Premiership Player Draft - Discussion Only

titan18

- - Jaaskalainen - -

Clarke - Bould - Stimac - Irwin

- - - Jenas --- Scholes- - -Taylor

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Gudjohnsen

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- - - Di Canio - - - Viduka

I believe my team is very solid and is capable of beating any team in this draft.The front 3 and Scholes have enough creativity and firepower to finish any team off.With my defensive line and my midfield of Taylor and Jenas, I should be able to hold any team's forward line at bay.If any shots are fired at goal, Jussi is good enough to save them.

In retrospect at looking at the draft, I should have held off on drafting a keeper as there was a lot of quality left in the later rounds.

Mitch Connor

Finsihed off my team with Howard.

Final 11 looks like this:

Howard
Lescott
Chimbonda
Distin
Toure
Arteta
Lampard
Alonso
Kanchelskis
Martins
van Nistlerooy

Not a bad line up imo. Maybe I could have gone for a bit more strength in midfield, but i think there is enough work rate in the guys I have there to make up for it, and in terms of creative and goalscoring ability, i think it is a great set up. Up front Ruud guaruntees me goals imo, and Martins offers pace and flexability - i picked him so that I could got 451/433 with Arteta dropping back into midfield and Martins/Kanchelskis offering out balls and blistering pace down each wing.

Plenty of pace and power in my defence too, and Lescott is a definite goal threat too, which is a great bonus.

Overall, I do think I made some mistakes, but I am honestly very happy with how my team has turned out.

Xavi6

Done and dusted -

Team -

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Seaman

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Barton

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Southgate

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Carvalho

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Ziege

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Dacourt

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Gillespie

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Berkovic

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Sinclair

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Ferdinand

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Collymore

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Probably didn't need to pick a keeper so early, especially considering that there is one superb one that hasn't been picked yet.

Really happy with my centre half pairing and my strikeforce. The right hand side should benefit from having played together for a while. Central midfield has balance as well.

Quite satisifed overall.

OpenEnded

those last 3 picks have been excellent. there's been a very high quality of picks at the back end of the draft

LuckyLloyd

Ok folks, we are now only eight picks away from finishing the draft. Following some much appreciated feedback from Xavi (the only participant who is also a soccer forum mod), I have settled on the following method of deciding who wins:

- We have 24 teams;
- I plan to do a draw which will pair 16 teams off in a first round and randomly provide the other eight with a bye;
- I then plan to start a new thread entitled "Premiership Draft Cup 1st round";
- This thread will announce the draw and serve as a place to discuss and debate all of the matchups;
- For each match up I will create a thread with a poll (one option for each team) and link the poll thread to the root thread. I will specifically request that NO posts of any nature are made in these poll threads. This way, they will hopefully dip out of view after a couple of hours;
- Each poll thread will be set to close after 48 hours, at which point the thread can be closed;
- The poll will be public, and only votes from participants will be counted. This is because only the participants will be fully familiarised with the rule clarifications, debate and discussion that has taken place here;
- We announce results in the first round thread and then close it;
- And set up a new thread for the next round with the same process;

I'll link each match round thread to this one. In the meantime, I would like if people could keep announcing their final formations and summary of what they like about their final team as I will copy and paste this into every individual poll thread (if those who have already done one want to redo then feel free ).

Necronomicon

Come on first round bye

My first reaction at reading that was that the rest of the forum should be able to vote, but on reflection I can see why it's being done this way. The rules have been debated enough between us, and a lot of caveats might be lost on the casual observer. Also, since there are only 24 people allowed to vote, games will be tighter. And because it's public, we'll be able to see if anyone tries to vote for themselves

Oh and web-cam draw ftw :pac:

LuckyLloyd

Necronomicon wrote: »

Come on first round bye

My first reaction at reading that was that the rest of the forum should be able to vote, but on reflection I can see why it's being done this way. The rules have been debated enough between us, and a lot of caveats might be lost on the casual observer. Also, since there are only 24 people allowed to vote, games will be tighter. And because it's public, we'll be able to see if anyone tries to vote for themselves

Oh and web-cam draw ftw :pac:

Voting for yourself is strongly recommended.

Mitch Connor

Was there a ruling on player injuries, for guys like Dyer, or Rosicky - players with massive injury problems. Does injuries count or do we judge the players purely on the games they did play?

LuckyLloyd

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Was there a ruling on player injuries, for guys like Dyer, or Rosicky - players with massive injury problems. Does injuries count or do we judge the players purely on the games they did play?

