldn't have a job besides picking a team. unfortunately thats not the way it is, some need to be cajoled, some loved, some given abuse, some given time off. He's clearly not doing what is needed.

The fact that he did well previously (though truth be told they went through long stretches of being awful in the league under Ramos last year too), doesn't mean much. Sure Houllier accomplished great things in his first 3 years at Liverpool, 2major trophies and a minor one in a season, followed by only missing out on the title by a few points the following season didn't stop him losing the dressing room 2 years later, and subsequently being rightly fired.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

The biggest problem isnt Ramos, and the biggest problem isnt the players. The main problem is Spurs' transfer policy - or lack of one. I had to do a double-take today when I saw that Jermaine Jenas was the Spurs captain. Is there nobody around with a stronger connection or who has played for a longer time with Spurs?

Players aren't going to gel as a team with the amount of ins and outs. What Spurs have needed in the Jol years was solid evolution, not radical revolution. Selling Defoe, Keane, Berbatov, Malbranque, Robinson and Chimbonda within such a short space of time was a shocking decision, and the quality and value-for-money of the replacements are questionable. Instead of this massive upheaval every season, a more gradual approach would surely have worked better.

This presumably stems from Comolli and the board, so that is where the real problem lies. However, Ramos is not blameless. He is inconsistent with tactics and team selections, and it is too clear at times that the players don't know what they're supposed to be doing out there. Whether this stems from the language barrier or the adjustment of coming from Spain to England, I don't know.

Again this is a reason to be languishing in mid table, not LAST. Hull brought in a whole new team and look at them, likewise look at Sunderland. A team that isn't gelled fully won't win the league or maybe even finish top half, but a team with that level of talent HAS to at least be free from worrying about relegation!

Mr.Nice Guy

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Its the fault of Ramos because he's the Manager. The hint is in the job title. Its his job to manage his resources. Same goes in any industry. If on a particular production line, productivity is especially low, who gets the blame? That lines manager. Because he's not getting the best out his resources. Likewise here, he has some fantastic assets which he hasn't managed to get the best out of. Thats his Job - get the best out of them. if the players gave their all week in week out, a manager wouldn't have a job besides picking a team. unfortunately thats not the way it is, some need to be cajoled, some loved, some given abuse, some given time off. He's clearly not doing what is needed.

I don't accept that. The underperformance of the players is the fault of the players. As you would say, the hint is in the job title. It's not up to Juande Ramos to make sure David Bentley has his game together, it's up to David Bentley. Same goes for the rest of the donkeys. Ramos' job is indeed to get the best out of his resources but if the resources aren't up to scratch, how is that his fault? If these players produced the performances that they are capable of they wouldn't be in the situation they find themselves in.

~Rebel~ wrote:

The fact that he did well previously (though truth be told they went through long stretches of being awful in the league under Ramos last year too), doesn't mean much. Sure Houllier accomplished great things in his first 3 years at Liverpool, 2major trophies and a minor one in a season, followed by only missing out on the title by a few points the following season didn't stop him losing the dressing room 2 years later, and subsequently being rightly fired.

I could use the example of Rafa Benitez and cite the calls for him to be fired last season. The players were doing badly and there was a real belief for a time that Everton could well pip them to fourth spot. The players weren't doing what was required of them and many saw Benitez as the problem rather than the squad. They kept faith with Benitez though and he secured the Champions League spot and is now doing pretty well in the league.

I think a lot of football fans wrongfully believe there is a magic bullet solution to a team's woes. Look at Newcastle. 'Sure it's the manager's fault so give him the bullet and everything will be hunky dory'. It isn't always like that. Man United are another classic example. Ferguson at one stage was under the cosh but they kept faith with him and have reaped the rewards.

As I said before I don't believe Ramos has suddenly become a bad manager and considering the hassle they went through to secure him I think they ought to stick with him.

PHB

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't accept that. The underperformance of the players is the fault of the players. As you would say, the hint is in the job title. It's not up to Juande Ramos to make sure David Bentley has his game together, it's up to David Bentley. Same goes for the rest of the donkeys. Ramos' job is indeed to get the best out of his resources but if the resources aren't up to scratch, how is that his fault? If these players produced the performances that they are capable of they wouldn't be in the situation they find themselves in.

No doubt. But thats down to the system and the motivation. That is the managers job. If the manager is unhappy with the player, he should do whatever Wenger or Fergie would do to get the best. There is no way that Fergie or Wenger would have the team performing as it is. It's down to the manager.

