Premiership Player Draft - Discussion Only

mayordenis

Aye Xavi I imagine everyone will be sickened if they miss out on dickov along with kevin davies

Xavi6

I was actually hoping for a frontline of Dickov, Marco Boogers and Brian Deane.


(Dickov will always be a hero for his exploits in 99 though)

Wreck

No Shaun Goater or Niall Quinn Xavi? I'm shocked tbh

Xavi6

Ssssshhhhh!!!!!

genericgoon

The lack of 'Classic' Premiership players is quite shocking atm. Michael Essien is no doubt a great player but for an all-time Premier League first pick, that's quite a leap of faith.

Wreck

Moving along quite nicely now, and with Rasta to pick again next we should get through a few more picks today.

RasTa

Yeah there was another classic player I was going to put in but when you jump from United to Liverpool, well it can't happen.

Trippie

Ugh, decisions decisions, I know i should be strengthing the core of my team but the lure of an outstanding goal scorer is quite high,hmmm..... this may take some time

mayordenis

I'm pretty Delighted to have Pires and Campbell - both class league winners part of the untouchable arsenal side.

Bubs101

Finally somebody picks Owen. In his prime he was certainly better than a good few of the strikers picked already. Think players who were great when they were younger but are still around today as shadows of their former selves will suffer in the draft due to modern perception

Dont be at yourself

True, but I feel Owen, even in his prime, was a very one dimensional player. He's also hugely injury prone, and it can take him ages to hit form when coming back from injury.

And he's a money-hungry twat with no loyalty.

Bubs101

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

True, but I feel Owen, even in his prime, was a very one dimensional player. He's also hugely injury prone, and it can take him ages to hit form when coming back from injury.

And he's a money-hungry twat with no loyalty.

I always thought that injury proneness was utterly irrelevant because you're just picking a first XI that can't be succeptible to injuries.

Also, he was kind of forced out of Pool

Dont be at yourself

Also, he was kind of forced out of Pool

By his agent? Owen wasn't forced out of Liverpool by any means. He had several contract offers on the table for over a year, and he kept dicking the club about. Benitez arrived, lost patience with him and we cut our losses.

Still, a discussion for a different thread, eh?

LuckyLloyd

genericgoon wrote: »

The lack of 'Classic' Premiership players is quite shocking atm. Michael Essien is no doubt a great player but for an all-time Premier League first pick, that's quite a leap of faith.

Well, it shouldn't be. The top teams in the league have been stronger than their counterparts across Europe over the past four years (think about this statement on an overall averaging things out). The Premiership was a relatively weak league during it's first few years and players that destroyed it then would not be as dominant now.

LuckyLloyd

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

And he's a money-hungry twat with no loyalty.

Wash your mouth sir. He owes Liverpool football club and us as Liverpool fans NOTHING.

Trippie

I really am struggling with this 2nd pick,ugh

genericgoon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well, it shouldn't be. The top teams in the league have been stronger than their counterparts across Europe over the past four years (think about this statement on an overall averaging things out). The Premiership was a relatively weak league during it's first few years and players that destroyed it then would not be as dominant now.

On the other hand, that means players didn't have a great deal of quality people to play with back then thus the achievement of those players to shine so brightly may be seen to be because of their far superior skills (relative to what would be world class back then) rather than being a great player made look extraordinary due to being surrounded by many other excellent players.

Bubs101

genericgoon wrote: »

On the other hand, that means players didn't have a great deal of quality people to play with back then thus the achievement of those players to shine so brightly may be seen to be because of their far superior skills (relative to what would be world class back then) rather than being a great player made look extraordinary due to being surrounded by many other excellent players.

I would consider the Serie A of that time to be better than todays Premiership and the top players did have their chance to play against those guys and did poorly. I have no doubt that the standard today is so much higher and has been for the past 5 or 4 years

Trippie

pick made and pm sent

Wreck

Trippie wrote: »

pick made and pm sent

lol at the tune on the youtube video. Love Cesc, and the idea of him and Rooney together is pretty magical.

Trippie

Wreck wrote: »

lol at the tune on the youtube video. Love Cesc, and the idea of him and Rooney together is pretty magical.

the codec's on this pc are fooked so I dont have any sound on youtube clips or "other" clips so iv no idea what the tune is. I would have preferred other players over cesc to pick 2nd but the chance of him and rooney together is pretty sweet if you ask me so I thought it was worth it in the long run

whatawaster

Cesc is a great pick. I would have picked him 6th or 7th. Wonderful player and has been for a few years now.

shoutman

This is getting tough enough now.... but I have whittled it down to a few, my pick should be up within the hour.

