Premiership Player Draft - Discussion Only

Bubs101

eirebhoy wrote: »

Surely there's 1 keeper left at the standard of a lot of those picked? I'm very surprised a certain keeper hasn't been picked yet. Maybe he's not rated as highly as I thought.

There are 2 keepers I'd rate higher than Jussi and Antii left.

Iago

pick made and pm sent.

Smegball

Heskey.. interesting I think he could of gone in a few rounds time though.

Iago

Smegball wrote: »

Heskey.. interesting I think he could of gone in a few rounds time though.

yeah, possibly. I was looking for a very particular type of strike partner for Cole though, and with 101 goals and 90 assists to date I didn't want to risk missing out on him!

shoutman

King and Heskey are both surprising picks to me, definately think their are better defenders left in King's spot and Heskey just isn't an overly impressive player but your reasons for picking him are very sound indeed.

Also interested to see who those two keepers you rate higher then Jussi are.

Bubs101

I wanted Heskey as well but I thought he wouldn't go for ages. There's one player who does pretty much the exact same thing as Heskey but has been more consistent who I thought would have gone first out of the two.

shoutman

Yea bubs i know who you are talking about I think and I agree.

Mr.Nice Guy

Damn you Bubs I wanted Ledley King to hang around for a while longer. :mad:

Bubs101

shoutman wrote: »

Yea bubs i know who you are talking about I think and I agree.

Wish I could say the same for you and your mystery defenders. Think the main thing that's held King back in real life is clearly injuries and without them his stock rises so much.

genericgoon

An interesting pick is Kewell. However, I think his bad seasons have eroded the value he should have.

LuckyLloyd

Harry ****ing Kewell imo.

Smegball

Not sure about Saha now tbh, didn't do a great deal in the PL apart from maybe one good half season with Fulham and a decent half season with United.

Xavi6

Rob Lee is a quality pick.

Dont be at yourself

There are some top-class strikers who have yet to be picked. I know Heskey is a fairly unique player, but I can't believe certain players are still available.

Iago

there are undoubtably strikers available that I would rate higher than Heskey, but not within the constructs of the team I'm building and not that I believe would compliment Cole as well. Will be interested to see who Bubs is referencing, although there are 3-4 players that I think could do a similar job as Heskey I felt that for contribution to the teams he's played with Heskey was well ahead of each of them.

+1 for Rob Lee too, quality pick.

Wreck

Rob Lee is the best of the recent picks imo, closely followed by Heskey. Kewell is a really poor pick I think. He has been pretty much a waste of space for the majority of his premiership career, and this has to count more than the highs of 1-2 seasons.

Dont be at yourself

I dunno about Kewell. He was one of the best players in the world when he was at Leeds. The left-wing position is also not one that's overflowing with top-class players. Obviously his time at Liverpool was a disaster, but should that take away from his Leeds form?

LuckyLloyd

Wreck wrote: »

Rob Lee is the best of the recent picks imo, closely followed by Heskey. Kewell is a really poor pick I think. He has been pretty much a waste of space for the majority of his premiership career, and this has to count more than the highs of 1-2 seasons.

PM me a better left winger currently available and I'll listen.

Xavi6

Have to agree with Lloyd. Left wingers aren't exactly at a premium and over the course of the Premiership Kewell has easily been in the top 10.

genericgoon

Yep , theres only 1 or 2 other left wingers who would be on par with Kewell. Once they're gone, the rest of the teams would probably be best served by playing right wingers who had some time there.

Wreck

Sorry, but can we just clear up on what criteria we are judging players? My understanding it was over the length of their premiership careers, rather than one or two seasons. By that reckoning, pretty much every other player is a better pick than Kewell. He was at premiership clubs for thirteen years and basically had a season and a half of good form, played ok for another couple of seasons and was truly **** for the rest of it.

Iago

Wreck wrote: »

Sorry, but can we just clear up on what criteria we are judging players? My understanding it was over the length of their premiership careers, rather than one or two seasons. By that reckoning, pretty much every other player is a better pick than Kewell. He was at premiership clubs for thirteen years and basically had a season and a half of good form, played ok for another couple of seasons and was truly **** for the rest of it.