This is a very difficult question. We aren't playing a league but instead a maximum of five cup games for which we will have to assume each player is fit and able to play. As such, I think everyone should accept that every player will stay fit throughout all of their ties in the competition - so a voting rationale along the lines of team x > team y because team y is sure to end up with nine players is not a valid form of reasoning.

Where I think injuries have their impact is in so far as they have limited a player's overall impact on the premiership throughout their career. As such, there will be question marks of how good Kewell and Dyer are because a significant portion of their career has been blighted by injury. And they have often been playing at a reduced capacity on the return from a long layoff and ultimately have not dominated for long stretches in the way a Scholes or Keane figure has. So injuries are just another part of the equation of assessing a player's overall worth.

I'm open to questions and opinions on this topic by the way.

LuckyLloyd

Everyone, if they have not already done so, needs to name a Team Captain.

Mitch Connor

In here... damn... don't know who to pick....

I suppose I will make Lampard my captain.

shoutman

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Lehmann

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--Lauren----McGrath--Short----Le Saux---
Roy----gerard(c)

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Barnes

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Young

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Tevez

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drogba

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I'm pretty happy with the way my team turned out, if I could do it all again, there is only one position that I would change I reckon.

I have pace and trickery on the wing, both players are more then capable of delivering quality balls into target man Drogba, and with Tevez able to pounce on any knock downs I think going forward I may have one of the most attackingly dynamic teams. Gerard too will look to push up and no doubt he can score goals from midfield. Barnes will probably stay a little bit deeper and I will use him and Gerard to spread the balls, either out wide or for through balls to Drogba or Tevez if he feels like breaking any possible offside traps.

Yes I have a very attacking line up but I feel that my back four and keeper are about as solid as they come. Proven class in McGrath and two of the best defensive wingbacks in the league in Le Saux And Lauren. I think in his time Short was an underrated centre back, not prone to making mistakes and he will fit in nicely along side McGrath.

Gerrard will be my captain fantastic.

Xavi6

Should we have a thread where everyone makes one post summarising their team? Giving strengths, weaknesses, captains, set piece takers, tactics etc?

Frisbee

Xavi6 wrote: »

Should we have a thread where everyone makes one post summarising their team? Giving strengths, weaknesses, captains, set piece takers, tactics etc?

I thought this was how it was going to go down. Think it would be a good idea...

LuckyLloyd

Xavi6 wrote: »

Should we have a thread where everyone makes one post summarising their team? Giving strengths, weaknesses, captains, set piece takers, tactics etc?

Rather than a new thread let's put it in the picks thread?

everyone needs to put one last post in there which (minimum) states:

- team in order selected;
- playing formation;
- team captain;

And then it can be left to people to decide how much they want to write after that. I can then copy and paste that post into the matchup poll threads as they will be easy for me to find. Happy?

mayordenis

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Hislop

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--Babbel---Campbell---Agger---Harte

Wright-Philips---Nolan---Barry---Pires

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Rush---Klinsmann

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Captained by Sol Campbell



This is going to be edited heavily later because I just realised I have to go to work - sort it out when I get to work :P

shoutman

People may want to adjust their team layout depending on their opposition to try and neutralise potential threats?
So maybe if we just leave it until the draw is made?

LuckyLloyd

shoutman wrote: »

People may want to adjust their team layout depending on their opposition to try and neutralise potential threats?
So maybe if we just leave it until the draw is made?

I'd say post a base write up in the picks thread then we can lock it. After I post the draw, people can make opponent specific adjustments if they like.

Bubs101

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Hedman

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Neville

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King----Dunne----Bridge

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Davids

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Wise(c)

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Okocha

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Ronaldo

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J.Cole

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Boksic

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I'm very happy with my team, and would probably only change one pick if I could.

Starting from the back I have 3 guys who were/are the defensive talisman for their clubs in King, Dunne and Hedman who have numerous supporters player of the year between them (rarities for a defensive player). They are extremely solid at the back and that's where they'll stay (no goal keeping corners for Hedman). I have the best right back ever in Neville and in Bridge I have a quality left back with a great pass. Dunne plays beside Bridge to help cover his lack of pace. They will be a Mourinho-esque back four in that they are full backs and strictly full backs. None of this left backs running to the front. Both have shown that they can do this.

The midfield is the real crowning joy of my team. Wise and Davids will harry the opposition and get me the ball, I feel they complement each other well as Wise will break the rules as much as possible to get the ball whereas Davids has the continental experience to play well tactically, read the game and has a good pass to. Okocha in essence has a free role, he will be used to get the ball to Cole and Ronaldo but obviously will be encouraged to dribble up the field.

