Door to door Eircom PhoneWatch offer

atlantean

Earlier this evening a door to door sales person called to our house offering PhoneWatch for €1300 for 3 years. This was for installation monitoring and maintenance for the 3 years and worked out at about €10 a week.

Having not done any homework into monitored alarms I have no clue as to if this is good value or not - €10 a week does not sound too bad I suppose.

How does PhoneWatch compare price wise to other alarm companies on the market?

KoolKid

The €10 a week is where they are making it all back. That price is way over the top for domistec monitoring & a service contract . €300- €360 max.You will also find their service contact limits you to only a couple of calls a year

fishdog

The €10 a week is where they are making it all back

I would agree

That price is way over the top for domistec monitoring & a service contract .

100% correct!

They will also be trying to sell you a system at that price that is missing some inportant items such as a working external bell box. This means that the level of protection you will get will be below that of most other systems.

Eircom will install this for you for an additional fee, but most alarm contractors would install this as standard, not an extra!

They are the most popular alarm company in the country due to clever marketing, not through providing the best service or value!

atlantean

fishdog wrote: »

I
They are the most popular alarm company in the country due to clever marketing, not through providing the best service or value!

This is what I was thinking myself!

I won't be taking them up on their offer - might look elsewhere!

Thanks for the heads up lads!

jamesbond

atlantean wrote: »

This is what I was thinking myself!

I won't be taking them up on their offer - might look elsewhere!

Thanks for the heads up lads!

what area do you line in,there are dealers out and about the country who sell and install phonewatch systems to suit the client so what ever you want they can provide at a competitave rate so you pay the guy and pay phonewatch the monitoring fee montly or yearly

KoolKid

Remember any licenced installer can install a monitored security system so its well worth your while shopping around.

northdublin

jamesbond wrote: »

what area do you line in,there are dealers out and about the country who sell and install phonewatch systems to suit the client so what ever you want they can provide at a competitave rate so you pay the guy and pay phonewatch the monitoring fee montly or yearly

i would agree with this the best way to get an eircom alarm is trough one of their agents which are listed on the website. the ppl who called to the op's door are more then likely from a company called cobra who sell eircoms systems door to door. in my experience they have little or no installation experience and are there to try sell you an alarm and will answer your questions with the answers you want to hear.
also the alarm they sell for eircom is very basic and is made up of 3 contacts and 3 pirs and a decoy box, and at the moment i think there including a key fob for remote arming/disarming

fishdog

in my experience they have little or no installation experience and are there to try sell you an alarm and will answer your questions with the answers you want to hear.

+ 1
They came to my door too! I put them under pressure and they gave up quickly!! They did not seem to understand the system very well although they claimed to be "technicians".

the alarm they sell for eircom is very basic

Very basic is correct!

northdublin

heres a quick apoximate breakdown of the price of their equipment. i feel its ok to post this due to the fact they would give you this info over the phone, net or in a printed form.
for instance the system offered to the op
alarm panel.................approx 560 euro
3 pir sensors...............approx 80 euro each
3 contacts.................approx 70 euro each
1 decoy belbox............approx 50 euro
1 remote keyfob..........approx 60 euro, but some soecial offers have this as free.
the prices are similar to that you would be speced if you rang phonewatch directly
add up the above and deduct from the price quoted would give an approx price on the monitoring which usually includes free servicing.
the wirefree stuff is exspensive but i have it in my own house and ive not had a problem yet. i think the equipment they use is excellent but there salesmanship needs some updating

spurious

It's eircom - it's not like we don't know what they are like for over-charging.