Personally I think we should be looking at this from the point of view that if you had these 11 players, all at their peak age for a period of 3-4 years which team would have the most success. As such you would have to allow for drop-offs in form, either already experienced in the case of Kewell, or expected in the case of Torres as pointed out by Llyod.

The difficulty of course is having an unbiased view, when what will actually happen is that the person who picks the team will argue that the players have to be taken at their top form, and everyone else will argue about the poor season they may have/will have.

Bubs101

I really don't see what the issue is. Lloyd admitted the pick was a risk and that he believed that the great years balanced with the crap ones and in the crap one he occasionally showed flashes of brilliance

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But, when things went bad at Leeds Kewell failed to pull up the socks and put the work in. During his last season at Leeds, Kewell was prone to standing up front and offering little in the way of movement, workrate or inspiration. Aside from the odd wonder goal. And this failed to change once he arrived at Liverpool - despite repeated second chances from Benitez.

Kewell is a gamble. A technically brilliant player who is severely flawed mentally. In the early years at Leeds, he was consistently great. And he will easily go down as the finest contributor ever to wear an Australlian national jersey. And the rest? Well there was always moments of magic, flashes of brilliance.

Also, I think common sense would dictate that players like Cole, Fowler and Hasselbaink had enought time at the top to dismiss their worse years. Would be extremely harsh for someone to criticize Hasselbaink for being bad at Boro and Charlton in the same way you'd criticize Kewell or maybe

Bowyer

who were very impressive for a shorter period of time and then declined severely

shoutman

I thought that from the outset the brief was that you chose a season's worth of the player. Ie. the player from the season when he was playing at his best in the premiership.

Bubs101

shoutman wrote: »

I thought that from the outset the brief was that you chose a season's worth of the player. Ie. the player from the season when he was playing at his best in the premiership.

That sounds more like the one that inspired this one from Lloyd's poker board where you got his best 2 season period and there didn't look like there was a 40 game quota. Never saw that mentioned here

rules wrote:

You can only take players who participated in at least 40 premiership games during their career (this means that one season wonders are excluded from consideration - a player will need to be on a squad for more than one season);
- The player is assessed on the basis of how good he was during his period in the premiership only. Therefore, if you selected Edgar Davids or Youri Djorkaeff for example - you would be getting the Spurs and Bolton versions respectively - not the guys who destroyed European football at Juve and Inter during their primes;
- Selection order will be randomly decided by a draw from a hat and will go ABBAABBAABBA and so on;
- Clock expires on a drafter after 24 hrs. After that time, the next player on the list will be allowed to go and it will up to the skipped player to post a pick in the draft thread at their earliest convenience;
- When someone has completed a pick, they should pm the next in line to inform them that it is their turn;
- The Draft thread is for picks only and should be left uncluttered. There will be a separate thread for discussion of picks;
- People are obliged to go to google images and put up a photo of the player they are selecting and provide some sort of spiel as to why they are drafting them at that time;
- After each participant has selected eleven players they are obliged to put one more post in the draft thread which provides a final formation and discusses the tactics that would be ideally employed in an imaginary game;

Nothing there about 1 season

shoutman

Well fourty games is about a season therefore fourty games should be the sample size as it is the minimum sample no?

Xavi6

I would have thought that players were being picked on their best 40 game period, whenever that may have been.

Necronomicon

I originally thought so too, but it was clarified a few pages ago that it's on the basis of a player's entire contribution to the Premiership. So if they had one amazing season and two rubbish seasons, it balances out as three fairly average seasons.

At least that was my reading.

shoutman

I think it should be their best fourty games.

Wreck

If it's their best 40 game period then Kewell arguably should have been picked ahead of Giggs, Overmars, and Pires, not to mention many of the non-left sided attackers that have been picked.

shoutman

I disagree, Giggs, Overmars and Pires all definately had better 40 game periods then Kewell.

