Opinions wanted for a tough choice...

SV

whiterebel wrote: »

and for suggestions such as the Alfa. Just a long time looking at the Italians cars going wrong, breaking owner hearts etc. I couldn't do that to myself. Same reason I couldn't hand over 30K for a Citroen C5.......

Older cars..things are changing lately, I wouldn't read into it much..

with your kind of money to be spending I'd probably buy the BMW though, not going to bother mentioning anything else as you don't wanna hear about it :P

Anan1

Zube wrote: »

I think it was pretty clear: Hammertime thinks that if you are buying a premium car like a BMW, you should buy a real one, not the weediest 4 cylinder diesel. If you're all about service costs, mpg and low tax, why are you buying a premium car? Why not buy a Mondeo and pocket 5K?

I went through this process a couple of years ago when looking for a car for my mother. Drove everything in or around the price bracket, ended up with a well-optioned 320d. She could have bought a 335i for the same money, but it wouldn't have answered her requirements as well. She could have saved some money and bought a full-spec Mondeo, but that wouldn't have either. A 318d may not suit you, and it wouldn't suit me either. But the car isn't for us, is it?

whiterebel

Biro wrote: »

Audi's suffer just as much as VW for reliability issues.

Thats the sort of thing I was looking for. Any specifics? As I posted on a different thread, I hated going to my local mechanic because he used to finish my sentences.....

"Turbo has packed in....." "No its your air flow meter, lucky we can gets spurious now, €135 to fix rather than €350+" - 5 minute job
"Sloshing sound under the windscreen" "Bulkhead blocks up, lucky if you don't short out your electrics which are on the passsenger side"
"Coming up for its timing belt" " Just leave the keys to your house, and your first born....."
Wiper motor packed in.
Can't do an oil change yourself, apparently.
One of the pipes connecting the turbo to the engine "can go" as well. A BMW mechanic nearly lost the will to live with that one.......

Biro

whiterebel wrote: »

Just a long time looking at the Italians cars going wrong, breaking owner hearts etc. I couldn't do that to myself...

Alfa's are built correctly these days, and the diesel engines are excellent.
Put it this way - you're afraid of buying Italian because of problems, so you're buying German - which caused you heartache in your last car you've owned! A 08 Alfa 159 has the same chance of being reliable than a 08 A4!

whiterebel

ClioV6 wrote: »

Older cars..things are changing lately, I wouldn't read into it much..

with your kind of money to be spending I'd probably buy the BMW though, not going to bother mentioning anything else as you don't wanna hear about it :P

Oh, sod off!!:p

Between us, we won't have Mondeo, Laguna, Vectra, Primera, Alfa, Volvo. Don't like anything in the Kia, Hyundai, Toyota line up.

As said, BMW have blotted their copybook with the problems a few years ago with their TDs. Audi must surely have problems too? What car in the UK seems to say Saab are pretty reliable if not pretty. The Lexus feels nice, and looks nice and they do seem to be able to build cars prroperly.

Biro

whiterebel wrote: »

Thats the sort of thing I was looking for. Any specifics? As I posted on a different thread, I hated going to my local mechanic because he used to finish my sentences.....

"Turbo has packed in....." "No its your air flow meter, lucky we can gets spurious now, €135 to fix rather than €350+" - 5 minute job
"Sloshing sound under the windscreen" "Bulkhead blocks up, lucky if you don't short out your electrics which are on the passsenger side"
"Coming up for its timing belt" " Just leave the keys to your house, and your first born....."
Wiper motor packed in.
Can't do an oil change yourself, apparently.
One of the pipes connecting the turbo to the engine "can go" as well. A BMW mechanic nearly lost the will to live with that one.......

Is that with the Passat or a BMW?
Audi's shared electrical issues with VW's for a few years, but seem to be better now, (note - seem!). Front suspension issues that seem to be a secret (maybe denied by owners) also should be in the past. The 2 litre TDi's sometimes have an appetite for intercoolers, not cheap once out of warranty. (also the unusual oil consumption that they all have, funny how the same owners criticise the RX8 for that same issue - thing is it's intended in the RX8, not intended in the VAG diesel!).
I haven't heard of any known issues with the new 159 though. Lexus seems to be tough too! I think the newer BMW's are fairly reliable, the turbo issues etc seem to be confined to the old 150bhp motor and before. I've heard of a few disappointed Saab owners from a build quality point of view, but nothing specific. From my own experience on that though, go for the higher up specs if getting one, the base ones are not only bland, but exceptionally poorly built.

