HPAT

whadabouchasir

amacachi wrote: »

Exam 081

81 in section 1, that's intimidating!

Luv-To-Shop

Just wondering can you repeat hpat next year again or do you have to wait for two years???
got 42% sooooooooooo disapointed realy want to do medicine and my hopes have been crushed!!!!:mad::(:(:(

whadabouchasir

Luv-To-Shop wrote: »

Just wondering can you repeat hpat next year again or do you have to wait for two years???

You can repeat it next year,and as many times as you like.

WickerChair

Is it true that Mature students will get their offers now as some have already completed their Leaving Cert etc?

Do the results really matter for Mature Students?

pathway33

Luv-To-Shop wrote: »

Just wondering can you repeat hpat next year again or do you have to wait for two years???
got 42% sooooooooooo disapointed realy want to do medicine and my hopes have been crushed!!!!:mad::(:(:(

you can repeat hpat next year and say you do brilliant in the leaving yeah you wouldn't have to repeat the leaving, providing you have fulfilled the basic matriculation requirements along with your points

pathway33

WickerChair wrote: »

Is it true that Mature students will get their offers now as some have already completed their Leaving Cert etc?

Do the results really matter for Mature Students?

I think theres a CAO Round 0 for mature students who are not awaiting exam results which comes out in July but you would need to check www.cao.ie

WickerChair

Thank you - will do

amacachi

whadabouchasir wrote: »

81 in section 1, that's intimidating!

If you think that's intimidating you should see my --no, no I won't say it, that was close. :pac:

If only there was a career involving logic and reasoning, something in a trade union perhaps. Hmmm, maybe not. :pac:

WickerChair

'While the existence of average IQ test score differences has been a matter of accepted fact for decades, a great deal of controversy exists among scholars over the question of whether these score differences reflected real differences in cognitive ability. Some claim that there is no evidence for test bias since IQ tests are equally good predictors of IQ-related factors '

I actually think that people with "high IQs" do worse in tests like HPAT then people of average intelligence!

drrkpd

pathway33

Quote

Hpat and leaving cert results have to be within 1 year of each other AFAIK

Pathway don't think that is true- you can bring any Leaving Certificate from any year as long as you did all the subjects for matriculation at the same time.

The only timing is that you must use the hpat result within 2 years -so this years (2009) hpat result can only be used for medical school enrty in 2009 and 2010.

Only restrictions I can see on the cao medical application website.

amacachi

WickerChair wrote: »

I actually think that people with "high IQs" do worse in tests like HPAT then people of average intelligence!

Yeah, I'm in the 98th percentile of IQ but only 96th for the HPAT, BASTARDS! :mad:

The system is crap, probably always will be. I thought just using the LC was fairest, but some people don't like that, I don't like the HPAT due to the whole randomness and the difference one or little circles is going to make on people's lives.

GodlikeRed

Evening
My hpat result thing said i got 158
I checked my CAO application and just to be sure added the 3 sections,
my scores were, 1) 51, 2) 62, 3) 46

51+62+46= 159 not 158

Ironic that an exam basically testing my IQ cannot even add up my score correctly.

I no there is no point trying to get this sorted out, talking to the HPAT ppl is like trying to draw blood from a stone, an austrailian stone that is cac a diabhail far away

spellman

if approx 3500 did the HPAt and you got 185 (93% percentile) then 245 people did better than you in the hpat. somebody else got 180 (92%) so in the top 280. Even if all those 280 got 600 points in the leaving cert and there are approx 400 medicine places in ireland your 580 should guarantee you a place in an irish college.

amacachi

GodlikeRed wrote: »

Evening
My hpat result thing said i got 158
I checked my CAO application and just to be sure added the 3 sections,
my scores were, 1) 51, 2) 62, 3) 46

51+62+46= 159 not 158
[/IMG]

The scores aren't definite numbers, there's gonna be decimal points in them etc., and some of them will be rounded up or down. You really didn't think of that possibility? The number of answers you get right, possibly also which questions, has to then be compared to others and processed etc.

TheMightyDouche

spellman wrote: »

if approx 3500 did the HPAt and you got 185 (93% percentile) then 245 people did better than you in the hpat. somebody else got 180 (92%) so in the top 280. Even if all those 280 got 600 points in the leaving cert and there are approx 400 medicine places in ireland your 580 should guarantee you a place in an irish college.

Hold on, can you really be that sure, or accurate though?? I also got 92nd percentile but i got 183...so that means theres a range of at least 3 points within the 92nd percentile.

