The importance of milk

RE*AC*TOR

So the whole weekend my latte art went to ****. I HOPED it was because of the milk - I normally get Avonmore, but I had no choice this time, so we ended up with Dunnes own milk.

Today my wife picked some Avonmore, and this evening...





Not my best efforts, but lesson learned - the milk IS important.

Gran Hermano

Regarding milk, I'm pretty sure I read that milk from cows feeding on silage as opposed to fresh grass produces 'bad' foam. It's down to the cows' diet and different amounts of fats in the milk. I'm guessing we're getting to that silage time of year.

Supermarket own brand milk tends to come from Northern Ireland, you can see the EU producers code on the label, maybe they are more silage dependant.

RE*AC*TOR

I've head that explanation, but another I've heard is that breeding season has an influence. The cows have calves around March/April and the milk gets very rich, but then tails off over the year. Avonmore apparently ask some of the farmers to hold off breeding till later in the year to balance out this effect.

I was a little skeptical, but the difference in my milk banished that skepticism.

brianthebard

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Regarding milk, I'm pretty sure I read that milk from cows feeding on silage as opposed to fresh grass produces 'bad' foam. It's down to the cows' diet and different amounts of fats in the milk. I'm guessing we're getting to that silage time of year.

Supermarket own brand milk tends to come from Northern Ireland, you can see the EU producers code on the label, maybe they are more silage dependant.

Dairy cattle would be on silage most of the year would be my guess, especially if any farmers are looking to produce maximum yields (they would supplement the grass in case of poor growth, etc). I'm not sure silage would/should affect the milks composition, it is just grass after all. I think grain feed might have a bigger impact. Moar research needed!

Mr Magnolia

Certainly going to pick up some avonmore so. Still can't get basic latte art together at all.

brianthebard

If ye are serious about experimenting with the different milks, try goat and organic cow's milks as well. I would be seriously surprised if Avonmore turned out to be the best for this, afaik its the biggest milk producer in Ireland, which means you are getting a huge mix of different yields in every litre. There's bound to be someone in there who was fed on silage! But then again maybe the amount of mixing means the milk is more uniform in its nutritional values?

RE*AC*TOR

brianthebard wrote: »

...try goat...

May I be the first to say... yuck.

Perhaps the milk discussion could be split to a different thread?

brianthebard

I'm presuming MrM will split this off when he comes back online? In the meantime, goats milk is lovely! But I've never had it in coffee would be fun to try.

Mr Magnolia

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

Perhaps the milk discussion could be split to a different thread?

Done. Let me know if you want any other posts moved back or here. You can also change the title if you wish:)

I'll let ye know how I get on with the avonmore, not so sure about the goat's milk though..

Mr Magnolia

The title of your post is my doing brianthebard, you (or I) can remove it if you wish

RE*AC*TOR

Cool - I'll describe in more detail what problems I came up against with the Dunnes milk.

In the initial "stretching" phase of the foaming, I found it nearly impossible to introduce air slowly. As soon as the tip was touching the surface big bubbles appeared very quickly. When I had finished "texturing" the milk didn't look terrible, it wasn't soap suds, but there were a few noticeable bubble. During the pour though, when it came to the stage to do the art bit, the stream wasn't thick and creamy, but instead thin, and it was really hard to make a white impression on the crema. I suppose I should've taken a photo of the duds to illustrate.

Back with Avonmore, I was instantly back with workable milk. Everything was predictable.

Mr Magnolia

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

In the initial "stretching" phase of the foaming, I found it nearly impossible to introduce air slowly. As soon as the tip was touching the surface big bubbles appeared very quickly. When I had finished "texturing" the milk didn't look terrible, it wasn't soap suds, but there were a few noticeable bubble. During the pour though, when it came to the stage to do the art bit, the stream wasn't thick and creamy, but instead thin, and it was really hard to make a white impression on the crema. I suppose I should've taken a photo of the duds to illustrate.

That sounds exactly like the problems I've been having with the various brands of milk I've tried.


*rushes out to buy avonmore*

brianthebard

Leaving aside differences in quality caused by feed, what are the things you look for in milk that make it good or bad for the art?