Biro

whiterebel wrote: »

Oh, sod off!!:p

Between us, we won't have Mondeo, Laguna, Vectra, Primera, Alfa, Volvo. Don't like anything in the Kia, Hyundai, Toyota line up.

As said, BMW have blotted their copybook with the problems a few years ago with their TDs. Audi must surely have problems too? What car in the UK seems to say Saab are pretty reliable if not pretty. The Lexus feels nice, and looks nice and they do seem to be able to build cars prroperly.

Looks like your decision is made then, Lexus it is.

whiterebel

Biro wrote: »

Alfa's are built correctly these days, and the diesel engines are excellent.
Put it this way - you're afraid of buying Italian because of problems, so you're buying German - which caused you heartache in your last car you've owned! A 08 Alfa 159 has the same chance of being reliable than a 08 A4!

My preference is Lexus, I think, deep down, I'm really looking for an excuse not to go German.

And I know its unfair, but its just history counting against the Italians. I started into cars in around the 131 Mirafiori time, and that was some car. Finish, extras, power, exhaust noise.......what a car! Wouldn't get you to the end of the driveway with any great regularity though. I know its a long tme ago, but it only seems to be in the last few years that they seem to be offering long warranties etc which shows they do believe in their cars and are building them properly. I think my left hand would saw off my right before I could hand over that sort of wedge for one though. I alays said I'd have a 156/159 in the morning, if someone else was paying for it, i.e company car.

whiterebel

Biro wrote: »

Is that with the Passat or a BMW?
Audi's shared electrical issues with VW's for a few years, but seem to be better now, (note - seem!). Front suspension issues that seem to be a secret (maybe denied by owners) also should be in the past. The 2 litre TDi's sometimes have an appetite for intercoolers, not cheap once out of warranty. (also the unusual oil consumption that they all have, funny how the same owners criticise the RX8 for that same issue - thing is it's intended in the RX8, not intended in the VAG diesel!).
I haven't heard of any known issues with the new 159 though. Lexus seems to be tough too! I think the newer BMW's are fairly reliable, the turbo issues etc seem to be confined to the old 150bhp motor and before. I've heard of a few disappointed Saab owners from a build quality point of view, but nothing specific. From my own experience on that though, go for the higher up specs if getting one, the base ones are not only bland, but exceptionally poorly built.

Passat 1.9 TDi, 99 model. Never had the reputed thirst for oil, strangely enough. Front suspension - had forgotten that. Fixed under a recall, which was fair enough.

G_H

how about one of these http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Chrysler/Sebring/Limited-Spec/919376/ not many around and with the money you saved you can go on a nice holiday and still have money left over

Lumen

whiterebel wrote: »

My preference is Lexus, I think, deep down, I'm really looking for an excuse not to go German.

A smart decision (although I'm not sure you'll appreciate me agreeing with you at this stage!). Whilst it's possibly unfair to tar all German manufacturers with the same brush, I have heard countless stories of electrical problems with recent BMW and VAG products, but very few with Lexus.

A BMW servicing engineer confided to me in about 2003 that he'd lost count of nearly new cars arriving at his workshop on the back of a flat bed, rendered immobile by electrical gremlins.

My Mini Cooper S was also a POS build-quality wise, although that's a bit of a special case.

kluivert

For deperciation - choose the BMW, but the 320d, if you can go for that.

2nd - Audi A4

3rd - Lexus

4th - Saab.

For looks - choose the Audi A4, I think its a nicer looking car.

2nd - Lexus

3rd - BMW

4th - Saab.

For reliability - choose the BMW.

The rest are very reliabile.

If I had to choose I would choose the Audi A4. I have to say that your paying a big premium for a BMW badge.

The 4 cyl diesel BMW engines are sourced from Toyota manufacturing partner.

Well the Mini diesel engines are anyway.

Toyota sourced engines are very good.

Get the Audi A4 2.0TDI with the new common rail engine.

superjosh9

Wow, the people on this thread really do suck. I've just read through it. A lot of pedantic weiners. Some of you I have to assume are 14? 6 cylinders instead of 4? Back to the car-mags...

OP, nice to see you living in the real world as opposed to some people here. You're dead right to be buying the small-exec size cars out of the so-called prestige marques as these obviously hold their value the best. As too are you right to go for the base engines/trims as you get NOTHING back in resale for the *€ thousands* you can spend on optional equipment - but I think you know all of this anyway. So, in this climate especially, you're quite right.

And note to others, why are you jumping on his back because he wants an Audi/BMW/Lexus/Saab, and then saying that because they're base models, they're not *real* or whatever..? Sigh. And that was a rhetorical question.

