shooting and your friends

TheBigLebowski

marlin vs wrote: »

I'm talking about killing for entertainment, not killing for food. I also have many issues with commercial livestock and the treatment of anmals involved in that but that's a discussion for another board

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I'm afraid Big L, YOU'R OFF TOPIC, read the heading of this topic, (shooting and you'r FRIEND'S) The only thing cruel is the price of butter, and the torture of golfball's,next we'll be cribbing about golf., tell the truth you love BIG MAC'S

Good point well made dude.

TheBigLebowski

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well which ones are "bad" then??

The ones who do bad things.

Grizzly 45 wrote:

.

Why???And who gave YOU the moral right to decide whats "good for us"??This is what pisses me off with anti meat eaters /hunters etc.The God given ASSUMPTION that they know whats better for us and this moralistic smugness that they are somhow superior for not eating meat from the rest of us untermenschen!!

We all have an opinion on how society should behave. This is just mine. Reasons for being vegetarian? Here's 49 good ones to start.

Grizzly 45 wrote:

Fair enough your opinion/consience..But us hunters know what it takes to put our dinner on our plates,so we really dont have a problem with this...

Not exactly legal in Ireland so we would thank you not to compare us to criminals thank you very much!!!:mad::mad:

Ok, calm down. If you read the discussion I was talking about how humans often kill for entertainment. Isn't foxhunting legal in Ireland?

dresden8

Okay, TBL is a veggie and doesn't like hunting. We get it.

But what does everybody's friends think?

Grizzly 45

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

The ones who do bad things.

Who for example???Care to make a rational explanation??? :rolleyes:

We all have an opinion on how society should behave. This is just mine. Reasons for being vegetarian? Here's 49 good ones to start.

Yeah?And I and everyone else has an opinion how society should be run.Doesnt give us the right to lord it over others with our opinions or to try and shove them down others throats,or resort to violent means to do so.Plenty of "peaceful vegans" tried that one and came to sticky ends.
If you want to enforce your opinions,go away and get elected by democratic majority means and make it law.

As for the 49 "facts":D:D:D:D:D well,after reading that propaganda from Viva!!! Yeah a really unbiased source:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.I'll stick with eating food that humans have eaten for thousands of years.

Ok, calm down. If you read the discussion I was talking about how humans often kill for entertainment. Isn't foxhunting legal in Ireland?

Yes it is.But then again humans do really weirdS**ite for entertainment,and compared to many of them that fit in the sick/perverted,nutty,outright lunacy etc,chasing a fox [which is a pretty smart critter anyway ]on horses with hounds is pretty tame.Beats me how they ever catch a fox anyway with all that racket and noise.

Voodoo2

I dont go hunting.. but I do a lot of clay pigeon, have my own trap and I head off to different friends houses who have land and we shoot off a couple of boxes of cartridges - So I dont ever shoot a living thing - outside of my group of friends people are like cool great way to spend a day etc but some would say how can you keep a weapon in your house like that dangerous and stuff, but when you explain to them where its kept in a safe and the whole procedure of getting a "gun", and how most clay grounds have good safety manners and dont take any crap they tend to get interested and want to come along!

On the hunting side, its just my preference that i don't shoot living things its not in me no way against it love some pheasant, i leave it to other people, but a funny thing was when i went to get my grandmothers signature for land BTW she is anti guns because of the reports on the news - she was ok about it, and asked what i would be shooting, told her clays explained all that then she asked.. what about a pheasant would the gun kill one she said to keep her in mind! I laughed for a while after leaving her house,

Might have drifted off topic - but its mixed feelings out there with my friends, alot is fueled by the media, but taking them along to a target session, clay or paper targets the whole caveman urges appear when they pull the trigger and things go bang! shooting becomes acceptable and then showing how hunting is for food - and let be honest people the fun is in the shoot, the preparing the chase, day out, social aspect etc the fun is not seeing an animal drop when shot! when all thats explained 90% will accept it the rest will not!

meathstevie

TheBigLebowski, I do enjoy to hunt and making a kill is part of that experience. In my opinion it's as straightforward as that. The next step is the result of the hunt on the table.