RE*AC*TOR

I don't fully know what makes one milk better than the other, all I know is that using Avonmore allows me to make better latté art, better textures milk, than with other brands I've tried.

I believe protein count is an important factor, as proteins add stability to the foam.

Khannie

I'd say goats milk is definitely worth trying. Definitely glenisks organic gear is worth a shot.

I've had trouble with the latte art myself. Put it down to me being s**t. We generally buy SuperValu's own brand milk (we go through a _LOT_ of milk with the two kids). I'll get some avonmore and compare.

I wonder if unpasteurised would be best? Difficult to get your hands on though.

Mr Magnolia

There is no comparison. The difference is genuinely incredible. I'll never put anything but avonmore in my steaming jug again. My art still sucks but the foundations are now in place.

RE*AC*TOR

Cool. That's good news. Once the milk is in place it just requires practice. Check out some vids on youtube - some of them can be quite useful for learning.

snickerpuss

I got some barista training by a bloke from Illy recently and he said every milk is totally different due to the proteins in the milk. So even if its the same brand a milk might be totally different just depending on the cow. I found this all very interesting, I had never really thought about it too deeply before! I've a long way to go before what I do can be called an art though!

RE*AC*TOR

For those that haven't already seen it, check out the first video here http://theotherblackstuff.ie/placesandfaces/shopvideos.htm

Two industry experts expand a little on it.

stimpson

If you haven't seen this, you must check it out. It's very long and goes into the science and technique and everything.

http://coffeegeek.com/guides/frothingguide

One thing I picked up from it is that fat is your friend. Full fat milk is far easier to work with and skimmed is nearly impossible - it could be that the fat content in Dunnes milk is fairly low.

Never thought of using goats milk though.... hmmm I wonder if breastmilk would work :eek:

Mr Magnolia

The texture was greatly improved also. I suspect it's down to the level of homogenization avonmore utilize. It's definitely down to the fat content so I can't imagine what other variable could be at play.

Victor_M

I'm reading the Barista Bible at the moment, has anyone else got a copy of it? By Matthew Algie.

It's got great Latte Art instructions, no mention of the type of milk though. Maybe I'm not as crap as I thought, I was just using the wrong milk all along:D

kmick

Most full fat milks come in at 3.5% fat regardless of brand. This is because whole milk contains around 4-4.5% fat and the fat is actually reduced and used for cream etc. Also the fat in milk has been homogenized (the fat bubbles made smaller and more uniform) to avoid the separation we all saw when we were kids in the glass milk bottles. It shouldn't be the case that one milk is better than another but in reality the quality could vary.

MarcoB

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Regarding milk, I'm pretty sure I read that milk from cows feeding on silage as opposed to fresh grass produces 'bad' foam. It's down to the cows' diet and different amounts of fats in the milk.

Yes, it depends on feed during the year. I think it is more the that it protein it affects.

RE*AC*TOR wrote: »

I believe protein count is an important factor, as proteins add stability to the foam.

That is it. I was at lectures with baristas talking about it, and one guy was from a farming background and confirmed it is well known protein content varies during the year. I have never looked but perhaps the labels actually change during the year to reflect this.

You can get special cappuccino milk, I have used it in work and seen it at various coffee trade shows. If milk is low in protein at certain times I expect they add more in. Skimmed milk usually has added proteins to make it taste less watery. You can also just buy unflavoured milk protein powders that you could possibly add in yourself (get it from health shops or bodybuilding supplement stores).

I hear aeration is important in froth but no baristas I asked purposely aerated prior to frothing, it could even be forcefully oxygenated, like fizzy drinks.

Khannie wrote: »

I wonder if unpasteurised would be best? Difficult to get your hands on though.

I think it is illegal to sell it here, raw milk is gaining popularity in the US, you would have to find a farmer to get it direct, possibly "under the counter" at a farmers market

snickerpuss wrote: »

I got some barista training by a bloke from Illy recently and he said every milk is totally different due to the proteins in the milk. So even if its the same brand a milk might be totally different just depending on the cow.

Yes, the cappuccino milk was a well known brand, maybe avonmore. Also the milk that goes into Baileys is a special milk, I think from cows under a certain age, probably more concerned with fat content. I know farmers get a big premium for Baileys milk, also a large % of Irish milk ends up in Baileys.