Maybe it shouldn't be best fourty games individually more so best 40 games they played concurrently, alla best season which they played in....

LuckyLloyd

Wreck wrote: »

Sorry, but can we just clear up on what criteria we are judging players? My understanding it was over the length of their premiership careers, rather than one or two seasons. By that reckoning, pretty much every other player is a better pick than Kewell. He was at premiership clubs for thirteen years and basically had a season and a half of good form, played ok for another couple of seasons and was truly **** for the rest of it.

Read my writeup. Firstly, Kewell was great for about three and a half seasons at Leeds. And during his first two years at Liverpool, when he played he was good (not great). He still had an impact - take the Olympiakos CL game in December 2004 as an example when he was magic off the bench.

As such, I am not claiming that I am getting a phenomenal, out of this world player. Which is what he was in those first three years at Leeds (seriously, he was ****ing awesome). I'm getting a flawed genius with bundles of talent - but issues with motivation and fitness.

My contention? You look at the sacrifices he has made to play for Australia in terms of travel and time away from his family (sacrifices that did not endear him to his club managers) and deep down there is an honest footballer who will try his guts out in certain circumstances. And then you consider the flashes of brilliance that were there even in the bad seasons and I believe that, if picking him does not get me someone who is absolutely awesome, it gets me a threat who is going to hurt you down the left flank a few times a game.

If Kewell had maintained his form of the first three years, he would be a top ten pick. Don't forget that. He's dropped five rounds because of the mental issues and loss of consistent good form. But, given where we are now with wingers - I think this represents decent value.

No, this is not a peak one season league. If it was you could take Kewell 2000 / 01 in the first 20 picks. But, put it this way, I think his impact on the premiership > that of Ashley Young.

when he was good, he was very very good

Wreck

shoutman wrote: »

I disagree, Giggs, Overmars and Pires all definately had better 40 game periods then Kewell.

Maybe it shouldn't be best fourty games individually more so best 40 games they played concurrently, alla best season which they played in....

I did say arguably.:D Kewell was touted as being one of the best players in the world at one stage, and not just in his postion.

Also when I said 40 game periods, I did mean consecutive games - i.e. a season.

shoutman

You could take Kewell in the first twenty picks but you wouldn't because even in 00/01 he wasn't better then any of the top fourty when they were in their prime.

He played very well in 00/01 but at the same time he was never a world beater. I think he was touted as being the best in the world at one stage much like Milan Baros was after he had that phenomenal run in the Euros with his national side.

Xavi6

Kewell at Leeds was better than Duff and Robben imo

LuckyLloyd

shoutman wrote: »

I think it should be their best fourty games.

Well, it isn't. And this has been clarified ad nauseum.

shoutman

Fair enough boss.

LuckyLloyd

shoutman wrote: »

You could take Kewell in the first twenty picks but you wouldn't because even in 00/01 he wasn't better then any of the top fourty when they were in their prime.

He played very well in 00/01 but at the same time he was never a world beater. I think he was touted as being the best in the world at one stage much like Milan Baros was after he had that phenomenal run in the Euros with his national side.

Xavi6 wrote: »

Kewell at Leeds was better than Duff and Robben imo

QFT

Wreck

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Read my writeup. Firstly, Kewell was great for about three and a half seasons at Leeds. And during his first two years at Liverpool, when he played he was good (not great). He still had an impact - take the Olympiakos CL game in December 2004 as an example when he was magic off the bench.

As such, I am not claiming that I am getting a phenomenal, out of this world player. Which is what he was in those first three years at Leeds (seriously, he was ****ing awesome). I'm getting a flawed genius with bundles of talent - but issues with motivation and fitness.

My contention? You look at the sacrifices he has made to play for Australia in terms of travel and time away from his family (sacrifices that did not endear him to his club managers) and deep down there is an honest footballer who will try his guts out in certain circumstances. And then you consider the flashes of brilliance that were there even in the bad seasons and I believe that, if picking him does not get me someone who is absolutely awesome, it gets me a threat who is going to hurt you down the left flank a few times a game.