What im trying to ask is, i know there are approx 268 above the 92nd percentile, but is there any way we can know how many are included in the percentile itself?? (mabye im being petty, but it just looks to me that this kinda thing could be significant...especially on Joe Duffy in August:)

GodlikeRed

amacachi wrote: »

You really didn't think of that possibility? then .

What sort of tone is that? fight talk?
Yes but decimal points are rounded up after .5 of a point
so why say 159 one place and 158 another? surely the CAO wud have the same score as the hpat
Obviously since i got 159 overall i musst have gotten 158.5 or more which would entitle me to 159, its the way numbers are rounded up.
Anyway its neither here nor there,<snip>

equivocal?

amacachi

GodlikeRed wrote: »

What sort of tone is that? fight talk?
Yes but decimal points are rounded up after .5 of a point
so why say 159 one place and 158 another? surely the CAO wud have the same score as the hpat
Obviously since i got 159 overall i musst have gotten 158.5 or more which would entitle me to 159, its the way numbers are rounded up.
Anyway its neither here nor there, <snip>

equivocal?

51 could've been 50.6, 62 be 61.8 and 46 be 46.0. Add them and round it, do ya get 158 or 159?

Weezybabee

hey i got 154 in the h-****e and expect to get maybe around 555 ( after converting down) in the leavin..... do i stand a chance?? this hpat is a ****ing joke, its a pure lottery if u ask me:mad:

dog_pig

spellman wrote: »

if approx 3500 did the HPAt and you got 185 (93% percentile) then 245 people did better than you in the hpat.

The intervals aren't equal so that's not true.

pathway33

drrkpd wrote: »

pathway33

Quote

Hpat and leaving cert results have to be within 1 year of each other AFAIK

Pathway don't think that is true- you can bring any Leaving Certificate from any year as long as you did all the subjects for matriculation at the same time.

The only timing is that you must use the hpat result within 2 years -so this years (2009) hpat result can only be used for medical school enrty in 2009 and 2010.

Only restrictions I can see on the cao medical application website.

that would make more sense than my submission. So if you get 550 in the leaving this year you can keep belting away at the HPAT for the next 10 years if you like?

amacachi

dog_pig wrote: »

The intervals aren't equal so that's not true.

The percentile intervals are, there's only 2/3 points in each percentile score, so there'll be 245 +- about 15 who did better. I think 245 is a fair enough estimate though.

dog_pig

amacachi wrote: »

The percentile intervals are, there's only 2/3 points in each percentile score, so there'll be 245 +- about 15 who did better. I think 245 is a fair enough estimate though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentile_rank

Percentile ranks are not on an equal-interval scale; that is, the difference between any two scores is not the same between any other two scores.

amacachi

dog_pig wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentile_rank

I'm not retarded, I know how percentiles work. The scores aren't on an even interval but the number of people on each percentile is 1%, give or take a single person, so the number of people who scored above the 93rd percentile will be 6-7% of the total who took the test.

dog_pig

I never implied that you were retarded; look at what you said:

amacachi wrote: »

The percentile intervals are

amacachi

As in the number of people in each percentile.

So you're admitting you're wrong and looking for something semantically wrong in what I said? My work here is done.

star-pants

Ok people please keep it on topic, no personal abuse or digs - just post about the HPAT.

dog_pig

amacachi wrote: »

I'm not retarded, I know how percentiles work. The scores aren't on an even interval but the number of people on each percentile is 1%, give or take a single person, so the number of people who scored above the 93rd percentile will be 6-7% of the total who took the test.

Why would it give or take a single person?

amacachi

dog_pig wrote: »

Why would it give or take a single person?

For a crazy example, if 150 people took a test, the result of which was split into percentiles, would there be 1.5 people receiving each percentile score or would half of the scores be received by 1 person and the other half received by 2 people?

zdo0o

hey, I'm an irish national but doing A levels in the UK, got my hpat results today (flew to cork to do it!) and got 206, 99th percentile! absolutely ecstatic as you can imagine, just hoping that my A levels will be good enough to have a nice points equivalent to go with them! (i can only get a maximum of AAAa, which is 525 according to the UCD converter), however adding my 206 gives me 731,would that be enough? it seems low, but it's the max i can get congratulations to those who also scored highly, commiserations to those who didn't do as well as they hoped for, and i hope you still try to study medicine through another route if it is truly for you!

zdo0o

dog_pig wrote: »

Why would it give or take a single person?

i think it was a simple misunderstanding, you're correct in that the POINTS intervals are different (i.e. going from 150 to 170 points is a different percentile jump than 170 to 190) but the amount of people in each percentile jump (i.e. 50th percentile to 60th, and 60th percentile to 70th) is the same number of people.

