Team Orders

dresden8

I see Massa was let through to get second place.

Am I mistaken or was there some sort of move a couple of years ago against team orders?

As an aside I like Hamilton but jeez if he wins British tv will go spazzo and it'll be worse than 1966.

Sabre0001

That's why Kimi constantly said "I know what the team expects of me". And that's not the only recent example of new "team orders" so let's not start another Ferrari witchhunt...

EvilMonkey

dresden8 wrote: »

I see Massa was let through to get second place.

Am I mistaken or was there some sort of move a couple of years ago against team orders?

As an aside I like Hamilton but jeez if he wins British tv will go spazzo and it'll be worse than 1966.

Well its not the first time "team orders" have been used this season but it was the most obvious. The team cant tell the driver to let a teammate pass but the driver can let a teammate pass on his own. Kimi is not stupid if the situation is reversed next season Massa will do the same for him like he did last year.
Its also against the rules to retire a perfectly good car to save the engine for the next race. :P

rua1972

Kimi wasn't told to let massa pas, not during the race anyway. So technically it wasn't a team order. But Massa is still fighting for the title and for the constructors title it doesn't matter in which order they finish 2nd and 3rd. On the other hand it was a nice reward for all the times massa moved over for Schumacher. During the press conference after the race they explained it very simple, it's for the constructor's championship.

robinph

It was the most exciting part of the hole race though. And I don't actually mean the "overtaking" move, when Kimi was trying to keep a straight face in the press conference afterwards whilst he quickly tried to come up with some plausable reason for why he was slowing down. Has to be the most animmated I think I've ever seen Kimi as he usually just sits there and mumbles something unintelligble into the mic.

EvilMonkey

robinph wrote: »

It was the most exciting part of the hole race though. And I don't actually mean the "overtaking" move, when Kimi was trying to keep a straight face in the press conference afterwards whilst he quickly tried to come up with some plausable reason for why he was slowing down. Has to be the most animmated I think I've ever seen Kimi as he usually just sits there and mumbles something unintelligble into the mic.

Yeah that was funny i thought Kimi explained it well he basically said i did what i had to do, but he was struggling to keep a straight face. Massa made a complete balls of his explanation rambling on for ages and looked embarrassed. Funniest bit was when he said "After the first few laps we were able to match Hamilton's pace, well Kimi was" or something like that.

Pity the highlight of the race was the press conference and Kimi giving Fisi the fingers after he held him up.

IanCurtis

Hamilton deserves to win the title. He's not the best driver (Alonso) and he's not in the best car (Ferrari) but he's the best of both.

I know he comes across as a bollox, but I hope he takes it. He seriously talented and a bit wreckless and his hero is Senna.

Leave the tabloid ****e aside and let's watch the youngest champion take the title.

Steve

Kimi had nothing to lose or gain by it, constructors c'ship had nothing to lose or gain by it so why not?
He gave his team mate a better chance at the title.
I think it was team loyalty more than team orders.

Sabre0001

IanCurtis wrote: »

Hamilton deserves to win the title. He's not the best driver (Alonso) and he's not in the best car (Ferrari) but he's the best of both.

I know he comes across as a bollox, but I hope he takes it. He seriously talented and a bit wreckless and his hero is Senna.

Leave the tabloid ****e aside and let's watch the youngest champion take the title.

I'd disagree with you in saying that he's not in the best car - despite not being the quickest IN-race (lack of fastest laps), look at qualifying pace, the fact that it can function in all weather conditions.

Then you look at the Ferrari which goes sideways at the hint that the track may be damp, drives backwards in the rain and needs a certain temperature range

muckwarrior

I thought when this became an issue a few years ago it was agreed that team orders would be allowed toward the end of a championship when only one driver had a chance of winning? I.e. not allowed to jump out of Schumacher's way 3 races into the season.

zeris

Fading brakes a la Irvine.

vectra

IanCurtis wrote: »

Hamilton deserves to win the title. He's not the best driver (Alonso) and he's not in the best car (Ferrari) but he's the best of both.

I know he comes across as a bollox, but I hope he takes it. He seriously talented and a bit wreckless and his hero is Senna.

Leave the tabloid ****e aside and let's watch the youngest champion take the title.

Hamilton IS IN THE BEST CAR
That why he is where he is in the championship
You dont think he would be up there in anything other than a McLaren in all honesty do you ?
Remind us of the Reliability they suffered this year??
NONE
Exactly

You could put a chicken in that car and it would win races :rolleyes:

Steve

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Eh Kovi had an engine failure last race, not to mention the wishbones the replaced on both cars just before the race on Sunday.

Engine failure? - that smells of porkie pies.

Brakes overheating before the start.... clouds of brake dust in the pitstops.... brake manufacturer waiting in the garage when he retired......

Hmmmm.... if we call engine failure then we get a free engine change for Brazil, what to do, what to do, what to do.....:rolleyes:

vectra

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Eh Kovi had an engine failure last race, not to mention the wishbones the replaced on both cars just before the race on Sunday.