Also I'd have Gerard over Fabregas any day, but having them both would have been nice

Wreck

Damn, I was really hoping people might forget about McGrath.

Mr.Nice Guy

Wreck wrote: »

Damn, I was really hoping people might forget about McGrath.

+1

Great pick. I thought me might slip under the radar for a few rounds.

Trippie

Ah McGrath, I was debating putting him in the squad instead of cesc, It was close between him and another centre back but he was going to be my first choice defender if somehow I got lucky enough that he was still available next round

Frisbee

I was hoping I could get Cesc on my second pick. Damn You! Thought he's fly under the radar second round

whatawaster

There is one player i literally cannot believe hasn't been picked yet. And there have been players in his position picked who aren't half the player he was.

Xavi6

I've got one in mind that hasn't gone yet so fingers crossed....

Frisbee

I have 4 or 5 big names I want, but I can nearly guarantee they'll be gone by the time I get my next pick

wardie

I have 1 I really really want but he'll probably be gone too.

Is there a way to keep an updated list of players taken ? Would be really usefuly especailly when getting into the leater tounds to easily see if someone is gone

Xavi6

Yeah I was thinkin that. Maybe after each round the person to post last can do a list of all 24 players picked from that round before they start the next one?

Frisbee

Isnt that what the Excel Spreadsheet is for?

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pk8foo3LvvC0HCBY1Vf1OKw

wardie

Thats exactly what I meant. Who is keeping it uptodate ?

Frisbee

Lucky Lloyd. But he was away over the weekend so hasnt been updated in a few days. It'll be updated soon enough I'm sure

LuckyLloyd

bohsman is back on the clock. He has two picks. Sent him a PM and updated the spreadsheet.

---

Picking Pallister and Bruce is lolbad imo. While they were strong and brave and dominated in the air and at setpieces - they would be cut apart by the pace and technical skill of most premiership attacking forces today.

There are at least seven better center backs available for selection.

Trippie

you updated round 7 as opposed to round 2 on the spreadsheet lloyd

and yes picking pallister and bruce is terrible but you're forgetting jeff is a spurs fan he doesnt know what a good defender looks like.

Bubs101

Trippie wrote: »

and yes picking pallister and bruce is terrible but you're forgetting jeff is a spurs fan he doesnt know what a good defender looks like.

A fit Ledley is better than Pallister.

Having said that, they did play together for years which has to be worth something. For example, considering Carvalho and Ferdinand (for example) have never played together surely Pallister and Bruce would be better

Trippie

Bubs101 wrote: »

A fit Ledley is better than Pallister.

ye but palister is guarenteed to last more than 45 minutes

Having said that, they did play together for years which has to be worth something. For example, considering Carvalho and Ferdinand (for example) have never played together surely Pallister and Bruce would be better

I dont think said pair would work because both are footballing defenders if you get me, each one is the creative defensive player in their respective teams

Melion

Ive done up a list of about 30 players that havent been picked yet. Im hoping to get at least 5 of them, some big names in there that im hoping fall under the radar

shoutman

Definately could of done better Jeff, no bonus points cause they played together, no doubt if Fergie could of gotten better defenders he would have but that just wasn't his priority.

I have two in mind who I was contemplating to choose as my second pick but there is no doubt in my mind that they will be gone when its my turn to pick in round three.

Interesting to see what two Bohsman pick now.

Necronomicon

That's a good idea Melion, I might follow suit. My second pick is still intact, though I expect him to be taken before I'm up again.

ditpoker

now hang on a minute!!!

The success of any football club is often attributed to the goal-scoring exploits of a striker or the creative brilliance of an attacking midfielder and effective defensive work often goes unnoticed. Manchester United experienced an incredible wave of success during the 90's which simply wouldn't have been possible without the dominant centre half pairing of Steve Bruce and Gary Pallister.

As Sir Alex Ferguson takes his side into a new era, Rio Ferdinand and Nemanja Vidic are forging a substantially commanding partnership that has played a fundamental part in United's impressive form over the last couple of seasons. So I pose the question, Bruce and Pallister or Ferdinand and Vidic? Which of these emphatic defensive units are truly the greatest?