Ronaldo and Cole compliment each other fantastically. The worlds best player and Chelsea's best from last year can play on both sides and love running at defenders. In essence, they will be constantly swapping wings and if one has no luck against a fullback, they can swap so the other can take a crack at him. Needless to say Ronaldo will be my main attacking threat in the team.

Boksic will be working of scraps and crosses. He won't be expected to do much running, just use his technichal skill to make the most of chances when he gets them. His guile and experience should help him get free positionally while his time abroad (particularly in Italy) will have forced him to play in many different tactics so he should have no trouble adapting to this one. His goal ratio was very impressive while playing with Noel Whelan and co so it's not unrealistic to expect him to improve while playing with a higher quality team

shoutman

I'm liking your team bubs, someone like Drogba would have done wonders.

Mitch Connor

Personally, I think you are vastly over rating Davids, with regards only to his premiership career. He was well past his best. Carrick was spurs' best and most influencial player in Davids' debut season, and the following season, without Carrick, Davids and Spurs struggled massively. Also, I reckon you'd have a good chance of Wise getting himself sent off against some of the midfields in this draft. While there is more bite in your midfield than most, I would say bar tenacity Wise and Davids would be shown up by a lot of the midfields in this draft.

In Ronaldo and Cole you have saved your midfield creatively though. Not really sure about Okacha either, moments of brilliance, but I never thought he was consistent enough.

Bubs101

Davids only played 9 games in that season where Spurs faltered due to a preseason injury and a move to Ajax but 31 of the 38where Spurs finished 5th so there's no way you can ignore his contribution and put it all on Carrick not to mention Davids was picked in the eleventh round for a reason. He played in the heart of midfield for the clear majority of Spurs' best Premiership season so I don't think I overated him

And considering the Lloyd said that injuries can't really count because they are one off games, the chances of someone getting sent off is so minimal (at most your talking one in 20 games I'd say in the case of a worst case scenario Vinnie Jones) that it's not really worth considering. My team does seem to be the marmite of this draft though

whatawaster

Bubs101 wrote: »

Davids only played 9 games in that season where Spurs faltered due to a preseason injury and a move to Ajax but 31 of the 38where Spurs finished 5th so there's no way you can ignore his contribution and put it all on Carrick not to mention Davids was picked in the eleventh round for a reason. He played in the heart of midfield for the clear majority of Spurs' best Premiership season so I don't think I overated him

Davids was very average at Spurs in my opinion. Great in his heyday though.

eagle eye

I'm starting to wonder if it was all worth it. You have posters here who have not even heard of some of my picks. Thats a sad reflection on how this cup thing might go. Also now its a cup, I thought when we were doing this thing that you should be picking your team based on consistency and regularity of play. There are players on a number of teams who were very injury prone and while they look good in a line up they are not going to be available for every round. So if you see a team winning this thing who have players who missed every other game, like for instance Boksic, well then its ridiculous.

eagle eye

whatawaster wrote: »

Davids was very average at Spurs in my opinion. Great in his heyday though.

Agreed, he played a handful of good games for them. And a lot of his appearances were as a substitute late in the game. He fell out of favour very quickly.

eirebhoy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

- The poll will be public, and only votes from participants will be counted. This is because only the participants will be fully familiarised with the rule clarifications, debate and discussion that has taken place here;

I've been following it from the start.

Xavi6

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm starting to wonder if it was all worth it. You have posters here who have not even heard of some of my picks. Thats a sad reflection on how this cup thing might go. Also now its a cup, I thought when we were doing this thing that you should be picking your team based on consistency and regularity of play. There are players on a number of teams who were very injury prone and while they look good in a line up they are not going to be available for every round. So if you see a team winning this thing who have players who missed every other game, like for instance Boksic, well then its ridiculous.

Really? How do you know that?

And which players specifically? I know you said it about Jason Wilcox but that's ridiculous as he was still playing regular Premiership football in this decade so unless someone in the draft is 12 then everyone would know who he is.

LuckyLloyd

eirebhoy wrote: »

I've been following it from the start.

eirebhoy's vote will also count - as it will stave off the possibility of a 12 - 12 tie. Make sure to vote on them all mate! Thanks.

And Eagle Eye, you can't please all of the people, all of the time.

Frisbee

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

you can't please all of the people, all of the time.