ONE Engine in the whole season doesnt add up to much .. especially when it was NOT on Hamsters car
Changing wishbones before the race..!!
How did that hinder their race???

SteveC wrote: »

Engine failure? - that smells of porkie pies.

Brakes overheating before the start.... clouds of brake dust in the pitstops.... brake manufacturer waiting in the garage when he retired......

Hmmmm.... if we call engine failure then we get a free engine change for Brazil, what to do, what to do, what to do.....:rolleyes:

I dont know if I am reading your post right but I think what was meant was that Kovi had an engine failure in Fuji
Something that could ( Hopefully ) happen to Hamster in Brazil on his final lap half way round the track while leading

Steve

vectra wrote: »

I dont know if I am reading your post right but I think what was meant was that Kovi had an engine failure in Fuji
Something that could ( Hopefully ) happen to Hamster in Brazil on his final lap half way round the track while leading

From what I heard, Merc/McL are falsely calling 'engine failure' in China as the reason Kovi retired, therefore they get to change it without any penalty. I think it's a sham.

vectra

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You really dont have a clue do you vectra. You say that the McLarens havent had any reliablity problems and then when pointed out that they did you say the a engine failure "doesnt add up to much". Ill let you in on a little fact the engine is a pretty big part of the car so when it fails its usually a bad thing.

Again changing wishbones could mean many things they didnt change them for the sake of it. Then in the next race one of their cars has to retire due to brake problems. If Hamilitons engines blows in the next race I`d like to see you say it didnt add up to much.

Do you enjoy acting a knobhead with my posts at every given chance?

What I was insuating was:

1 engine failure does not add up to much compared to the reliability issues thair main competitors have had.
Now,
Had you taken enough time to take your head out of where the sun dont shine you would have understood this .. Or maybe you are the one that doesnt have a clue ... Maybe you are a general (Know-it-all ) :rolleyes:


As for changing the wishbones...?
When exactly did they change them?
And of course I know they change them for a reason..
Did you think they changed them as they had nothing else to do and was getting bored?


And your last point.

If Hamilitons engines blows in the next race I`d like to see you say it didnt add up to much.

Yes it would add up to something in case you didnt notice
It would add up to that brat getting what he deserves

muckwarrior

I can't stand Hamilton either but at least I'm mature enough to admit that he's a fast driver. He may be in the best car, but certainly not by much. I like Massa and Raikonnen, but neither of them deserve to win the championship this year, way too inconsistent. I just hope that BMW are competitive next year and Alonso has a decent car. Him and Kubica have the speed and consistency to be deserving world champions.

vectra

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I`m the person who in drives race cars in real life and your the person who plays with remote control cars, something I did when I was 12. I reply to your posts because you seem to not have a clue. Im no know it all but I have some knowledge of racing.

You stated a few weeks ago that a certain 7 time WC only won his 7 championships because of cheating and/or running people off the track, when you say things like that you will get such responses.

Are you avoiding my question for some reason?

"When exactly did they change the wishbones" ?

Oh
and for your info
They are NOT
Remote control cars as you call them
And if you wake up and smell the coffee you would see for yourself that there are some people in this world earn MORE than some F1 ( Or lower grade race drivers like yourself) by racing Radio control cars.. Which may I add takes some knowledge to set up for diffeent tracks etc.
If you cannot set it up you cannot drive it.
So,
When exactly did they change the wishbones?

zeris

vectra wrote: »

are some people in this world earn MORE than some F1 ( Or lower grade race drivers like yourself) by racing Radio control cars..

Really? I presume this is because a RC racer has a longer career than a F1 driver; especially a one season pay F1 driver. Even still, would a RC racer earn $1m in a year like Sutil (his suspected salary)?

ven0m

SteveC wrote: »

Hmmmm.... if we call engine failure then we get a free engine change for Brazil, what to do, what to do, what to do.....:rolleyes:

What 'free engine change' .... no joker changes in the last two races of the season ......

Ficus wrote: »

i dont believe that for one moment, do you have anything to back that claim up??

Yes, Some F-1 drivers in recent years more or less paid to drive or have their seat, so technically he's right.

ven0m

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Even if you are paying for your drive your not completetly out of pocket. Their is still sponsership/advertising and other various sources of income. I know one or two guys who were given a nice car as part of their deal. Not to mention you are put up in the best hotels driven around in very nice cars. And I wont even mention other benefits

I won't dispute that at all, but some of the Asian drivers in the last few years at low end teams were blatantly paying for their drive & having to bring sponsors, with some losing drives mid-season due to their sponsors not paying the money owed to the team as I do recall.

But sure, they do get nice hotels & other perks, but they are paying towards it all.

Steve

ven0m wrote: »

What 'free engine change' .... no joker changes in the last two races of the season .....

It's not a joker change, it's a failure change.

The point I am making is I believe he retired due to brake problems, the engine didn't appear to have any problems on-track and he drove in and parked in the garage where the brakes manufacturer was waiting. They couldn't even touch the (front right I think) wheel as it was so hot from the overheating brakes.
After all this they announced that he retired because of engine failure - thereby giving him a new engine for brazil.

