Premiership Player Draft - Discussion Only

LuckyLloyd

Updated the spreadsheet there. I've stuck Yorke down as a striker as I assume you would like to play him there, but if you wish to sit him front of the back four a la his World Cup run by all means let me know!!

LuckyLloyd

I think that the first black man to captain the English national side is great value where he has gone. He is essentially the slightly less intense, less ambitious and less consistent version of Roy Keane. However, I would rate him as the fourth best driving central midfield presence available after Keane, Vieira and Gerrard.

During the first three years of the premiership, Ince provided the engine room and driving force behind United's dominance. He destroyed the premiership during that period and was easily the best combative box to box midfielder in the league for those three seasons (Keane and himself in tandem were scary - but Keane would not reach his best until 1998). Some of the debate thus far in this draft has centered on the question of how the premiership shaped up in the early nineties to club football in the rest of Europe and, as such, just how good were it's leading stars of the period. In the case of Ince, there should be no debate. He spent two seasons in Italy at Inter Milan between 1995 and 1997 and thrived in a league considered to be the best in Europe at the time. Additionally, he was a standout performer in the England side that went out in penalties at the semi - final stage during Euro 96.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVcqEf8xFd0&feature=related

Ince was a phenomenal athlete with great stamina, strength and decent pace. He was a fierce competitor who was incredibly robust in challenges for the ball both on the ground and in the air. His supreme energy levels and appetite for hard work helped his teams to win the battle for possession in the majority of games. On top of that, he was capable of spectacular shots from distance and incisive long range passing. Finally, Ince was a spiky influence in the dressing room - more than willing to take the leadership role by word and deed (hence the nickname).

Why isn't he a top five pick then I hear you say? The reality is that Ince didn't win when he returned to Liverpool for two seasons between 1997 - 1999. Liverpool signed Ince to be the leader, to be their Roy Keane and drag the club from a culture of underachievment - but Ince failed to do it. It's not all his fault of course. Ince arrived back to a Liverpool side that lacked steel and depth. The Evans era was about playing nice football and finishing up the table - not about being consistent and grinding out titles. Ince played well during his first season at Liverpool, but tailed off during 1998 - 99 suffering from the disruption of the dual management system and a clash of ideas and personallities with Houllier. Ince was never the Claude Makalele / Didi Hamman type defensive midfielder that Houllier wanted him to be - and it is telling that his best performances in his second and final season at Liverpool came when he removed the positional shackles and went box to box as the driving force.

Ince did put in Keane like performances during his career. Examples would be his astonishing match for England at Rome in November 1997 - or the half of "**** you" football he turned in when dragging Liverpool by the scruff of their necks back from two goals down against Utd in April 1999 (Ince topped off his individual performance by scoring a last minute equalizer in front of the Kop). Or when he gave the dressing room teamtalks and delivered the on pitch example that steered Middlesborough out of danger during Bryan Robson's most hapless period in charge. However overall, Ince was the captain and engine room of teams that failed to deliver. Wheras Keane, Vieira and to a lesser extent Gerrard have been the driving forces of clubs that have won league titles and trophies - and done it numerous times. Ince couldn't produce as much burning intensity as often as Keane - and couldn't force lessor teammates to reach his level when it counted like Keane could. That is why Ince is going this late I think.



Still an awesome player - and one of my favorite players to ever play in the premiership.

Bubs101

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Updated the spreadsheet there. I've stuck Yorke down as a striker as I assume you would like to play him there, but if you wish to sit him front of the back four a la his World Cup run by all means let me know!!

Just a question about this lloyd, saw you put Ronaldo down as a F RLC so does this mean that if I want to play him on the wing ala a 4-5-1/4-3-3 I have to get a winger who's played in the same situation to compliment him on the other side or can i just get a different attacking winger who played before the tactic was introduced

LuckyLloyd

Bubs101 wrote: »

Just a question about this lloyd, saw you put Ronaldo down as a F RLC so does this mean that if I want to play him on the wing ala a 4-5-1/4-3-3 I have to get a winger who's played in the same situation to compliment him on the other side or can i just get a different attacking winger who played before the tactic was introduced

Mmm, I think that's an interesting question. I was just taking into account Ronaldo's flexibility and ability to attack from either side and even through the center on occasion. But yeah, you have raised a good point:

if you want to employ the flexible and fluent tactics currently in use at United or Roma I guess you should lose assessment points if you take a traditional wide man from the first 8 - 10 years in the premiership. Obviously, it is not fair to say that guys who played their careers on the wing in a 4 - 4 - 2 couldn't adapt to extra demands of the newer tactical approach. BUT, you would need to make a case for their ability to transition - as players have to be more versatile and demonstrate a more rounded skillset to thrive in it.