Lies.
For all people pleased all of the time you need:

coke and hookers

LuckyLloyd

Frisbee wrote: »

Lies.
For all people pleased all of the time you need:

coke and hookers

Bounty Hunter

screw you guys i dont wanna vote, im going to get my own draft with blackjack and hookers, hang about screw the draft.

mayordenis

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

screw you guys i dont wanna vote, im going to get my own draft with blackjack and hookers, hang about screw the draft.

Ahh Forget the whole dam thing.

eagle eye

Xavi6 wrote: »

Really? How do you know that?

And which players specifically? I know you said it about Jason Wilcox but that's ridiculous as he was still playing regular Premiership football in this decade so unless someone in the draft is 12 then everyone would know who he is.

Well Ras ta openly admitted he had not heard of Alan Wright, and Titan 18 admitted that he does not remember Roland Nielsen playing for Sheffield Wednesday. And thats my two full backs.

Frisbee

eagle eye wrote: »

Well Ras ta openly admitted he had not heard of Alan Wright, and Titan 18 admitted that he does not remember Roland Nielsen playing for Sheffield Wednesday. And thats my two full backs.

And two people who don't know them.
You can't expect everyone to know every player picked in all fairness

Xavi6

eagle eye wrote: »

Well Ras ta openly admitted he had not heard of Alan Wright, and Titan 18 admitted that he does not remember Roland Nielsen playing for Sheffield Wednesday. And thats my two full backs.

Someone hadn't heard of Alan Wright? Really?! That is pretty unforgiveable.

eagle eye

Frisbee wrote: »

And two people who don't know them.
You can't expect everyone to know every player picked in all fairness

I do

Xavi6 wrote: »

Someone hadn't heard of Alan Wright? Really?! That is pretty unforgiveable.

I think its surprising that someone wouldn't know a player that was a mainstay for so long in a decent team. Its understandable if someone is very young, but that was my point in the first place.

titan18

eagle eye wrote: »

Well Ras ta openly admitted he had not heard of Alan Wright, and Titan 18 admitted that he does not remember Roland Nielsen playing for Sheffield Wednesday. And thats my two full backs.

In fairness, he played for Wednesday between 1989 and 1994.I was born in 1989, so I couldnt never actually saw him play.I did know who he was though, as he played for Coventry in the late 90's.

Iago

Thanks again Llyod for organising and running this, and as you rightly say you can't please all of the people all of the time.

However if we look at some of the debates in here to date, they have been mainly around a players predicatation to injuries and a fair way to assess their impact on the premier league. If we take someone like (not trying to pick on anyone in particular here) Torres you would have to really question his "impact" on the premier league. Liverpool have won nothing since he joined them, and while there's no doubting that he's got an enormous potential to leave a lasting impression on the league it's really hard to argue that he has already done so.

Now that we've set up the teams we're voting on which 11 will beat which, and to be honest I'm not sure how honest/clear/rational people will be when voting, in consideration of the 'impact on the premier league" keeping to the same example, I think most would accept that Torres would wilt in the face of Van Nistlerooy, Drogba & Shearer, but in terms of premier league impact he could also be considered to be behind most of the strikers picked as he simply hasn't done enough to justify being ahead of them.

I don't know a better way off-hand to decide this, and I'm not really advocating a change in structure but I don't think the team that has had the most impact on the premiership is really the team that will win this out.

Just to throw an idea out there, what about a league format each time plays all other teams once with 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw? Would mean more effort to compile and sort out but might give some clearer results, albeit with the same drawbacks as outlined above.

astrofool

A league format would kill it, too many matches to be played, and people would lose interest very quickly and just enter default results.

It all looks a bit of fun, and a cup setup will sort it quickly enough, but, dare I say, Alan Wright might not be looked upon favourably when two of the teams play against each other

LuckyLloyd

I agree with Iago to an extent, I will be thinking of Torres in lessor terms than his current abillity (if that makes sense) as per the structure and rules of the entire process. At the end of the day, like in any democratic process, people don't always vote the "right" way or for the "right" reasons. I think that we have clarified many of the finer points in a sufficient amount of detail, but it would be impossible to guarantee that everyone has read and imbibed all of the debate and discussion properly.

And I agree with Astrofool 100% - I think the process I have outlined will push the limits of people's patience with the whole thing.

Anyway, keep those final writeups and naming of Captains coming folks!!