KoolKid

northdublin wrote: »

heres a quick apoximate breakdown of the price of their equipment. i feel its ok to post this due to the fact they would give you this info over the phone, net or in a printed form.
for instance the system offered to the op
alarm panel.................approx 560 euro
3 pir sensors...............approx 80 euro each
3 contacts.................approx 70 euro each
1 decoy belbox............approx 50 euro
1 remote keyfob..........approx 60 euro, but some soecial offers have this as free.
the prices are similar to that you would be speced if you rang phonewatch directly
add up the above and deduct from the price quoted would give an approx price on the monitoring which usually includes free servicing.
the wirefree stuff is exspensive but i have it in my own house and ive not had a problem yet. i think the equipment they use is excellent but there salesmanship needs some updating

Only 3 contacts??? Thats not even securing the perimiter of your property.. Total rip off. Like I said any licenced installer can set up monitoring for you. Shop around.

northdublin

yeah 3 contacts and 3 beams is pretty poor way of alarming a house. this is eircoms way of getting into ppls pockets for the monitoring fee. 1300 euro is a lot and a wired system could be fitted for that price and if the right installer was to do the job little or no wiring would be visable.
aesthetics are very important these days and for most ppl the thoughts of a wired system going into finished house is the stuff of nightmares so most spend insane ammounts on a wireless system.

KoolKid

Generally I would walk the property with a client & discuss all the cable runs. From there we could also mix & match so to speak, using wired where its tidy & wireless on the more difficult areas. Generally a systems can be designed to suit your property & your budget. If you want me to take a look at it for you PM me.

fishdog

yeah 3 contacts and 3 beams is pretty poor way of alarming a house

Exactly.
My concern is that:

1) It conforms to EN50131. This demonstartes how low the standard is.
2) They are PSA licensed alarm installers.
3) Installing a decoy bellbox rather than a real bellbox is a joke.

This is the way it is sold to the general public and the public will take this offer up in large numbers. PhoneWatch have more alarms than anyone else in Ireland.

KoolKid

fishdog wrote: »

Exactly.
My concern is that:

1) It conforms to EN50131. This demonstartes how low the standard is.
2) They are PSA licensed alarm installers.

Please explain??
There is no other type of alarm you can get installed
So by your logic all systems installed now are a low standard?
This is really getting a bit boring you bringing this into every thread.

kmick

I got the phone watch about 5 years ago. Cost about 400 to install and monitoring was 21 a month. I found the product was good. Included one free yearly service. No complaints overall. 1300 seems expensive though. Bear in mind thats a third party trying to sell you a product thats one of the more expensive in the market and adding their markup.

KoolKid

The €21 a month is very steep for just monitoring. Most companys would include a full service contract for around €25-€30

fishdog

Koolkid:

Please explain??

Sure.

Fishdog:

My concern is that:

1) It conforms to EN50131. This demonstartes how low the standard is.

As you said:

Koolkid:

Only 3 contacts??? Thats not even securing the perimiter of your property.. Total rip off

This clearly demonstartes that we both agree that this alarm is installed to a low standard yet we both agree that it conforms to EN50131.

Fishdog:

2) They are PSA licensed alarm installers.

These alarm systems are installed by PSA licensed installers yet as you said yourself:

Koolkid:

Thats not even securing the perimiter of your property..

Hmmmm. That does not inspire any confidence about the ability of some PSA installers. This shows that a PSA installer can in some cases install an alarm that does not provide proper security.

Fishdog:

3) Installing a decoy bellbox rather than a real bellbox is a joke.

A real bellbox peforms certain functions. It has an internal siren, stobe light, flashing LED (to show it is real) and its own internal battery. Unlike the internal siren it can generally be heard by people outside the house. A decoy is an empty plastic box that does not have these functions.


Koolkid:

So by your logic all systems installed now are a low standard?

By my logic meeting EN50131 is meanigless because it is such a low standard as you have shown you believe yourself (see your quote above). To have a good alarm system you need to install to a far higher standard.
I have demonstrated this to people by getting around their alarm systems in just a few minutes (all conforming to EN50131). It is not hard.