From a food point of view animal cruelty is actually very counter productive. An animal that didn't die as quickly as it should have will never give you the same quality of meat as one that did due to the physical consequences of extreme stress.

whitser

my best mate thinks fox hunting is cruel. he often has a go at me(in a banter kind of way) for killing beautiful foxes etc.....we still go for pints every week and he was best man and i'll be his. he doesnt mind shooting rabbits but thinks fox hunting is bad:rolleyes:. he cant seem to see the contradiction in that.
just cos some friends dont agree with hunting doesnt mean you cant still get on. he's no interest in hearing how my days hunting went and i've no interested in telling him. i have a lot of friends who hunt/shoot and some who just cant see the enjoyment at all. but a friend got really heavy over it i just tell him to fcuk off.

whitser

There are many instances where people kill for entertainment. From badger baiting, foxhunting, bullfights to name a few so why am I dim because I say people enjoy killing? They probably enjoy the thrill of the chase too which is probably why they don't just kill rats/crows.

wow wow wow wow wow. the age old anti tricked of comparing fox hunting to badger baiting and dog fighting etc...when a fox is killed during a hunt its almost instant, matter of seconds. there is no fight, hounds kill the fox instantly. all hunters hunt for the enloyment. its an enjoyable process to watch a dog you've trained and reared from a pup go out and do what comes natural to him. when your out in the fields with your dogs its feels totally natural. the kill after a hunt wether its a pheasant or fox is the end result of everything thats went before. and its that part thats enjoyable. watching the dog work, being out in the fields on a frosty morning, making a difficult shot, hearing the hounds cry,admiring the fox as he breaks cover or the cock pheasnat as he climbs into the sky, your young dog retrieving your dinner straight back yo you. these are the things hunters enjoy.

Vegeta

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Just to be clear, I am not calling all meat eaters bad people. Humans have eaten meat for a long time and will do for a long time. If I had my way we'd all be veggie for many reasons. I do however have more respect for someone who kills the animal themselves for food and can appreciate that the food they are eating is actually a dead animal rather than something that comes wrapped in plastic from Tesco's. These people who could not bear to see an animal being killed without bursting into tears but have no problem tucking into their steak annoy me. I am talking about killing for entertainment and sport which I believe a lot of hunters do. After all this thread is under Sport->Shooting.

Well then you believe wrong. I don't personally know anyone who kills for entertainment. I know I hunt for entertainment, if I don't kill anything I am still entertained by just being out in the countryside with friends. I would definitely admit a minority go out to kill something (usually anything they can see) just for entertainment but there's a certain % of scum in every walk of life.

If the Vegetarian/Vegan forum was under High Horse -> We are Great, does that mean that you all avoid meat to appear morally superior, of course not. Hardly fair of you to make the same accusations of us.

Also a lot of forms of shooting are a Sport, quite a few of them in the Olympics. Completely separate from hunting and "sporting"

Millions upon millions of healthy vegetarians worldwide would tend to disagree.

I never mentioned their health, if they eat multiple types of protein they will get a full amino acid profile but animal proteins contain the whole lot in one source. (AFAIK, recalling from memory)

I am uncomfortable with thought of the suffering and death an animal would have went through in order to put my Big Mac on my plate.

So is it just meat you avoid or every animal product. Where do you live, did you relocate all the animals from the site before the house/apartment was built. Own any leather shoes, belts. Fair enough you don't eat meat but I bet your lifestyle contributes to animal suffering. Just how many insects and ground birds are killed in the production of your food?

There are many instances where people kill for entertainment. From badger baiting, foxhunting, bullfights to name a few so why am I dim because I say people enjoy killing? They probably enjoy the thrill of the chase too which is probably why they don't just kill rats/crows.

So only one of the things in the list above comes close to the remit of this forum, badger baiting is down right illegal and has nothing to do with hunting or shooting, neither does bullfighting.

Fox hunting. If you are talking about on horse back, the equestrian forum is over there (personally have nothing against hunts of this nature, same as using a bird of prey at airports and terriers for rats, just never been on one, don't like horses ya see). If you are talking about with a firearm then yes that's us.

And I'm bowing out as I know I will not convince you on the merits of hunting and you will not convince me that its wrong. I respect your opinion TBL but I disagree.

bullets

OK I've a novel of a post below thats nearly getting longer
than a Lord of the Rings chapter.....call it ramblings of a mad-man.

I love Shooting, I love guns, I love my meat, I cant stand vegetables in my diet.
But.....I also dont hunt, and dislike Hunting for sport.