I could use the example of Rafa Benitez and cite the calls for him to be fired last season. The players were doing badly and there was a real belief for a time that Everton could well pip them to fourth spot. The players weren't doing what was required of them and many saw Benitez as the problem rather than the squad. They kept faith with Benitez though and he secured the Champions League spot and is now doing pretty well in the league.

I think a lot of football fans wrongfully believe there is a magic bullet solution to a team's woes. Look at Newcastle. 'Sure it's the manager's fault so give him the bullet and everything will be hunky dory'. It isn't always like that. Man United are another classic example. Ferguson at one stage was under the cosh but they kept faith with him and have reaped the rewards.

As I said before I don't believe Ramos has suddenly become a bad manager and considering the hassle they went through to secure him I think they ought to stick with him.

Look, there's a difference between not performing well enough to win a league as you cited in the Benetiz and Fergie examples , and being in teh relegation zone.
Even if you accept different clubs have different expectations, Liverpool languishing in 5th place is roughly similar to Spurs languishing mid-table. Spurs having 2 points after 8 games 2!, would be like Liverpool being in 14th place. If that was the case, people would already be calling for Rafa's head, and rightly bloody so.

He won the league cup, great. But the team has regressed massively since then, massively. And he is to blame. You can say whatever you want about the squad not being balanced enough, and too much rotation in players, but those are reason why they won't be top 4, not 2 points after 8 games!

~Rebel~

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't accept that. The underperformance of the players is the fault of the players. As you would say, the hint is in the job title. It's not up to Juande Ramos to make sure David Bentley has his game together, it's up to David Bentley. Same goes for the rest of the donkeys. Ramos' job is indeed to get the best out of his resources but if the resources aren't up to scratch, how is that his fault? If these players produced the performances that they are capable of they wouldn't be in the situation they find themselves in.

If its an exception of 1 or 2 players then yes fair enough, those guys are just wasted causes, one could argue that everything has been tried and they just suck. But this isn't 1 or 2 players, its the whole team Bar 1 or 2 players. Yes the players are to blame too, but ultimately if the manager cant get the best out of any of a whole big group of guys, then you have to figure theres something to it.

He's working with these guys day in day out and they dont seem to give a fuck, where they all have played significantly better under other people. Be it the system, or the training, or the treatment of the players, Something is clearly wrong to have caused such a capitulation in such a group of talented players, and thats the managers responsibility

I could use the example of Rafa Benitez and cite the calls for him to be fired last season. The players were doing badly and there was a real belief for a time that Everton could well pip them to fourth spot. The players weren't doing what was required of them and many saw Benitez as the problem rather than the squad. They kept faith with Benitez though and he secured the Champions League spot and is now doing pretty well in the league.

I think a lot of football fans wrongfully believe there is a magic bullet solution to a team's woes. Look at Newcastle. 'Sure it's the manager's fault so give him the bullet and everything will be hunky dory'. It isn't always like that. Man United are another classic example. Ferguson at one stage was under the cosh but they kept faith with him and have reaped the rewards.

As I said before I don't believe Ramos has suddenly become a bad manager and considering the hassle they went through to secure him I think they ought to stick with him.

Thats actually a good example to pick for My side of the argument. People were calling for Rafa's head (imo prematurely) because he was doing slightly worse then expected, say the equivilent of Spurs being in 8th or 10th rather then 5th. Ramos team is LAST. L.A.S.T. With a 1/4 of the season gone. With most of the tough fixtures still to come. That is, like, so far past the line of expectation that he cant even see where the initial expectation was anymore. If Rafa's team had been down between 10th and 15th at this stage of the season already, any hope of achieveing the clubs expectation before the season gone (top 4 and challenge to some degree), being made look like fools week in week out I would imagine his continued employment would be very much in doubt.

I agree that firing managers willy nilly is not the way to go, but theres a limit. I mean today Tottenham Hotspur with a not at all bad team, not as good as could have been put out with better spending, but still not half bad, boasting an array of internationals, was absolutely bossed around by Stoke City. And have been bossed by another half dozen equally unimpressive names this season.

Snake Plisken

PHB wrote: »

No doubt. But thats down to the system and the motivation. That is the managers job. If the manager is unhappy with the player, he should do whatever Wenger or Fergie would do to get the best. There is no way that Fergie or Wenger would have the team performing as it is. It's down to the manager.



Look, there's a difference between not performing well enough to win a league as you cited in the Benetiz and Fergie examples , and being in teh relegation zone.
Even if you accept different clubs have different expectations, Liverpool languishing in 5th place is roughly similar to Spurs languishing mid-table. Spurs having 2 points after 8 games 2!, would be like Liverpool being in 14th place. If that was the case, people would already be calling for Rafa's head, and rightly bloody so.