I can try and find out where we source the cappuccino milk.

JIZZLORD

i've always noticed the difference with milk. i always found that tescos full fat was crap for frothing while the local dairy stuff was good.

i was reading about cattle breeds a few weeks ago on wikipedia (don't ask me why, i just ended up on that topic by accident) and it all makes sense. i'm from a farming background and all of our cattle are beef cattle that'd give milk with a lower fat content than the average milking friesien or the at the top of the scale you'd have the jersey cow etc.

brianthebard

Yeah jersey milk would be better but pretty hard to get in Ireland I imagine.Also, not to keep harping on about it, goat's milk??? Higher fat content!

kmick

Baileys uses cream not milk.

Mr Magnolia

kmick wrote: »

Baileys uses cream not milk.

Baileys use UHT stuff.

Mr.Boots

Its not the fat content that matters< its the protein,
I always find low fat milk is better for frothing.

stimpson

Re-reading the article, it seems it is complicated...

Proteins and Fats
Treat Yourself!
Not only does half and half (10% fat) milk froth well, but it adds an entirely new layer of richness and vitality to milk-based espresso drinks.

Foam stability decreases reaching a minimum at about 5% (whole milk is 4%) fat and then increases rapidly as fat is increased to 10%, with highly stable cream-type foams forming when the fat content is increased to above the 10% level (table cream at 18% or whipping creams at 35% etc.)

Increases in fat content also cause a decrease in foam volume as well, up to a level of approximately 5% fat. Therefore skim milk offers the potential for the greatest volume of foam and most stable foam. This potential decreases gradually through 2% milk down to whole milk - it has the lowest potential to create heaps of foam but to create heaps of stable foam. Get it? Whole milk, while "foamable", is more difficult than skim milk. Here's where it gets weird again - go higher in fat than that 4% whole milk, (eg, beyond a fat content of 5%), and you once again see a steady increase in both foam volume and stability. There's a reason why whipping cream is 35% fat content

Now if our goal is to create volumes of foam, non-fat milk gets the nod. It will create the most foam for us. Despite that fact I like a tasty drink and therefore recommend whole milk or fuller fat milk. This may confuse some of you. Yes whole milk will be more difficult to foam and work with but in the end massive volumes of foam is not the end all and be all, a fabulously satisfying drink is. The fat in whole milk will make for a tastier drink and in the hands of a skilled barista whole milk will create as much foam as you need.

MarcoB

kmick wrote: »

Baileys uses cream not milk.

Yes, I had milk in my mind since I remember them quoting the % of Irish milk that goes in Balieys in some article. Has it on wikipedia too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baileys_Irish_Cream

The cream used in the drink comes from Glanbia Plc. The co-operative dairy used is located in Virginia, County Cavan, about 50 miles outside of Dublin. More than 4 million litres of Irish cream a year is used in the production of Baileys, amounting to 4.3% of Ireland’s total milk production

Mr.Boots wrote: »

Its not the fat content that matters< its the protein,
I always find low fat milk is better for frothing.

Some low fat milks and lots of skimmed milk will have added proteins to stop it tasting watery. You can just pick up 2 cartons side by side and compare the protein per 100ml figures. Skim milk usually has a slightly higher sugar/lactose % too.

antoniosicily

some notes:

Irish milk? the best I've ever drunk, it's simply wonderful! The full fat milk above all; the fact that you don't make lots of cheese save you from having **** milk everywhere (because better milk is used for cheese). Another good thing is that you don't do UHT, most of the milk in Italian supermarket is UHT, that is a watery milk!

For froathing milk with less fat is always better, so the low fat milk is good for froathing. So far I've got the best results with the Marks'n'Spencer low fat milk. (I've tried almost everything).

Unpasturized milk is wonderful but I haven't found it in Ireland; it's like drinking cream

If you have any hints/suggestions on where to find some good milk outside the traditional supermarkets circuits, I will appreciate it :-)

Sparks

You probably won't find unpasturized milk outside of farms (or maybe farmers markets) in Ireland; I've certainly never seen it outside of a farm.