Watch the smoke coming from his wheel before the start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em0jjMpkjVw

Kovi (and both Ferarri's) will have new engines going to Brazil (and they won't have to conserve them for a second race), Hammo will have the same engine as in China and will need to be a bit more conservative to get through the race.

more here (itv.com)

Edit: Ron Dennis even said they retired him to "avoid" an engine failure.

“After his first stop, a punctured tyre then forced an unscheduled pit stop before an air pressure problem with his engine caused us to retire him in order to avoid risking an engine failure."

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=44354

ven0m

Fair enough, but if it's all above board, & the marshall, FIA etc have no issues - then we've all got a great race to look forward to in Brazil.

Team orders are a fact of motorsport, like them or not. Yes, Ferrari really took the piss with their 'staged finish' attempt crap, but it happens. When you've one driver vying for a WDC title, of course you're going to try help your second guy along to give him as much 'support' as possible in the bid.

Either way, I think we've ha a great championship so far (despite some farces/contraversies etc), with many different race winners this year instead of the usual two horse **** we've endured for so long.

ven0m

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Thats it is a fair point but the majority of the drivers are on a nice pay package and I`m sure you would agree with my that they are earning more than RC racers!

well, it wouldn't suprise me if some ****-hot-hotshot RC racer from Japan for example was on some ridiculous earnings per year from endorsements, as I've seen Asian 'sports stars' (this is where sports should be replaced by HOBBY) being paid ridiculous sums from even more ridiculous endorsement packages......

but, you are in essence very very right :-)

ven0m

Ficus wrote: »

well thats not exactly true, because although one or two have paid to race so to speak, they are paid a wage from the team based on the sponsors they brought in to the team.

And the drivers who LOST their seats due to sponsors not paying money at Jordan & Minardi in their last few motor racing seasons?

zeris

ven0m wrote: »

And the drivers who LOST their seats due to sponsors not paying money at Jordan & Minardi in their last few motor racing seasons?

Breech of contract?

EvilMonkey

SteveC wrote: »

It's not a joker change, it's a failure change.

The point I am making is I believe he retired due to brake problems, the engine didn't appear to have any problems on-track and he drove in and parked in the garage where the brakes manufacturer was waiting. They couldn't even touch the (front right I think) wheel as it was so hot from the overheating brakes.
After all this they announced that he retired because of engine failure - thereby giving him a new engine for brazil.

Watch the smoke coming from his wheel before the start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em0jjMpkjVw

Kovi (and both Ferarri's) will have new engines going to Brazil (and they won't have to conserve them for a second race), Hammo will have the same engine as in China and will need to be a bit more conservative to get through the race.

more here (itv.com)

Edit: Ron Dennis even said they retired him to "avoid" an engine failure.

http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=44354

They retired the car early to save the engine a few laps at race pace so it will be fresher in Brazil, if they change the engine they will get a grid penalty.

ven0m wrote: »

And the drivers who LOST their seats due to sponsors not paying money at Jordan & Minardi in their last few motor racing seasons?

Most were kept on as test drivers so they still get payed.

Steve

EvilMonkey wrote: »

They retired the car early to save the engine a few laps at race pace so it will be fresher in Brazil, if they change the engine they will get a grid penalty.

Nope, they're changing the engine due to "engine failure" so they won't get a penalty.

According to McLaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh:
“Lewis’s engine will be on its second race in Sao Paulo while Heikki will use a brand new V8, so we can balance the two approaches to engine life.
“In terms of gearbox life, Lewis’s will be on race three while Heikki will start the weekend with a new ’box – but the level of reliability inherent in the gearbox means we anticipate fewer problems in this area."

EvilMonkey

SteveC wrote: »

Nope, they're changing the engine due to "engine failure" so they won't get a penalty.

According to McLaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh:
“Lewis’s engine will be on its second race in Sao Paulo while Heikki will use a brand new V8, so we can balance the two approaches to engine life.
“In terms of gearbox life, Lewis’s will be on race three while Heikki will start the weekend with a new ’box – but the level of reliability inherent in the gearbox means we anticipate fewer problems in this area."

I didnt know that how are they not getting a grid penalty? Unless Heikki,s engine was on its second race?

G-Money

Because it was Ferrari it was team made's racing each other and one making a successful legal pass on the other. If it was any other team, especially McLaren, it would have mean them being kicked out of the championship immediately.

vectra

grandmaster wrote: »

Because it was Ferrari it was team made's racing each other and one making a successful legal pass on the other. If it was any other team, especially McLaren, it would have mean them being kicked out of the championship immediately.

Dont be so ridiculous.
If kovi wanted to leave Lewis pass him at every single race in one season there would be no problem
It is purely at his own discretion.

EvilMonkey

grandmaster wrote: »

Because it was Ferrari it was team made's racing each other and one making a successful legal pass on the other. If it was any other team, especially McLaren, it would have mean them being kicked out of the championship immediately.

As i said before Ferrari weren't the first team to use "team orders" this season. Kovi has let Hamilton go a couple of times, at least Ferrari waited until it was impossible for kimi to win the championship.