(Note: I dislike Hunting but I'm not some mad anti hunting fanatic
and I have friends and family that do hunt or used to)

Nobody I know has a problem with me shooting or owning guns, apart
from one guy that used to work in the same place as me who said
if he had his way he would deprive be of the privilege/pleasure of ever owning one.
(Not his exact words as I cant remember but it went something like that)

I'm another Non-Hunter Gunowner. I get my shooting pleasure buy shooting
at stuff that is not Living or was not living. Clays/Paper targerts etc. etc.
I'm also an animal lover but not the tree-hugging living in the clouds hippy kind
that you see protesting outside the likes of circus's/hunts etc.

I get more of a weird reaction from a lot of shooters at my local range
rather than friends when it comes to shooting. Anytime I get into conversation
with people at my club all they talk about is how good certain rounds are for
killing stuff and they cant get their head around the fact I dont want to kill anything!!
Its like a foreign concept to a lot of them.

Next bit of my post are my own personal views on things regarding
Animals/Hunting/anti hunting. I'm not trying to start and argument
but more so posting what I think. My opinions may be flawed right or wrong
that will be due to my lack of knowledge on both sides of the fence pro/anti
hunting & meat eating/veggie

I think that some Hunter's are absolutely bonkers but also some of the
anti-hunting vegetarians are equally bonkers.

Some (not all) Hunters I think use very shallow excuses to hunt and kill things,
They say they are all about vermin control, conservation etc but I dont believe
this to by true for "some" of them at all. I think they just love to shoot and dont give
a damn that they are taking the life of an animal for no other reason than its fun for them.

Bunnies are generally shot by shooters as they are vermin yes??
I've read where shooters complain they cant find rabbits to shoot
and want to re-introduce them into a patch of land!!!! That to me is
shooting rabbits for pleasure and not conservation or vermin control.
(Then again some people that do this will admit they shoot bunnies for fun)

Foxes are shot cause they are vermin, but people will go out lamping on Land
that is not their own helping the landowner, or may go Lamping for fun when
fox's may not be causing a direct threat to a particular farmer or am I totally wrong and there is always a farmer in dire jeopardy.
I've heard there are some farmers that actually welcome
foxes on their land as the foxes themselves keep the smaller vermin numbers down.

The whole Grey Squirrel driving out the Red Squirrel where Hunters would have no
issues shooting grey squirrels with the excuse that the Poor little Red Squirrel
is nearly to the point of extinction. Would they hesitate in a heart beat to go killing
red ones if it was the grey's in danger....mmmm I think not.
Less about being concerned about the trail of devastation the grey had caused
by nibbling at the bark of young trees and more about getting to shoot more stuff is
what I think.

I Have no problem with people that go out and Shoot to eat, When you look at what
goes on in commercial meat processing for the general population its horrific.
Someone that hunts to eat, is killing an animal that is free and has lived a cruel free life.
I can respect that. If the person gets enjoyment for a job well done and making a clean kill
then it does not make them evil or bad.

People that need to hunt and kill vermin or do some culling and heard control
also have no issues with that either. There is a requirement to do this.

Foxhunting etc I think is a more way of life thing I dont like the idea of it,
but I'm not going to run out and try and sabotage hunts and start pouring sugar
down peoples fuel tanks like I hear has been done by anti-hunting animal lovers.
For people who do this I think this is a way of life and is in the blood and upbringing
and something that city slickers cannot understand (myself included).

Trophy Hunting and Hunting where someone pays to hunt big game in a different
country I cant get my head around yet. Its once of those things I just dont get.
I think it was Grizzly 45 that explained it with something along the lines of
saying it was like trying to explain what its like to see to a blind person.

I'll also find the some hunters respect and understand nature more than other people.
Some people that are anti-hunting are what I like to call "blind animal lovers"
They see hunting as bad/wrong full stop without caring that its a way of life
for some people, its in our culture, it sometimes needs to be done etc.

I have a dislike for some Animal Lovers who are blinded by anti-cruelty morals
or what they think is Cruel or what they think is right.

You have people that will Protest outside McDonalds, Brown Thomas, At Horse races,
they tend to come across as mild Lunatics to me, they spend more time whinging and
complaining and protesting when they could be out helping their local animal charities
instead.

Whaling, seal bashing etc this to me is Horrific and cruel but I have to stop
and think to myself that the people that do this, it may be their only source of income,
their way of life, their Family's may depend on them having that job, they may not
necessarily be bad or cruel people they may have not much of a choice of career.

There are things done to animals that most of us take for granted and
we dont see as cruel to them that are more socially accepted.