Off the top of my head, I can think of some highly rated wingers yet to be picked who could fit - and some who would struggle in the UTD attack of today.

Bubs101

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Off the top of my head, I can think of some highly rated wingers yet to be picked who could fit - and some who would struggle in the UTD attack of today.

I was thinking more of the old school Mourinho Chelsea attack to be honest. I'm a little reluctant to name names what with my pick being so far away to be honest so I couldn't really give you an example.

Mr.Nice Guy

Pick made. Chuffed to have got him.

wardie

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think that the first black man to captain the English national side is great value where he has gone. He is essentially the slightly less intense, less ambitious and less consistent version of Roy Keane. However, I would rate him as the fourth best driving central midfield presence available after Keane, Vieira and Gerrard.

During the first three years of the premiership, Ince provided the engine room and driving force behind United's dominance. He destroyed the premiership during that period and was easily the best combative box to box midfielder in the league for those three seasons (Keane and himself in tandem were scary - but Keane would not reach his best until 1998). Some of the debate thus far in this draft has centered on the question of how the premiership shaped up in the early nineties to club football in the rest of Europe and, as such, just how good were it's leading stars of the period. In the case of Ince, there should be no debate. He spent two seasons in Italy at Inter Milan between 1995 and 1997 and thrived in a league considered to be the best in Europe at the time. Additionally, he was a standout performer in the England side that went out in penalties at the semi - final stage during Euro 96.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVcqEf8xFd0&feature=related

Ince was a phenomenal athlete with great stamina, strength and decent pace. He was a fierce competitor who was incredibly robust in challenges for the ball both on the ground and in the air. His supreme energy levels and appetite for hard work helped his teams to win the battle for possession in the majority of games. On top of that, he was capable of spectacular shots from distance and incisive long range passing. Finally, Ince was a spiky influence in the dressing room - more than willing to take the leadership role by word and deed (hence the nickname).

Why isn't he a top five pick then I hear you say? The reality is that Ince didn't win when he returned to Liverpool for two seasons between 1997 - 1999. Liverpool signed Ince to be the leader, to be their Roy Keane and drag the club from a culture of underachievment - but Ince failed to do it. It's not all his fault of course. Ince arrived back to a Liverpool side that lacked steel and depth. The Evans era was about playing nice football and finishing up the table - not about being consistent and grinding out titles. Ince played well during his first season at Liverpool, but tailed off during 1998 - 99 suffering from the disruption of the dual management system and a clash of ideas and personallities with Houllier. Ince was never the Claude Makalele / Didi Hamman type defensive midfielder that Houllier wanted him to be - and it is telling that his best performances in his second and final season at Liverpool came when he removed the positional shackles and went box to box as the driving force.

Ince did put in Keane like performances during his career. Examples would be his astonishing match for England at Rome in November 1997 - or the half of "**** you" football he turned in when dragging Liverpool by the scruff of their necks back from two goals down against Utd in April 1999 (Ince topped off his individual performance by scoring a last minute equalizer in front of the Kop). Or when he gave the dressing room teamtalks and delivered the on pitch example that steered Middlesborough out of danger during Bryan Robson's most hapless period in charge. However overall, Ince was the captain and engine room of teams that failed to deliver. Wheras Keane, Vieira and to a lesser extent Gerrard have been the driving forces of clubs that have won league titles and trophies - and done it numerous times. Ince couldn't produce as much burning intensity as often as Keane - and couldn't force lessor teammates to reach his level when it counted like Keane could. That is why Ince is going this late I think.



Still an awesome player - and one of my favorite players to ever play in the premiership.

I rake it you agree with this pick then Lloyd....:D:D

eagle eye

I think Ince is a good pick but I got a better one imo. I am shocked he was still available for selection this far down the list. I'm delighted.

Bubs101

eagle eye wrote: »

I think Ince is a good pick but I got a better one imo. I am shocked he was still available for selection this far down the list. I'm delighted.

I would agree but I think that you need great midfielders around to compliment Makalele whereas Ince would probably be the same with just about anybody

LuckyLloyd

eagle eye wrote: »

I think Ince is a good pick but I got a better one imo. I am shocked he was still available for selection this far down the list. I'm delighted.

I strongly disagree that Makelele is a better pick than Ince. Ince gives you great flexibility going forward; whereas Claude locks you into some manner of 4 - 5 - 1. You got a player who is good as anyone has ever been at a very specific role - but Ince is the more complete player which I believe makes him a better value player at this stage.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Pick made. Chuffed to have got him.