Anyway. Of those cars, I've only driven the Saab. It's steering is quite light, it has a surprisingly good turning circle even with larger wheels, it rides well enough. Basically, it's a very easy car to drive and throw around a bit - but it's not a sports car by any means. But again, I don't know how important that is. It's FWD for a start, where's I prefer RWD, but in everyday situations, this is a small point. The new dashboard is a lot nicer than I was expecting, the vertical face in the photos looks cheap but when you see it in real life - it's really not that bad. The seats are excellent, but the back seats are very low and have very poor visibility out front. Finally, the engine is fine - as good as any other diesel.

I have not driven or even sat in the Lexus/A4. I would find it very satisfying to pay only €150-300 tax, so that would rule out the Lexus for me, but then, I can't stand the looks of the Lexus. As for the A4, it looks very nice, and the interior shots look nice too, and indeed it looks like a big enough car. Personally, I find BMWs to be tiresome - often even because of the hard seats. I drive Volvos/Saabs and on a daily basis, I find them easier to live with. Having said that, the price of the BMW and it's running costs are excellent - though I do not trust the BMW reliability as I've had a few incidents over the years - but they were petrol 4s/6s head-gaskets etc. - I know nothing about the new diesels.

So anyway, as said, drive all 4 and see what suits your needs the best.

superjosh9

whiterebel wrote: »

...I'm really looking for an excuse not to go German.
I alays said I'd have a 156/159 in the morning, if someone else was paying for it, i.e company car.

I'm the same. I love the look of the 159 SW, and even though it was developed mainly by Saab during the Fiat/GM thing, I couldnt do it. It's too much money to risk.

I still look back at my old alfetta days and smile.

Not a fan of German cars either. I drive Volvo mainly due to the 740 which was excellent, especially when it was launched back 84 or so, really raised the bar - even compared to the German things at the time. Have a 940 bought new in 98 and a newer S40, which is just, well, it's a car.

bazz26

G_H wrote: »

how about one of these http://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/Chrysler/Sebring/Limited-Spec/919376/ not many around and with the money you saved you can go on a nice holiday and still have money left over

Good God that interior is just horrible. And forget about trying to trade it afterwards.

Lumen

superjosh9 wrote: »

You're dead right to be buying the small-exec size cars out of the so-called prestige marques as these obviously hold their value the best.

It depends on whether you count depreciation as relative to list, relative to optioned price, or absolute compared to other cars of similar design. It also depends on whether you're trading it in at a dealer or selling privately (most BMWs in Ireland seem to be resold through dealers for whatever reason).

Car magazines quote resale as a % of list, which is only useful if you don't go mad with the options.

The last German car I bought was about €28k list, but about €42k with options (yes, I went mad with options, but not unusually so). I sold it to a dealer for €23k at two years old, which is 82% of list but only 55% of full retail price.

Additionally, non-premium brands often come with dealer discounts, which offsets the loss but is not represented in "official" depreciation figures.

Of course, you can buy a premium car with no options, if you have sufficient willpower. But where's the fun in that?

That said, nothing loses value faster than a "premium model from a non-premium brand". Renault Vel Satis anyone?

cashmni1

Personally I would choose the Lexus.
VAG products are flawed but not as bad as some would have you believe.
The big point in favour of the Lexus would be motorway crusing. The car is bigger than the BMW and I just thinnk that the car would be more relaxed @ motorway cruising speeds. However, you need to drive both cars yourself and make the comparison.
The (older) A4's were no great shakes on the road either. I don't know how the new ones fare out now. Again, a test drive.
Saab would be the best looking, and rare-ish, but thats about it. The BMW and Lexus would hammer it in every other department.
Whatever you get, there are no real lemons in the 4 cars you picked.

joeperry

Hey OP,

Have you thought about the new C class merc, im a BMW fan but the new C class looks really nice.As its a newly released model it should hold its value better as it probably wont be replaced for at least another 6 or 7 years.

Biro

joeperry wrote: »

Hey OP,

Have you thought about the new C class merc, im a BMW fan but the new C class looks really nice.As its a newly released model it should hold its value better as it probably wont be replaced for at least another 6 or 7 years.

Actually, that's a good suggestion. Merc build quality is back on track at last, after a long absence, and the new C-Class is back to the level where Merc's should be. And I think it looks good too!

whiterebel

Thanks again for your contributions. Merc C class may be worth having a look at although, at first glance she doesn't have the same spec as the others, for the same money. Maybe bringing it to BMW money might even it up. TBH, never a fan of Mercs anyway.