Weezybabee

hey wud 710 be enough does any1 know??

dog_pig

zdo0o wrote: »

i think it was a simple misunderstanding, you're correct in that the POINTS intervals are different (i.e. going from 150 to 170 points is a different percentile jump than 170 to 190) but the amount of people in each percentile jump (i.e. 50th percentile to 60th, and 60th percentile to 70th) is the same number of people.

What about all the people around the 50th percentile, where most of the people who did the test will score.

Say if more than one percent of the total cohort get the same score - what happens then?

Jeebus

I see from the CAO site that 3356 is the correct figure for CAO 1st preferences for Medicine to date. That figure represented a big jump on previous years. I presume that 405 is the correct number of Medical places so it is difficult to fault your logic. That would mean that folks on the 88 percentile upwards would be in the most secure position. Someone here posted a message suggesting that quite a few of the High percentile people will not do Medicine after all. I wonder? They hardly put down medicine for the crack. Also their mothers will pile the pressure on!!! At 173 (84th percentile) I am now depressed. I can only hope that I hit 550 plus on the LC and that a lot of the HPAT high scorers didn't bother their arses with any work for the LC. My geuss is that the female HPat High Scorers will hit the high notes on the Leaving Cert...but there has to be a cohort of ADHD type male geniuses out there who never opened a book for the Leaving and who were forced by Mama to put Medicine down first. Maybe Im still in with a chance.

Let's be honest, its a load of bollocks. A complete load of toss. My girlfriend and her friend ordered the UMAT books and decided to photocopy them for each other. They did them together, they always prepared together, and they always, ALWAYS scored within 10 points of each other. I completely agree with what you say about section 2 also, they really messed that part up.

My girlfriend did one of those prep courses in Cork. She score 191. 96th percentile.

Her friend didn't. She scored in the 0-20% category.

So, don't abandon hope yet, Piste, definitely don't. Personally, I think you'll certainly get in, so many of my male friends have scored insanely high on their HPAT and, well, between you and me, they won't be studying medicine next year. And if they do, God help their patients. Well, more accurately, God help their soon-to-be-cadavers. Keep your chin up and try not to think about it. You did really brilliantly, its just down to fate now. And, even if it doesn't happen, then you can prepare and score far higher next year. You definitely can, I could see it after my girlfriend did the course. There is a 'knack' to it, and your frame of mind is important too.

The HPAT is such a joke. It could potentially cause dedicated people, like Piste for example to not get a place (though I definitely think you'll get in, myself!), while people who just flew in overnight will get to study medicine. I wouldn't mind if the test was an accurate reflection of your skills as a doctor, or hell, if it was a fair test of something vaguely relevant to the profession.

But it isn't. It is a load of bollocks. Lets all be honest here. The only people who disagree with this are those whom are scoring 480 in their Leaving and are praying ! It's a test that you can study for, and so favours the rich, who can afford the expensive prep classes and books. Section 2, the only section that is really relevant to the profession of medicine, is cheated in by every student who sits the exam. What student goes in with any frame of mind but "I'm going to say what I think they want to hear". The test becomes not a test of your ability to empathise, to feel, or to decide what is right in a given situation, but a test of how well you can lie.

Section 1 and 2 are ****ing shapes and comprehensions. I'm sorry, but Jesus Christ. The whole idea of this...I really cannot believe people agreed to this, ever.

Sorry for the rant. I thought the fact that my girlfriend is in would make me feel better about the whole situation, but evidently I am just of the opinion that the HPAT is a load of balls that does nothing but increase "storm and stress" for students, and increase the likelihood of fly-ins studying medicine.

At the same time, I wish everyone luck, always remember that even if the HPAT screws you over, its not that big a deal. Its never the end of the road. There are more options for you now than even, and if you really want to be a doctor, you will be. Good luck !

Crystler

Jeebus wrote: »

But it isn't. It is a load of bollocks. Lets all be honest here. The only people who disagree with this are those whom are scoring 480 in their Leaving and are praying ! It's a test that you can study for, and so favours the rich, who can afford the expensive prep classes and books. Section 2, the only section that is really relevant to the profession of medicine, is cheated in by every student who sits the exam. What student goes in with any frame of mind but "I'm going to say what I think they want to hear". The test becomes not a test of your ability to empathise, to feel, or to decide what is right in a given situation, but a test of how well you can lie.