Decent pick. Though, note that a quote praising someone carries little weight when it comes from their own manager!

Mr.Nice Guy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Decent pick. Though, note that a quote praising someone carries little weight when it comes from their own manager!

Surely Fergie wouldn't be biased about one of his own players?

whatawaster

Pick made. I'm shocked he hadn't been picked already. I don't care how s**t my defence will be - with Henry and McManaman we'll always be in with a shout.

Frisbee

Pick made and PM sent!

Wreck

Frisbee wrote: »

Pick made and PM sent!

You have to make another pick first.

Frisbee

Nah I get 2 in a row between rounds 4 and 5!
Rasta starts round 4

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pk8foo3LvvC0HCBY1Vf1OKw

LuckyLloyd

Was hoping people would forget about McManaman.

Frisbee

Wreck wrote: »

Surely that's a mistake, is not supposed to be abbaabbaa...., that would seem to be the fairest?

Yeah thats what it is!
a=me first
b=rasta first
b=rasta first
a=me first
a=me first

abbaa

You are that dancing Queen...
Young and Sweet...

Wreck

Frisbee wrote: »

Yeah thats what it is!
a=me first
b=rasta first
b=rasta first
a=me first
a=me first

abbaa

Dancing Queen...
Young and Sweet...

Yeah just realised after I posted, too tired to think straight:o

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Was hoping people would forget about McManaman.

me too. i've been crossing my fingers all week

curry-muff

Surely everyone was waiting in suspense for Dion Dublin to come out tho :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Frisbee

curry-muff wrote: »

Surely everyone was waiting in suspense for Dion Dublin to come out tho :rolleyes::rolleyes:

What's wrong with Dublin as a pick?

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I strongly disagree that Makelele is a better pick than Ince. Ince gives you great flexibility going forward; whereas Claude locks you into some manner of 4 - 5 - 1. You got a player who is good as anyone has ever been at a very specific role - but Ince is the more complete player which I believe makes him a better value player at this stage.

Ince was a magnificent midfielder during his time at Manchester United, and of course having spent years at Liverpool you would have a liking for the man, as I would with him now Manager of Blackburn Rovers.
However I don't think he ever reached the same heights at Liverpool that he had done before his time in Italy. He was too often very negative with his passing, I remember discussing it with a couple of friends who were Liverpool fans and we all agreed that he was not inventive enough while at Liverpool. He was regularly passing the ball backwards rather than trying to get something going.
Claude Makelele was magnificent at Chelsea, I don't see his inclusion as forcing me into a 4-5-1 formation it gives me a great place to start my moving the ball forward and the perfect man to make sure nobody breaks through the midfield. He played a huge part in Chelsea winning two Premier League titles and he was ultra consistent. I thought long and hard about who I wanted for my second pick, I didn't expect Ince or Makelele to be available but I would have gladly took either, but given preference I would have chosen Makelele.

Idu

God this thing takes an age

Dont be at yourself

For me, the likes of Macherano and Makalele are as much a luxury player as Kaka or Ronaldinho.

Due to their severe limitations going forward, they don't offer enough in a 4-4-2. The Makalele role is designed to free the attacking players in a 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 to attack.

The reason Macherano didn't succeed at West Ham is not because of poor management or training. It's because in a team like West Ham's, he was a luxury. He didn't offer enough going forward and so had a hugely negative impact on their attacking play.

That said, there is no doubting Makalele's abilities in hie position, and he probably would have wound up in my team eventually!

whatawaster

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

For me, the likes of Macherano and Makalele are as much a luxury player as Kaka or Ronaldinho.

Due to their severe limitations going forward, they don't offer enough in a 4-4-2. The Makalele role is designed to free the attacking players in a 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 to attack.

The reason Macherano didn't succeed at West Ham is not because of poor management or training. It's because in a team like West Ham's, he was a luxury. He didn't offer enough going forward and so had a hugely negative impact on their attacking play.

That said, there is no doubting Makalele's abilities in hie position, and he probably would have wound up in my team eventually!

The reason Masherano never succeeded at West Ham is because he never got a chance. He doesn't limit our attacking play in a 442, he actually frees Gerrard to be more effective in attack. I also think he's improved his attacking game a lot in the last year - he makes lots of driving runs forward with the ball, and his passing has definitely come on.
Did you see the Liverpool - United game. 4-4-2 with Mascherano as one of the two CM and we completely dominated the game. And guess who set up the winner?