He won the league cup, great. But the team has regressed massively since then, massively. And he is to blame. You can say whatever you want about the squad not being balanced enough, and too much rotation in players, but those are reason why they won't be top 4, not 2 points after 8 games!

Again, Ramos had his top 3 strikers sold out from under him before the start of the season, with no decent replacements brought in and also Malbranque to Sunderland was also bad business any manager would struggle in that situation, so the buck stops with the Chairman and the Director of Football! They didn't have to sell Keane, look at Utd with Ronaldo & Villa with Barry, both players wanted to leave their respective clubs but weren't allowed! Spurs could have done the same but Levy wanted the money! He has had his shot time for the chairman to get out and take Holy Comolli with him :mad:

eagle eye

therecklessone wrote: »

While I agree with your point, the pattern was there during Jol's tenure as well. During Jol's 3 years in charge he tried:

4 RBs (Pamarot, Kelly, Stalteri, Chimbonda)
5 LBs (Edman, Atouba, Lee, Ekotto)
7 CBs (King, Naybet, Dawson, Kaboul, Gardner, Davenport, Rocha)

And alternated some players through different positions as well (Lee at RB, Gardner at LB, Atouba on the left side of midfield)

In various positions across the midfield he had:

Redknapp
Davies
Bunjevcevic
Ricketts
Marney
Carrick
Mendes
Davids
Davis
Brown
Lennon
Routledge
Ziegler
Jenas
Murphy
Zokora
Huddlestone
Reid
Ghaly
Boateng
Tainio
Malbranque
Taarabt

23...:eek:

Up front he used:

Keane
Berbatov
Defoe
Mido
Kanoute
Raziak
Bent

Just the 7...

The biggest loss for Spurs over the last couple of years has been Frank Arneson.
I agree with the guy who says that Martin Jol is limited as a Manager. He was fine when Arneson was there. It was after he left that things started to get gradually worse.

~Rebel~

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Again, Ramos had his top 3 strikers sold out from under him before the start of the season, with no decent replacements brought in and also Malbranque to Sunderland was also bad business any manager would struggle in that situation, so the buck stops with the Chairman and the Director of Football! They didn't have to sell Keane, look at Utd with Ronaldo & Villa with Barry, both players wanted to leave their respective clubs but weren't allowed! Spurs could have done the same but Levy wanted the money! He has had his shot time for the chairman to get out and take Holy Comolli with him :mad:

Are you serious?! Yes for Spurs that sucks, and it would cost them positions in the table but again - We're talking LAST!

Are you honestly going to tell me that half the other teams in the league wouldn't kill to be able to start Darren Bent and Roman Pavlyuchenko up front? Yeah its not as ideal as it could have been but it sure as shit beats the likes of Caleb Folan and Vincent Pericard!

Yes its a rubbish situation altogether, but I will bet you that Pulis would swap squads in a heartbeat.

Mr.Nice Guy

PHB wrote: »

No doubt. But thats down to the system and the motivation. That is the managers job. If the manager is unhappy with the player, he should do whatever Wenger or Fergie would do to get the best. There is no way that Fergie or Wenger would have the team performing as it is. It's down to the manager.

I don't think it's a tactical issue though. To go back to Bentley for example, he's not underperforming because of where he's being played but because he's just been muck. And does he really need motivation from his manager?

PHB wrote:

Look, there's a difference between not performing well enough to win a league as you cited in the Benetiz and Fergie examples , and being in teh relegation zone.
Even if you accept different clubs have different expectations, Liverpool languishing in 5th place is roughly similar to Spurs languishing mid-table. Spurs having 2 points after 8 games 2!, would be like Liverpool being in 14th place. If that was the case, people would already be calling for Rafa's head, and rightly bloody so.

In the 2003/04 season Everton and David Moyes finished 17th. Was that down to Moyes being a poor manager then? Should he have been sacked?

I think we would both say the answer is a resounding no. I would be of the view that it is a similar situation with Ramos.

~Rebel wrote:

If its an exception of 1 or 2 players then yes fair enough, those guys are just wasted causes, one could argue that everything has been tried and they just suck. But this isn't 1 or 2 players, its the whole team Bar 1 or 2 players. Yes the players are to blame too, but ultimately if the manager cant get the best out of any of a whole big group of guys, then you have to figure theres something to it.