I agree with the HPAT, sure I'm not happy with the scaled results, but there is no way to call me a 'fly-in' medicine applicant. I have been thinking about this for a good 2 years, reading, researching and hoping to get in. There is no reason to state that just because I agree with the HPAT says I'm aiming for 480 and praying, sure I'm praying, it's my biggest desire to get into the course! I'm in no way aiming for 480 points, I (hopefully) plan to get 510-525 , but unfortunately that is still not enough. The Leaving Cert is exactly how you described the HPAT It's a test that you can study for, and so favours the rich, who can afford the expensive prep classes and books.

Even saying that no exam will ever be fair so it can never appeal to everyone. Only option it seems to me is repeat and switch app.maths for some easy subjects like ag.science and physics to something like accountancy or some other hullaballu.

EDIT: That all being said, I guess I'll just have to wait longer.... I hope August goes well, and that you all get into whichever course you ultimately decide is your vocation.

Brainy

Well you can all blame the Government because it was Mary Hanafin as Minister for Education who was responsible for the introduction of the test.

Fianna Fail - another fine mess you got us into

bstoran

thats pathetic in fairness giving out about the hpat, of course its a fair way of getting in....
its still mostly about the LC anyway
ye obviously did crap if your giving out about it, a test is a test and you have no excuses about this one because you cant study for it and those courses do nothing there just a way of making money..
the only reason people dont do well is because they're not good enough, simple as...



........ha truth is harsh..........get over it

StatsMan

Hello to you all, I have been following this thread for a while now and just want to clear up some of the facts and figures people have been throwing around to help myself and hopefully some of you have a clearer picture of what your results mean. most of this has been taken from an article in today's Irish times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0623/1224249340275.html

Firstly around 2,900 people sat the exam - therefore there are 29 people (give or take 1) in each percentile of the results.

This also means that there at most 2,900 people competing for the places on offer.

Also the article points out that 480-490 places are on offer.

Therefore (480/2900) 16.5% of those applying will get in.

Taking into account the fact that a number of these places are reserved for people other then the "bog -standard" (non-mature, non- underprivileged schools) applicant - just as a very conservative guess - 400 will still be available to these applicants.

But also it must be understood that not all the 2,900 people who took the hpat were actually "bog - standard" applicants. Again - as a very rough guess maybe 300 of those sitting the test were mature/underprivileged schools applicants (excuse my lack of knowledge of the actual name for this type of entry)

Based on this 400/2600 or 15.3% of all bog standard applicants will get a place.

So where does that leave you with your hpat result in your hand. Well in my humble opinion this is how it will be

Those in the top 1% of hpat may get in once there LC is 500 (maybe even someone with 480 will get in but I have my doubts)

Those in the top 3 or 4% of hpat still require a LC of maybe 530+ to assure themselves of a place

Those in the top 4-20% hpat or so will be hoping for a LC of 550 or more. Then they should be confident of a place.

Those just outside this (maybe 20- 35, at most really) will need a near perfect leaving cert (550 as an absolute minimum) and then will be hoping that a large number those above them in the hpat do poorly in the leaving cert (which is by no means impossible)

Those below the top 35% of the HPAT - to be honest I don't see how you will get in this year.

nnkeenan

hi, i got 144 in the hpat 38%, seems extremely bad compared to what im reading on these blogs. I think i did a really good leaving, is there any hope?????:(

Crystler

nnkeenan wrote: »

hi, i got 144 in the hpat 38%, seems extremely bad compared to what im reading on these blogs. I think i did a really good leaving, is there any hope?????:(

There is a chance still, as the margin is v.low but you'll be needing a perfect LC (550+)

Inspired171

Statsman, you rock!! I'm in the top 18% and fairly certain of a near enough perfect leaving, so according to you...... I have a good chance!!:D:D:D
Thank you, I'm off to get the Times...:) xx

mikl

ya id have to agree with almost all of what statsman has said.. iv been running the figures over a few times also, heres what i think:
considering as statsman put it the top 15 percent will get in(rough estimate) that equates to a score of just above 170 on the hpat..
Also going by previous leaving certs the so top 15 percent have been achieving 570 points or above and gaining entry into medecine..this amounts to 554 on the new scale..
Add the 2 together and you have a combined score of 724..lets say 725..

so there you have it, a combined score of 725-730 will be the entry score for this year in the cao...id put the house on it!!

A Neurotic

I preferred JammyC's logic, he gave me a place on 530 points, Statsman tells me I need 550...:(

mikl

I apologise for any distress caused.;) it was my cousin who did the calculations though..3rd year actuary in UCD!

sarahbrennan

i notice some people have written up scores from each section as well as an overalll score, can anyone tell me where ye got this as i only got an overall score??