You have people that Keep Pets in Cages like Hamsters/Rabbits/Birds
That to me sounds cruel. The animals are bred to be pets destined to be caged
Yet some anti-shooting-hunting people dont see a problem with buying their
Kids or themselves pets like this.

You have the Pedigree Dog Breeders who have bred animals to the point
were they have driven out most of the original dog's characteristics and created
breeds of dogs born with health issues, Where Extra folds of fat are a bonus when
it comes to a breed but a dog is so obese it can even breath. Dogs that cant give birth
without human intervention, gum, teeth, eye issues, Dalmatians being killed if they dont have spots, tail docking and ear clipping.

I find myself asking who is more cruel.
The people who shoot and kills animals for their dinner/vermin control
or
The people who breeds animals for a living causing deformities and health issues
just to get something cute and fluffy.


~B

Sparks

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

I'd recommend you read up on the concept of the moral zeitgeist which was introduced by Dawkins in The God Delusion. Basically it talks about the fact that human morality progresses and that moral acceptability is driven by consensus. Except for a few mistakes in history such as the Holocaust, this is a good thing and has lead to abolishment of slavery, votes for women etc. Things which in the past were totally acceptable.

You're incorrect. Public consensus was so against the abolition of slavery that it caused (in part) at least one civil war; and universal sufferage didn't come into at least one european country (switzerland) until the 1970s. Up until very recently, the most liberal EU country around (sweden) was merrily practising eugenics by sterilising those swedes the state judged to be mentally deficient.

The lesson here is that "public consensus" does not choose new moral standards, or even evolve old ones; it simply reflects which preexisting moral standards are more popular. And that's all that determines the consensus - popularity. It has nothing to do with ethics or morals or religious beliefs or anything else. Get a large enough influx of new people into a population and you'll always see a shift in that public consensus; and it'll change in response to other things as well. For example, in 1950 it was a major social taboo to have a child out of wedlock in this country; today just over half the children born in any one year are born out of wedlock, and it's become perfectly acceptable in most of the population. That's an example of economic pressures changing the public consensus on ethics - and if money's all it takes to do that, then you don't have ethics, you have amoral pragmatism. Relying on public consensus to decide your morality is basicly an unethical thing to do.

Tell that to the thousands of people around the world serving life for murder.

There are far more people dead from state-sanctioned violence than there are people dead from non-state-sanctioned violence, and that trend has not shown any trend towards changing in the last century.

patrickdt10

tiny-nioclas wrote: »

Most people find it a bit odd that i hunt and shoot, one half of them is the "oh my god you slaughter lovely animals" type yet they eat plenty of processed shi*e meat, the other half think i will probably end up busting into a chapel or school with my rifle and a suicide belt and kill everyone, just because i shoot and own guns!! lets face it its more of a taboo to own a gun or hunt for food here than ever before, its this hollywood/celebrity/vegan bullsh*t that people are fed from the tv, dont get me started on what the women in my life think of it, theres no talking to them about conservation/herd/vermin/population control.........

The way i see it is were all animals at the peak of our evolution at the end of the day,most people like to think were not,but we are!

at the peak?? we as evolving creatures have more or less stopped evolving, due to the lifestyles that everyone lives. it is not the survival of the fittest any more in our world.

Sparks

patrickdt10 wrote: »

at the peak?? we as evolving creatures have more or less stopped evolving, due to the lifestyles that everyone lives. it is not the survival of the fittest any more in our world.

Tell that to the tetrachromats...

cavan shooter

patrickdt10 wrote: »

at the peak?? we as evolving creatures have more or less stopped evolving, due to the lifestyles that everyone lives. it is not the survival of the fittest any more in our world.

Yes, true survival of the fittest has changed over the millenia but survival of the fittest is still their in our competitive streak, buisness etc. Not for this section of boards but we still are animals but we work and live in a different type of jungle

macnab

TBL, I find your fanatical and pushy vegetarian ethics jaded and boring, by your own standards you should not even be a vegetarian as the majority of people are not, and in your own words "society at large decides what is right and what is wrong". We are omnivores due to evolution plain and simple, how people choose to provide their food is a personal choice as long as its legal. If you have chosen vegetarianism because of an ethical stand point then I feel you are mistaken, unless every vegetarian grows their own food I can guarantee that some poor unfortunate 3rd world dweller is suffering to get your vegetables to your table. You say "If I had my way we'd all be veggie" why? would it produce a master race??

Climb down off that high horse, learn to live and let live. The world would be a very boring place if we all ate and liked the exact same things.

murph226

yawn, what was the topic again?