KoolKid

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
You really do have some issues.
Some one asks for advice & your response is I am concerned because the system comforms to EN50131 & the Company is a PSA licenced installer???
So whats your advice ? Find an illegal unlicenced installer?
The topic been discussed is with the Product Eircom was selling not with the PSA & the EN standards?
Please change the record & stop hijacking every thread with the same old moan.
At the end of the day it is the Law that a company has to be PSA licenced & certified by the NSAI(or equivlent). Giving people advice to the contary is helping no one.
Maybe as a solution to the recession you will be giving out advice on armed robbery next!!!

fishdog

I am concerned because the system comforms to EN50131 & the Company is a PSA licenced installer???

No.

The concerns are listed 1,2 and 3.
By your request each were expalined to you.

To clarify: My main concern is that the EN50131 standard that is being used is so low that it means nothing.

I think you are upset because I have clearly shown that your points (as illustrated above) agree with mine.

I dont understand were you think are views are different on those 3 points.

KoolKid

To put it bluntly fishdog. I dont know & I dont really care what your problem is.
I come on here to give professional free advice to the people here.
Regardless of the topic you keep harping on about how terrible the PSA is & how terrible EN50131 is.
Fine you think its nothing thats your opinion. But it is recognised troughout the industry, It is recognised by the Guards & it is recognised by the insurance companies. I'd say they are better qualified to assess the standards than you are.
Once again at the end of the day EN is a European standard & i doubt its going to change because you don't like it. Also PSA licencing is a legal requirement, I doubt that is going to change because you chose not to become licenced.
Myself Jnealon fredfunk & the other professional installers here are trying to help people out with free advice & recommendations. Why you feel the need to bring up the same thing in every thread is beyone me. The OP asked about Eircoms door to door offer, not about your obsession with the PSA. For you to give advice saying you are concerned because a company is licenced & installing systems to EN standards is absurd & shows a real lack of knowledge of the Industry at present. As you have stated you used to install, thats great,i,m sure you did a good job, but the industry has changed a lot in recent year. The Industry has been regulated & you choose not be be a part of it.
No point now trying to advice people against the legal licenced installers.
You just are not making any sense. Would you take advice from someone telling you not to use a licenced taxi or as you a big into the guns would you advise people not to use a licenced dealer???
For gods sake get over whatever is eating you re this & let us give professional advice to people without this same boring rant in every thread.

fishdog

The interesting thing is that all of your main points agree exactly with mine, but you try to discredit me because I am not in the PSA. The main points we disagree on are non technical! They seem to be the ones that will make installers more money (funny that).

The laws of physics and the basic working of alarm systems have remained relatively unchanged for some time now as has the techniques used to break into houses etc.

Qualifications, impartiality and experience are the key factors in giving advice and I have all three. Professionalism is best demonstrated by countering an argument with facts rather than emotional outbursts.

I am not taking your work and as I told you I give work to a local PSA installer all the time.

As it happens my first post on this thread was agreeing with you 100% (again!)

I am not going to argue around in circles with you and trade insults.

KoolKid

fishdog wrote: »

you try to discredit me because I am not in the PSA.

No true you discredit yourself giving advice that makes no sense.
You claim that the EN standard is too poor, yet it is reconised troughout Europe , recognised by the Guards & recognised by insurance companys , All experts in the field. But yet because you disagree with all these experts you feel the need to post this in every thread.

fishdog wrote: »

They seem to be the ones that will make installers more money (funny that).

Isn't that what every company is in business to do??
Maybe if you ever get yourself licenced you will realise that.

fishdog wrote: »

the basic working of alarm systems have remained relatively unchanged for some time now as has the techniques used to break into houses etc.

so we should still be using pressure mats & key switches?
If you rekon the techniques used to break into houses hasn't changed you are further behind the times than I thought.

fishdog wrote: »

I am not going to argue around in circles with you and trade insults.

Then kindly stop hijacking everyones threads with the same rant utill you can prove you are more qualified than all those who recognise the standards troughout Europe.

fishdog

You claim that the EN standard is too poor

...and so do you:

Only 3 contacts??? Thats not even securing the perimiter of your property.. Total rip off.

Because that system is certified to the EN standard.