MrPain

sarahbrennan wrote: »

i notice some people have written up scores from each section as well as an overalll score, can anyone tell me where ye got this as i only got an overall score??

Log into Cao website, its at the bottom of 'my application'

A Neurotic

If you log into cao.ie, and view your application you can see your HPAT results at the bottom of the page, broken down into 3.

sarahbrennan

thanks

Where are people going saying each percentile rank contains the same number of people? Does it say somewhere on the HPAT website that this is the case? I doubt it is; would the results not fit a normal distribution curve?

Take IQ for an example: it follows a normal distribution. It certainly doesn't contain the same number of people in each percentile rank. My guess is that the HPAT would be no different.

It's impossible to work out exactly how many people are in each percentile range without knowing what standard deviation they've used; as far as I know they haven't revealed any of their methods.

If it does follow a normal distribution (or something similar) then the vast majority of people will have scored around the 50% percentile (it would be something like 68% of people within one standard deviation i.e. from 35% - 65%, or something similar - can't work it out without knowing their standard deviation). Again, something like 95% of people will fall within two standard deviations of the mean, which would be something like 20% - 80%. My guess would be that at an absolute max, only 7-8% of people will have scored above ~80%. People say that 2900 people took the exam, so that means (conservatively), that 232 people will have scored above 80%; which isn't an awful lot, really. (There's a bias on people posting their scores on Boards, so don't let that fool you. People aren't going to post their score if they've done badly, meaning more high scores will be posted on Boards, which doesn't give an accurate representation).

Now, last year, 2.6% of Leaving Cert. candidates scored between 550-600 points in their Leaving Cert.; approx. 58k people took their LC last year, meaning ~1500 people scored between 550-600 points. Assume that the same will be true for this year, that means that 1500 people (if they ALL chose to go for medicine, which is unlikely, as there are other courses out there) will already have between 550 and 560 points in the bag. Now, what scores are these likely to get in the HPAT? Well, they should follow the normal distribution (i.e. that 68% of them will score within one standard deviation), but I'm assuming that there's some bias, and one third (just an arbitrary number) of these 1500 people score above the 75th percentile. That means that 500 people will have between 710 and 770 points. There are roughly 400 places, meaning that anybody (in my opinion) who scores above 720 will be in with a shot. (By the way, I hope I'm right, please don't get your hopes up because of me).

sarahbrennan

logged on to my cao... where my hpat results are it still only gives my overall score and says n/a under each individual score?? really annoyed now, anyone know why that is? i did my leaving cert in 2008 so i already have my results from last year , could that be anything to do with it?

TheMightyDouche

StatsMan wrote: »

Hello to you all, I have been following this thread for a while now and just want to clear up some of the facts and figures people have been throwing around to help myself and hopefully some of you have a clearer picture of what your results mean. most of this has been taken from an article in today's Irish times

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0623/1224249340275.html

Firstly around 2,900 people sat the exam - therefore there are 29 people (give or take 1) in each percentile of the results.

This also means that there at most 2,900 people competing for the places on offer.

Also the article points out that 480-490 places are on offer.

Therefore (480/2900) 16.5% of those applying will get in.

Taking into account the fact that a number of these places are reserved for people other then the "bog -standard" (non-mature, non- underprivileged schools) applicant - just as a very conservative guess - 400 will still be available to these applicants.

But also it must be understood that not all the 2,900 people who took the hpat were actually "bog - standard" applicants. Again - as a very rough guess maybe 300 of those sitting the test were mature/underprivileged schools applicants (excuse my lack of knowledge of the actual name for this type of entry)

Based on this 400/2600 or 15.3% of all bog standard applicants will get a place.

So where does that leave you with your hpat result in your hand. Well in my humble opinion this is how it will be

Those in the top 1% of hpat may get in once there LC is 500 (maybe even someone with 480 will get in but I have my doubts)

Those in the top 3 or 4% of hpat still require a LC of maybe 530+ to assure themselves of a place

Those in the top 4-20% hpat or so will be hoping for a LC of 550 or more. Then they should be confident of a place.

Those just outside this (maybe 20- 35, at most really) will need a near perfect leaving cert (550 as an absolute minimum) and then will be hoping that a large number those above them in the hpat do poorly in the leaving cert (which is by no means impossible)

Those below the top 35% of the HPAT - to be honest I don't see how you will get in this year.

Great post Statsman. Just hope the Irish Times got their figures right! Where were people getting the 3356 applicants i heard yesterday?