To G_H about the Sebring: I drove a Chrysler (PT Cruiser) for 3 weeks in the US, and the build is shocking. The body panels are back to the bad old days of Mazda and Honda. The Sebring was popular in Florida, doesn't look much in Saloon, but Cabriolet is stunning. Less chance of buying one, than buying Italian.........

joeperry

^^ Yeah i was quite surprised nobody had mentioned it, just shows you Merc aren't doing a great job marketing their cars and dont have many passionate owners crowing how great they are.

whiterebel

Talking to a mate who has his own tyre business today. Run flats on the BMWs go for €280-300 each, don't last p!ssing time, and if you do get a flat and drive on them, you are supposed to dump it and get a new one. Ride is supposed to be fairly harsh on them too. He suggests leave them in it, and change over as they wear out. It does mean having to buy a space-saver.

stesaurus

whiterebel wrote: »

Thanks again for your contributions. Merc C class may be worth having a look at although, at first glance she doesn't have the same spec as the others, for the same money. Maybe bringing it to BMW money might even it up. TBH, never a fan of Mercs anyway.

To G_H about the Sebring: I drove a Chrysler (PT Cruiser) for 3 weeks in the US, and the build is shocking. The body panels are back to the bad old days of Mazda and Honda. The Sebring was popular in Florida, doesn't look much in Saloon, but Cabriolet is stunning. Less chance of buying one, than buying Italian.........

A PT cruiser!!!! Haha I always wondered who rented those:D
I had a Sebring cabriolet while in Florida and it was shocking. Slow cheap and nasty looking. It's American so terrible handling is a given!

Anyway if I was you I would go for a low mileage 08 3 series from the UK. You'll get it onto the new tax rates and will save a packet in the process. Maybe even plump for a 320 or 325 for the extra refinement. Also you get 3 years warranty with a UK BMW as standard.

Also if it was me I would go for the Coupe as I'm not crazy on the current saloon styling. But I don't think that suits your needs by the sound of things.

whiterebel

s.welstead wrote: »

A PT cruiser!!!! Haha I always wondered who rented those:D
I had a Sebring cabriolet while in Florida and it was shocking. Slow cheap and nasty looking. It's American so terrible handling is a given!

Anyway if I was you I would go for a low mileage 08 3 series from the UK. You'll get it onto the new tax rates and will save a packet in the process. Maybe even plump for a 320 or 325 for the extra refinement. Also you get 3 years warranty with a UK BMW as standard.

Also if it was me I would go for the Coupe as I'm not crazy on the current saloon styling. But I don't think that suits your needs by the sound of things.

No, no....I didn't ask for the Cruiser, I had a Mazda 6 booked. I did think the Sebring was a good looking car as a Cabriolet though.

R.O.R

OP - sorry I missed this one from the begining.

From your 4 choices I'd go for the A4, but only if your left foot doesn't catch the foot rest everytime you use the clutch, and if you specify the Colour DIS (about €156). The colour screen in the centre of the dash makes a big difference to the interior.

If you are going for a 3 series, I'd go for an SE Edition model. We had a facelifted 3 Series here a couple of weeks ago and the difference isn't immediately obvious. The Edition model has such a good spec that it's worth going for over the newer model.

Spec on the Saab 9-3 Linear Sport is comparable to the 3 Series Edition model. Had a Sportwagon version in black with black leather interior and the ALU 59 wheels here last week. Looked very good, but the feedback on Saab's from our technical people is less than complimentary.

I love the look of the IS220d, but in Base Spec the interior looks far too much like that of an Avensis for me to spend €36k +

loc5

the audi if your hanging on to it as long as the last(you said 6yrs)then youll have a larger network of garages to service it. and it shares some parts with other vag stuff so no sudden "aw theyve stoped makin them parts all you can get is XXX(****e) from such a supplyer (that never supplys them after waiting 6 weeks) this may seem daft now but just wait.....

lexus: these are serious yokes and dead reliable but your humped if they do give bother

outsiders:
the vw pheaton is supposed to be ok but they re not selling well due to brand snobery have a look

honda legend: proberbly the best nearly new bargin as they are crucified by depreciation in the first 1-2 years youll have warrenty and few quid left over:D

best of luck with whichever you buy:)

whiterebel

R.O.R wrote: »

OP - sorry I missed this one from the begining.

From your 4 choices I'd go for the A4, but only if your left foot doesn't catch the foot rest everytime you use the clutch,Exactly the same on the Passat, drives me mad) and if you specify the Colour DIS (about €156). The colour screen in the centre of the dash makes a big difference to the interior.

If you are going for a 3 series, I'd go for an SE Edition model. We had a facelifted 3 Series here a couple of weeks ago and the difference isn't immediately obvious. The Edition model has such a good spec that it's worth going for over the newer model.I could see very little between the 08 Edition and the 09.