Isn't that what every company is in business to do??

Exactly. This is where a buisness causes a conflict of interest with what may be the best advice.

so we should still be using pressure mats & key switches?

Pressure mats and key switches are often refered to as discreet inputs. They give the same input as a reed switch. They have 2 states, on and off. This is used in many different areas with alarm systems including the latest alarm systems. If you understand how this worked 20 years ago you will understand it now. The Ohm's law, resistors in series and parallel has not changed one bit.

If you rekon the techniques used to break into houses hasn't changed you are further behind the times than I thought.

Well I find I can get around plenty of certified alarms no problem! That has to say something about the standard.

KoolKid

Please read the ops question. I stated that the offer Eircom was making was insuffient. Part of EN is risk assesment, they are clearly not carrying this out.

Any engineer could get around most systems this does not mean the
Standards are weak.
But then again you know better than
The insurance companys,the industry in general and the police troughout Europe

fishdog

Part of EN is risk assesment, they are clearly not carrying this out.

Really?? But they still conform with the EN standard because as you said

There is no other type of alarm you can get installed

So as I said we agree on the standard is too low.

Any engineer could get around most systems this does not mean the
Standards are weak.

That is an admission and says it all! It does say the standards are weak.
Im not an engineer and I could teach a monkey how to get around many certified systems before they contact or alert anyone. We both know how easy that is. To conform to this standard they dont even need back up on the phone line!

I can assure you by the time anyone (even an engineer) gets around a well installed system help is on the way, even if it is a 10 year old system. The weakness in many systems is simply the way they are installed, some areas left unprotected and phone lines are not backed up etc..

But then again you know better than
The insurance companys,the industry in general and the police troughout Europe

Funny you should say that but I was asked to give a talk to some insurance assessors about the way alarms are installed because so many were being bypassed.

Most homes in Europe do not have alarms, so they do not attach much importance to it!

Are you really going to say that the EN standard is a high enough standard on its own??

BNC

Boring......Nothng to do with the OP's original question anymore :rolleyes:

northdublin

it boils down to this......phonewatch are providing a service which some may not agree with, it is however the responsibility of the homeowner to select and commission an intruder alarm and at the end of the day they make the final decision. this decision is usually influenced by three main factors, the input of the company hired to install, the cost of the system and the ammount of disruption to the premises while the install is takin place.
in relation to the system offered to the op some may think that this doesnt come close to a decent standard, but extras can be installed on the day by simply asking the installer or at a service callout additional units could be added on with virtually no disruption to the premises. i know this to be the case on many of these perticular installs due to the sales person not informing the customer of the pitfalls that may occur with such a system.

KoolKid

fishdog wrote: »

So as I said we agree on the standard is too low.

No we don't. You still havn't answered why you feel the need to bring this up in every thread.

fishdog wrote: »

Im not an engineer and I could teach a monkey how to get around many certified systems

Really? Post a video of this then maybe someone might belive you.

fishdog wrote: »

I was asked to give a talk to some insurance assessors about the way alarms are installed because so many were being bypassed.

I have talked to George Lowery & Frank Anderson on many occasions about the standards they were involved in writing.
Whats your point?
As for systems being bypassed, this is a very rare occurance. In 20+ years I have come across less than 10 cases of this.

fishdog wrote: »

Most homes in Europe do not have alarms, so they do not attach much importance to it!

Its strange then than we have European standards.

BNC wrote: »

Boring......Nothng to do with the OP's original question anymore :rolleyes:

Agreed but fishdog insists on bringing this topic into every thread.

atlantean

Well this thread has taken on a life of it's own - BTW: I didn't take Eircom up on their offer

KoolKid

It sure has. I am not sure why but Fishdog is like a dog with a bone when it comes to the PSA & EN50131.
Not getting into it. I have created a post here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055461114
This gives all the facts . Stoner has kindly locked it so as to prevent it getting a life of its own LOL.
Good luck in what ever system you choose. If you need any help or information give me a shout anytime