Wreck

When judging the individual team match ups would it not be better to vote for the team that would perform better over the course of a premiership season, rather than win one-off cup tie. This would seem to me to be more in keeping with the criteria we have been using to pick players throughtout the draft, and would allow for things like injuries, temprament and consistency in form to be taken into account.

Necronomicon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Anyway, keep those final writeups and naming of Captains coming folks!!

Are we still waiting for the teams to be complete before making one final write up on the entire team, as per your suggestion earlier?

Dont be at yourself

How about we just get everyone to rank the teams from best to worst (in the context of being equipped to win a league), and collate the results into one league table?

Mitch Connor

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

How about we just get everyone to rank the teams from best to worst (in the context of being equipped to win a league), and collate the results into one league table?

+1 to that from me. Much better imo - this cup idea completely ruins it for people who avoided injury prone players like Dyer and Rosicky - players who have shown themselves to be great on occasion, but have irregularly been able to show it.

Frisbee

Lads Lloyd went through the bother of getting this up an running.
Can we not just go with what he says?
The Cup idea is direct and easy to do

eagle eye

Frisbee wrote: »

Lads Lloyd went through the bother of getting this up an running.
Can we not just go with what he says?
The Cup idea is direct and easy to do

The idea was to pick a team of Premier League players, not FA/League Cup players. I spent a lot of time on this, and avoided injury prone players due to the fact that it was a Premiership(not cup game) draft. There were lots of players that I avoided because of the injury factor. This means that a cup thing now makes no sense at all. It means that those who picked injury prone players gain an advantage which imo makes a joke of the whole thing.

Frisbee

eagle eye wrote: »

The idea was to pick a team of Premier League players, not FA/League Cup players. I spent a lot of time on this, and avoided injury prone players due to the fact that it was a Premiership(not cup game) draft. There were lots of players that I avoided because of the injury factor. This means that a cup thing now makes no sense at all. It means that those who picked injury prone players gain an advantage which imo makes a joke of the whole thing.

It's done in terms of impact on the premier league.
People who picked the likes of Rosicky made a silly pick, as his impact on the EPL was negligible.
Therefore they are running into a flaw with their team.

mayordenis

eagle eye wrote: »

The idea was to pick a team of Premier League players, not FA/League Cup players. I spent a lot of time on this, and avoided injury prone players due to the fact that it was a Premiership(not cup game) draft. There were lots of players that I avoided because of the injury factor. This means that a cup thing now makes no sense at all. It means that those who picked injury prone players gain an advantage which imo makes a joke of the whole thing.

That's a bit nonsensy.

We picked player based on there time in the Premier League, and there impact on it. Harry Kewell was an injured mess, but on his day (his whole time with leeds) was unbelievably brilliant.
Now this was never fantasy football, Nobody forced you to only pick players who play through the pain. The cup thing is the easiest way to decide this.

I don't think it was ever said to pick a team of premiership players and then at the end we'll have a full league complete with fake "Kewell picked up an injury and will miss the next 6 games"

It's all abit of fun like if you were with a bunch of mates and you did this whole thing the easiest and fairest way is to pair teams off and see who would win.

eagle eye

mayordenis wrote: »

That's a bit nonsensy.

We picked player based on there time in the Premier League, and there impact on it. Harry Kewell was an injured mess, but on his day (his whole time with leeds) was unbelievably brilliant.
Now this was never fantasy football, Nobody forced you to only pick players who play through the pain. The cup thing is the easiest way to decide this.

I don't think it was ever said to pick a team of premiership players and then at the end we'll have a full league complete with fake "Kewell picked up an injury and will miss the next 6 games"

It's all abit of fun like if you were with a bunch of mates and you did this whole thing the easiest and fairest way is to pair teams off and see who would win.

I completely disagree, I think that the fairest way to do it is what was said earlier. We all go and pick the teams in order of how we feel they would do over an entire premiership season. That makes more sense to me, not this cup thing.

Anyways as I said earlier, it was fun picking them but as I've pointed out, when you have people in this thing who don't know some of the players then its ridiculous anyways. If people don't know all the players then they can't make a fair and impartial assessment of all the teams as they are obviously going to pick a team with players they know ahead of a team with players they never heard of.

I'm not criticising the guys that don't remember players either, they had no choice in the matter if they wee only kids. I'm just saying that its a waste of time now either way. But the cup thing is just ludicrous, it means that the likes of Boksic is a great player to have on your team when he really didn't have a major impact on the league due to the length of time he spent injured. He was great when he was fit but he was available for less than half the games during his time at Middlesborugh.

Racing Flat

Was Paul Warhurst picked?