Spec on the Saab 9-3 Linear Sport is comparable to the 3 Series Edition model. Had a Sportwagon version in black with black leather interior and the ALU 59 wheels here last week. Looked very good, but the feedback on Saab's from our technical people is less than complimentary.Thats what i'm afraid of.

I love the look of the IS220d, but in Base Spec the interior looks far too much like that of an Avensis for me to spend €36k +

Thankfully haven't driven an Avensis. Inside looks very nice to me, TBH.


lexus: these are serious yokes and dead reliable but your humped if they do give botherWon't they all?:D

outsiders:
the vw pheaton is supposed to be ok but they re not selling well due to brand snobery have a look Is that the big W12 monster? Not that I would get a VW again anyway.

galwaytt

cashmni1 wrote: »

Saab would be the best looking,........ The BMW and Lexus would hammer it in every other department.

'fraid I can't agree with that. Currently have an 06 9-3 1.9 Tid, and have previously have had 320d Touring and 525dTouring.

The 320d, whilst a fabulous, fabulous engine, was incredibly plain inside. The interior (cloth) had, tbh, no redeeming features whatsoever. It also required a couple of big-bill repairs which didn't go down well.....ECU, etc..... They really are incredibly mean, spec-wise. The 525d, although an older generation engine, was actually a much better car. It was a UK import for a start, so had a good spec. Too big for town is why that was sold.

In march this year we went shopping again, and drove an RX300. Nice, I'll grant you, but it certainly didn't feel like a luxury car. I though the leather.........I dunno, plasticky (technical term :rolleyes: ), and whilst quiet, etc.....not exactly........involving. Didn't find it particularly torquey, either.

On a complete whim, we took out a 9-3, just for the sake of it.........and was completely smitten. 150bhp, torquey as hell, quick, hi spec (Vector Sport). Now, that doesn't make it necessarily better car than, say, a 320d, but, at the prices that 320d's go for, the Saab is a bargain. Irrespective of model. I don't know why this is - they seem to have a higher spec, and lower price than German stuff. Ditto for Volvo.

All, as they say, my 0.02.........

whiterebel

galwaytt wrote: »

'fraid I can't agree with that. Currently have an 06 9-3 1.9 Tid, and have previously have had 320d Touring and 525dTouring.

The 320d, whilst a fabulous, fabulous engine, was incredibly plain inside. The interior (cloth) had, tbh, no redeeming features whatsoever. It also required a couple of big-bill repairs which didn't go down well.....ECU, etc..... They really are incredibly mean, spec-wise. The 525d, although an older generation engine, was actually a much better car. It was a UK import for a start, so had a good spec. Too big for town is why that was sold.

In march this year we went shopping again, and drove an RX300. Nice, I'll grant you, but it certainly didn't feel like a luxury car. I though the leather.........I dunno, plasticky (technical term :rolleyes: ), and whilst quiet, etc.....not exactly........involving. Didn't find it particularly torquey, either.

On a complete whim, we took out a 9-3, just for the sake of it.........and was completely smitten. 150bhp, torquey as hell, quick, hi spec (Vector Sport). Now, that doesn't make it necessarily better car than, say, a 320d, but, at the prices that 320d's go for, the Saab is a bargain. Irrespective of model. I don't know why this is - they seem to have a higher spec, and lower price than German stuff. Ditto for Volvo.

All, as they say, my 0.02.........

Thanks for your 2c.....Any great hassels with the Saab, and did you get it from new? Same for 320D was it new/ish or did it have a couple of years on it?

whiterebel

Ok, update for anyone interested.

Lexus - Too small in back and boot. Magnificent to drive but impractical with 2 growing boys.

Saab - Could only drive an auto 9-3 TDi, but the dashboard is very plastic looking and doesn't have anything like the quality dash in the others. Dealer didn't seem to be giving an great favours away to sell an 09 either.

BMW - No SE Edition models left, you can't add Cruise/climate to the ES models, so you're into an 09 which goes to approx €46K which is out of our league. kearys in Cork have a shedload of 08 demo's that he says they will price to sell, will get a price on Monday for Half-leather, cruise, climate etc.

Audi A4 2.0 TDi SE. What a car. Just stunning inside and out. Blackwater motors will do a 3rd year warranty for €300, servicing approx 30k (Doesn't even need an oil change before that, just a top up they say) Service cost €195!!!!! Wife loves it, I was very very impressed with it. Ticks all the boxes.
Giving 1500 against the Passat brings it to €37,500 including leather.
Offered to let me drive demo to Dublin, as did Kearys with the 318D.
Looks like the Audi, though.