Steve Bruce and Gary Pallister

It is difficult to summarise the significant impact that Steve Bruce and Gary Pallister had on Manchester United's categoric domestic dominance of the 90's. The duo possessed all the characteristics of an exceptional defensive partnership and were always reliable in a seven season stint together.

Although Pallister proved a shy figure in front of goal with only 15 to his name at United, his memorable if unspectacular strike against Blackburn Rovers in the 1993 title winning season will always be remembered by United's fans. Bruce on the other hand provided a number of vital goals amongst the 51 he managed in the famous red shirt. Two fantastic headers against Sheffield Wednesday were arguably the pick of the bunch, inspiring United to their first title in 26 years. As well as being deadly in the air, Bruce was lethal from the penalty spot and surprisingly finished as United's joint top goal-scorer in 1991, finding the net a remarkable 19 times.

Despite being consistently excellent for United, 'Dolly and Daisy' were never really sufficiently recognised on the international stage. During an era that included the prominence of central defenders such as Tony Adams, Des Walker and Mark Wright, it was a noticeably challenging time to break into the England set-up. Pallister only earned a mere 22 caps for his country and Bruce's international career failed to launch completely bar captaining the England B team on just the one occasion.

With over 800 appearances for the Red Devils, Pallister and Bruce demonstrated an uncompromising loyalty and dedication. They were inseparable at the heart of the United defence and went on to claim 3 Premiership titles, 2 FA Cups, a League Cup and a European Cup Winners Cup as a partnership.


Rio Ferdinand and Nemanja Vidic

Nemanja Vidic has been instrumental for the Red Devils since joining from Spartak Moscow in the January transfer window of 2006. Despite being a relatively unknown quantity to many United fans, the Serb has successfully cemented his place in the side, forming a formidable partnership with Rio Ferdinand. It is fair to say that Sir Alex raised a few eyebrows with his decision to bring the Serb to Manchester, although numerous convincing performances have delighted the Old Trafford faithful and transformed Vidic into somewhat of a cult hero among the supporters. Vidic's no nonsense style of play have earned many plaudits and after a prolonged period of time United may well have finally filled the gaping hole vacated with the departure of Jaap Stam.

Ferdinand and Vidic complement each other's abilities in sublime fashion. Rio not only displays exceptional defensive qualities, but demonstrates an air of assurance with the ball at his feet and rarely squanders possession easily. Vidic is a brave and bustling central defender with his strength and aerial ability notable weapons in a hugely impressive defensive armoury. The pair are considerably dangerous going forward and will always strive to get on the end of an attacking set-piece.

It is important to note that both have experienced testing times at Old Trafford yet have triumphed through various adversities. The infamous missed drugs test controversy that hampered a portion of Ferdinand's career is long in the past and deserving or not, Rio paid the ultimate price with a lengthy suspension. Vidic hardly came flying out of the blocks when he first joined the club, and with a string of indifferent performances, there were question marks raised as to whether the solid defender would prove a credible signing. Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, it seems preposterous to think that Vidic looked somewhat out of his depth at the preliminary stages of his United career.

With 84 caps between them, Vidic and Ferdinand have a wealth of international experience. Despite not being littered with honours as a partnership, the formidable twosome were instrumental in guiding the Red Devils to the Premiership title of 2006/2007. Both took up a deserved place in the PFA Premier League team of the year and will be undoubtedly influential in United's quest for trophies for many years to come.

The Result

The unprecedented success witnessed by Pallister and Bruce edges this battle of the centre half partnerships for me. Vidic and Ferdinand may triumph in terms of individual talent and ability but the often telepathic understanding of Pallister and Bruce was sensational. It could be argued that the quality of the Premier League has improved drastically since the 90's and it would be interesting to see how the sturdy Pallister and Bruce would cope in the modern era.

United's current central defensive pairing are more than capable of emulating their great predecessors and have aptly proved they are a thriving partnership. To surpass Bruce and Pallister, it is imperative that Vidic stays fit and Ferdinand focused to help United maintain their hunt for silverware.