He's working with these guys day in day out and they dont seem to give a ****, where they all have played significantly better under other people. Be it the system, or the training, or the treatment of the players, Something is clearly wrong to have caused such a capitulation in such a group of talented players, and thats the managers responsibility

I agree with you something is not right at the club. If reports are to be believed he's not best pleased with whatever is going on. I just think Tottenham are at a very dangerous point right now and they need to be careful how they go on from here.

~Rebel~ wrote:

Thats actually a good example to pick for My side of the argument. People were calling for Rafa's head (imo prematurely) because he was doing slightly worse then expected, say the equivilent of Spurs being in 8th or 10th rather then 5th. Ramos team is LAST. L.A.S.T. With a 1/4 of the season gone. With most of the tough fixtures still to come. That is, like, so far past the line of expectation that he cant even see where the initial expectation was anymore. If Rafa's team had been down between 10th and 15th at this stage of the season already, any hope of achieveing the clubs expectation before the season gone (top 4 and challenge to some degree), being made look like fools week in week out I would imagine his continued employment would be very much in doubt.

I take your point that Spurs are in a perilous position but I think the club needs to weigh up its options and realise that it's best to try and see this stormy period through. If they sack Ramos and put say Poyet in charge will things really improve for them? I'm not convinced.

~Rebel~ wrote:

I agree that firing managers willy nilly is not the way to go, but theres a limit. I mean today Tottenham Hotspur with a not at all bad team, not as good as could have been put out with better spending, but still not half bad, boasting an array of internationals, was absolutely bossed around by Stoke City. And have been bossed by another half dozen equally unimpressive names this season.

I wouldn't say they were bossed around at all. Sure they were down to ten men and dominated the first half. Pulis said after the game getting to half-time break was crucial. Even at 9 men they almost got back into the game.

I think Spurs just need a bit of good fortune. I fancy them to get 3 points on the board against Bolton. It's imperative they do so. If they don't I'll admit they need a change of direction.

Xavi6

:pac:

SuprSi

Xavi6 wrote: »

:pac:

Heh, I had to immediately go onto Google to confirm that this was fake!! I'm so insecure with my team right now!

Charlie

Xavi6 wrote: »

:pac:

I saw that alright. F365 is nearly in meltdown with all this spurs stuff.




The first thing I saw in a thread entitled 'Lets All Laugh At Spurzzzzz



I don't know why, but that crackd me up.

I should stop all this though, as I really am in no position to be throwing stones.

Fratton Fred

Apparantly there are no trains running in North London, due to a points failure at Tottenham.

Darren Bent is ill so Jaunde Ramos offers to do his shopping for him.
whilst he's in Tesco's he bumps into Arsene Wenger
"what brings you in here?" Juande asks Arsene,
"gettin a bag of potatoes for Darren Bent" he replies
"Sounds like a good swap if you ask me" say Wenger

Charlie

Newcastle side in:

Given
Beye (excellant to see him back)
Colo
Taylor
Bassong
Duff
Geremi
Butt (C)
Guthrie
Ameobi :rolleyes:
Martins

Pity there is no Spiderman, but I guess it's best not to rush that kind of injury.

I would imagine it will be a 4-3-3, with Duff hanging off the two front men.

Denis Irwin

:pac:

Snake Plisken

eagle eye wrote: »

The biggest loss for Spurs over the last couple of years has been Frank Arneson.
I agree with the guy who says that Martin Jol is limited as a Manager. He was fine when Arneson was there. It was after he left that things started to get gradually worse.

Spot on sir! Martin Jol was Frank Arnesons man, if we could have got him to stay we would have had a lot more stability, we would more then likely still have Martin at the club and have continued to grow the squad with players that both the manager and the director of football agreed upon. But no Levy in his wisdom brings in Arse bengers best mate as DOF, he doesn't see eye to eye on player signings with Jol and wants to get his choice of manager in place, so he gets his wish and we get Ramos, most of his signings have been second rate, and even Ramos hinted that he didn't agree with the signings at the weekend, but wouldn't elaborate further.
Bottom line if Ramos is shown the door then Comolli should go as well. My preferred option would be to show Holy Comolli the door and get a DOF who Ramos agrees with and give him more time.
I doubt that will happen, as common sense doesn't happen in these situations.
I also believe Levy needs to shoulder a lot of the blame in the current situation, he hired Comolli and sold gave the go-ahead on selling Robbie, giving the crap excuse of Robbies head was turned and didn't want to play for us.

Vokes

Ever the optimist, im hoping for a 4-4 thriller for tonights game