Mitch Connor

whatawaster wrote: »

The reason Masherano never succeeded at West Ham is because he never got a chance. He doesn't limit our attacking play in a 442, he actually frees Gerrard to be more effective in attack. I also think he's improved his attacking game a lot in the last year - he makes lots of driving runs forward with the ball, and his passing has definitely come on.
Did you see the Liverpool - United game. 4-4-2 with Mascherano as one of the two CM and we completely dominated the game. And guess who set up the winner?

Giggs?

whatawaster

Tauren wrote: »

Giggs?

No. Good guess though.

Trippie

24 hours is up in half an hour or so,mayordenis is on the clock then afaik

RasTa

Just in teh door from Amsterdam, head is a bit cloudy still. Not sure who I'm gonna pick but there won't be much common sense.

Mitch Connor

whatawaster wrote: »

No. Good guess though.

he should get good credit for it though!

Trippie

RasTa wrote: »

Just in teh door from Amsterdam, head is a bit cloudy still. Not sure who I'm gonna pick but there won't be much common sense.

dont forget bonus points for Djimi traore

RasTa

Trippie wrote: »

dont forget bonus points for Djimi traore

I had at least 5 or 6 that I could have put in.... Not sure if that's the right one. Anyway I'll take it

titan18

I was hoping Overmars would fall to me for my next pick

LuckyLloyd

RasTa wrote: »

I had at least 5 or 6 that I could have put in.... Not sure if that's the right one. Anyway I'll take it

solid pick

Frisbee

Just curious what people's takes are on Dublin as a Round 2 pick?
Thought he would be gone well before my second go.

LuckyLloyd

Frisbee wrote: »

Just curious what people's takes are on Dublin as a Round 2 pick?
Thought he would be gone well before my second go.

He's the first player to go who never played for a top four challenging side. At his peak while at Coventry, his goal scoring record was close to elite (i.e. 1 every two games) but his average production dipped when he went to Villa.

I really like Dublin. He was a good honest old school pro who played the game the "right" way and never shorted an employer or the fans. He'll provide you with a target to hit upfront and will threaten even the best of defenses if you can get good delivery from out wide or at setpieces.

However, on the whole, I think this is a huge reach by you. Firstly, there is at least one player available who can give you all of the above but with better athleticism and superior peak seasons . Secondly, I think he would have slipped a couple more rounds. And finally, I am against taking players this early who have limited skillsets and force you to find specific player types later in the game to make them tick. You now have to play a 4 - 4 - 2 and will have to get players who will be suited to a direct and fast paced "get it wide" approach. Otherwise, Dublin will be a hindrance rather than a help.

So, while I like the player I don't like the pick. There is so much unique and flexible talent still available right now which will be gone when you next get a chance to make a selection.

Xavi6

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He's the first player to go who never played for a top four challenging side.

Are you forgetting that played for United? It was brief but he was there. Surely someone who joined the 100 goals club without having a substantial spell at a 'top' club is a great pick?

LuckyLloyd

Xavi6 wrote: »

Are you forgetting that played for United? It was brief but he was there. Surely someone who joined the 100 goals club without having a substantial spell at a 'top' club is a great pick?

He played 12 games for Utd. He can't be a 'great' pick when there are better players in his position still available. It's all relative. From a draft strategy point of view - you could wait another two rounds to get him. Bad value this high.

Iago

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He's the first player to go who never played for a top four challenging side.

le tiss

LuckyLloyd

Iago wrote: »

le tiss

Ah yes, my bad.

Trippie

hmmm, I know who id like to pick but with my next shot not for another 40 or so picks a pick in a more crucial position may be needed.

Trippie

Pick made and pm sent, still unsure about my pic tbh.

redzerdrog

i am sick i am not involved in this, brilliant idea

shoutman

I'm really unsure about my next pick, i have made the decision but I think there may be a few hmmms about it. Doing the write up now.

Dont be at yourself

It's getting tough alright. I've a few different players in mind for all over the park - the question is which position to prioritize.

Trippie

shoutman wrote: »

I'm really unsure about my next pick, i have made the decision but I think there may be a few hmmms about it. Doing the write up now.

Hmmm, my crafty redirection didnt work then I see.

shoutman

I had made my decision before checking the pm Gordon.

And lol that he was ever going to be picked ahead of my one.

Trippie

shoutman wrote: »

I had made my decision before checking the pm Gordon.

And lol that he was ever going to be picked ahead of my one.

ah worth a shot, all i had to do then was angle shoot another 42 picks to be in with a shot of getting him myself, odds were slim that that would happen imo

redzerdrog

good pick shoutman suprised he lasted this long

Dont be at yourself

I don't think Drogba's consistent enough.