___________________________________________________

effectively, if we're going to adopt a "well they wouldnt do well in the modern game" b0ll0cks then Pele is sh1t, Maradona is sh1t, etc etc etc... :rolleyes::rolleyes: dont worry lloyd, your viera/desailly partnership will win you a world cup a few years ago, but would be RUBBISH now, given that one is retired! sigh!! :pac:

Trippie

ditpoker wrote: »

____________________
dont worry lloyd, your viera/desailly partnership will win you a world cup a few years ago, but would be RUBBISH now, given that one is retired! sigh!! :pac:

so im not the only one who thinks these will be his first choice picks

Bubs101

Well, for one, didn't the Premiership start in 92 making Bruce's 19 goal a season tally utterly irrelevant. Secondly, Rio probably has more international caps than those two combined in a tougher climate in terms of competition. There were 3 Man Utd central defenders mentioned in the above article who were better than Palister and Bruce

shoutman

This isn't about who has more international caps, its about player v player who is better and which suits the team overall better.

Imo Bruce & Pallister are poor choices for this kind of thing as there are far better players to choose at this stage.

Also they are definately not the dream Premiership centre back pairing, i'm not going to name names but everyone knows what i'm talking about.

Wreck

Someone go poke Bohsman to make sure he's still alive.

Mr.Nice Guy

Why the big fuss over Bruce and Pallister? Both were great defenders and measure up fine with any defensive pairing in Premiership history. I personally would have chosen others, but people are acting like he's gone for McShane and Bramble.

wardie

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

people are acting like he's gone for McShane and Bramble.

Sssshhh, dont give away my secret picks....:D:D

LuckyLloyd

ditpoker wrote: »

Despite being consistently excellent for United, 'Dolly and Daisy' were never really sufficiently recognised on the international stage. During an era that included the prominence of central defenders such as Tony Adams, Des Walker and Mark Wright, it was a noticeably challenging time to break into the England set-up.

effectively, if we're going to adopt a "well they wouldnt do well in the modern game" b0ll0cks then Pele is sh1t, Maradona is sh1t, etc etc etc... :rolleyes::rolleyes: dont worry lloyd, your viera/desailly partnership will win you a world cup a few years ago, but would be RUBBISH now, given that one is retired! sigh!! :pac:

The first paragraph hurts your argument - and is essentially why they are bad picks. Those three defenders were just better players (and aren't even in the top five center backs available!). I have already stated that Bruce and Pallister were courageous players - and I would concede that they played an important role for United during the last years of division one and early years of the premiership.

However:

- Schmeichel behind them;
- Keane and Ince infront of them;
- Irwin alongside them;

helps. That they didn't get into the England team was due to the fact that they were limited players (and Wright and Walker carried some pretty average players don't forget). They handled the meat and potatoes aspect of their roles with aplomb - but their limitations were exposed by real pace and quality. And the real pace and quality of European football did not reside in the English league during the period that Bruce and Pallister played together. As such, they didn't cut it for England and they were shown up in the European Cup on numerous occasions.

Now, the second paragraph I have extracted from your post is a nice strawman sir.

On a global level, the key difference between football now and football 20 years ago is how high the bar has been raised in terms of athletic preparation. If Pele or Maradona were born later they would still be the best in the world - because they would also benefit from the radical advancements available to players in terms of physical preparation. As such, if they played today they would be fitter, faster, stronger just like the opposition - yet still retain an unbridgeable gap as far as their technical ability and speed of thought is concerned.

As far as Pallister and Bruce are concerned though, 15 years later does hurt them - because the gap they enjoyed in the toughness and strength stakes would not be as pronounced today. Whereas, their relative lack of pace would be more apparent. AND, they would face less teams that are playing direct and depending on lofted balls from out wide. Rather, they would spend more time defending against teams that can attack from a variety of angles at pace and with the ball on the deck. Which was the kind of thing that caused them the most problems as a partnership. And in this process, every end team is going to have better offensive capability than the real teams your two defenders faced during their careers.

Finally, any bonus points you get for plucking a long - term partnership are ultimately inconsequential. Nesta and Cannavaro didn't play together at club level; neither did Desailly and Thuram or Desailly and Lebeouf. Yet they were able to turn up every so often and win European Championships or World Cups because great players are able to communicate and work together to get the job done against the very best when the pressure is on. If you had taken any two of the many better center backs available who were more competent players than Bruce or Pallister then you would have secured a better core to your defense.

So Jeff, in short, you have been too clever for your own good. You could have Rio Ferdinand and John Terry playing at the back for you right now - and believe me when I say that they would represent a MUCH better pairing than Pally and Brucie. And while I accept that you put a lot of time typing and formatting such a long defense of your selections - I'm afraid it doesn't stop you being wrong.