If Kewell had maintained his form of the first three years, he would be a top ten pick. Don't forget that. He's dropped five rounds because of the mental issues and loss of consistent good form. But, given where we are now with wingers - I think this represents decent value.

No, this is not a peak one season league. If it was you could take Kewell 2000 / 01 in the first 20 picks. But, put it this way, I think his impact on the premiership > that of Ashley Young.

when he was good, he was very very good

I'm not saying that Kewell has no talent, he was at one stage a truly phenomenal player. What I am asking is how are we judging him under this draft? I really feel that if we are looking at his preimership career as a whole, the bad years must out weigh the couple of good seasons, thus making him a mediocre pick at this stage. There are plenty of better players still available, I agree not too many of them are leftsided attackers. But if you look at the players drafted in the last few picks, my feeling is Kewell is the worst of them. Even more so in the context of a team that already has Ginola.

LuckyLloyd

Wreck wrote: »

I'm not saying that Kewell has no talent, he was at one stage a truly phenomenal player. What I am asking is how are we judging him under this draft? I really feel that if we are looking at his preimership career as a whole, the bad years must out weigh the couple of good seasons, thus making him a mediocre pick at this stage. There are plenty of better players still available, I agree not too many of them are leftsided attackers. But if you look at the players drafted in the last few picks, my feeling is Kewell is the worst of them. Even more so in the context of a team that already has Ginola.

Eh, I can't explain it any better than above?

Wreck

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Eh, I can't explain it any better than above?

I'll take that to mean that you now agree with me that the bad years outweigh the good years and he is at this stage a mediocre pick. :pac:

LuckyLloyd

Wreck wrote: »

I'll take that to mean that you now agree with me that the bad years outweigh the good years and he is at this stage a mediocre pick. :pac:

Not really. I do have a lower opinion about your reading comprehension skills though! :pac::pac::D

whatawaster

It's pretty simple - it's been stated that the quality of a pick is related to that players overall contribution to the premiership. What this means may be different to each person, it's subjective and when we're judging the best team at the end i'm sure there will be plenty of arguments, but i've taken into consideration:

1. The players peak form
2. How long that player stayed near or at their peak
3. How long they played at a level lower or much lower than their peak and was there extenuating circumstances - ie: injuries (kewell, fowler), personal problems (merson), attitude (collymore) etc, etc.
4. If there were extenuating circumstances as above can i still justify that pick? In the case of injuries i would tend to say yes most of the time (ie: fowler is a great pick, even though he's been ineffective for years).

Wreck

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Not really. I do have a lower opinion about your reading comprehension skills though! :pac::pac::D

Due to the fact that I'm pretending to work while browsing boards,I only ever have time to read the first and last lines of people's posts (still haven't made it through flushdraw's novel yet).

ditpoker

kewell...? fair enough...
ginola...? fair enough...
kewell and ginola....???? hmmmmm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

It's important to forget how much of a waste of space he amounted to at Liverpool

picked for his "overall contribution to the premiership"

hmmmmm x 2

ditpoker

pick made, better than kewell, shoutman's up! pm sent.

will it be possible to have say after round 6 a JANUARY TRANSFER WINDOW, where for example, if i realise i really wanted ashley young, but shoutman has no keeper, i can swap him Tim Flowers for Ashley young? just as an example?

Trippie

Sigh at taking Batty Jeff I had him earmarked as one of my next picks.

Trippie

ditpoker wrote: »

pick made, better than kewell, shoutman's up! pm sent.

will it be possible to have say after round 6 a JANUARY TRANSFER WINDOW, where for example, if i realise i really wanted ashley young, but shoutman has no keeper, i can swap him Tim Flowers for Ashley young? just as an example?

LLoyd said we can swap players at any time we want

shoutman

I'm happy with my pick, Gordon you are up.

shoutman

I think its interesting that Trippie went with a fullback, Gary Kelly was good when he played think there was better though.