Premiership Player Draft - Discussion Only

LuckyLloyd

I actually think Hyppia is a better pick than Carragher. Between 2000 / 01 and 2004 / 05 Hyppia was consistently one of the best defenders - not just in the Premierhsip - but in Europe as a whole. During that period he was underrated.

Carragher is a very good center back, but he has been overrated during his peak. While there is a lot to admire in those last ditch tackles and blocks - they are a product of a defender being a step or two off the pace both physically and mentally. Carragher's determination and bravery closes that gap most of the time. On the other hand, Hyppia never looked as good during his best five seasons because he didn't need to be throwing himself around as much. Additionally, and obviously because of his greater height, Hyppia was much more dominant in the air and at setpieces.

Carragher is definitely the better defender as I type today. Hyppia has declined physically over the past three seasons - which was inevitable as he moves towards his late thirties. But that shouldn't put us off from thinking about the entire careers that players have enjoyed. Given their whole body of work in the premiership - I would have Hyppia on the teamsheet before Carra.

Trippie

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I actually think Hyppia is a better pick than Carragher. Between 2000 / 01 and 2004 / 05 Hyppia was consistently one of the best defenders - not just in the Premierhsip - but in Europe as a whole. During that period he was underrated.

Carragher is a very good center back, but he has been overrated during his peak. While there is a lot to admire in those last ditch tackles and blocks - they are a product of a defender being a step or two off the pace both physically and mentally. Carragher's determination and bravery closes that gap most of the time. On the other hand, Hyppia never looked as good during his best five seasons because he didn't need to be throwing himself around as much. Additionally, and obviously because of his greater height, Hyppia was much more dominant in the air and at setpieces.

Carragher is definitely the better defender as I type today. Hyppia has declined physically over the past three seasons - which was inevitable as he moves towards his late thirties. But that shouldn't put us off from thinking about the entire careers that players have enjoyed. Given their whole body of work in the premiership - I would have Hyppia on the teamsheet before Carra.

.

Iago

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I actually think Hyppia is a better pick than Carragher. Between 2000 / 01 and 2004 / 05 Hyppia was consistently one of the best defenders - not just in the Premierhsip - but in Europe as a whole. During that period he was underrated.

Carragher is a very good center back, but he has been overrated during his peak. While there is a lot to admire in those last ditch tackles and blocks - they are a product of a defender being a step or two off the pace both physically and mentally. Carragher's determination and bravery closes that gap most of the time. On the other hand, Hyppia never looked as good during his best five seasons because he didn't need to be throwing himself around as much. Additionally, and obviously because of his greater height, Hyppia was much more dominant in the air and at setpieces.

Carragher is definitely the better defender as I type today. Hyppia has declined physically over the past three seasons - which was inevitable as he moves towards his late thirties. But that shouldn't put us off from thinking about the entire careers that players have enjoyed. Given their whole body of work in the premiership - I would have Hyppia on the teamsheet before Carra.

I can't say I agree with all of that, but there's truth in at least some of it. Making last ditch tackles and interceptions can be an indication of positional weakness, but it can also show a lot of positional awareness if the defender is covering someone elses mistakes. I think most of the time Carragher has been covering others rather than displaying his weaknesses.

That being said, ultimately I chose Carragher over Hyppia not just on perception of defensive ability but also on the motivational impact of having him in your side. There are some players, I would argue few and far between, that can have the effect of raising the games of others around them through their performances. That "dragging the team up by their shoelaces" effect brought on by the inspiration and never say die attitude shown in everything a player does. Jamie Carragher strikes me as the kind of player who would be giving it everything he had playing pub football on a Sunday if he didn't have the ability to make it at a higher level. That's an attitude that I think is missing from a lot of premier league players, and isn't strong enough in most others. You can't put a price on the value that offers a team imho.

Xavi6

Excellent choice there Eirebear.

bohsman

Was hoping David James would stay available for another while, another good pick.

shoutman

I must say i'm surprised with the David James pick as I feel there are three goalkeepers who produce the miracle saves that he did but who are more consistent.

David James never had a season where he wasn't absolutely at fault for a few goals.

No doubt on his day he is a quality keeper but I think there are other keepers on par with him in that respect but who are more consistent.

Frisbee

shoutman wrote: »

David James never had a season where he wasn't absolutely at fault for a few goals.

I don't think any keeper's ever had a season where he wasn't at fault for a few goals

shoutman

by a few goals I mean a few goals that are just ridiculous, ie. flapping at crosses etc. I'm not saying he is a bad keeper, far from it I jus think there are two available who I would rate higher then James.

Necronomicon

shoutman wrote: »

by a few goals I mean a few goals that are just ridiculous, ie. flapping at crosses etc. I'm not saying he is a bad keeper, far from it I jus think there are two available who I would rate higher then James.

I would struggle to think of any last season, where IMO he was by far the best goalkeeper in the league.

Dont be at yourself

I updated my post to flesh out my reasons for picking the best Brazilian to ever play in the Premiership.

LuckyLloyd

Really good pick. Another player who leaves you wondering what his impact on the league could have been if he was surrounded by a better supporting cast.

Idu

Delighted with my latest pick. Lucky to get him:D

Melion

Lucky bástard, only got his 40th appearance this evening.

eagle eye

I object to the Torres pick. Imo he would have went a lot higher in the draft if he had the appearances at that stage. Therefore he should be excluded as he did not have the necessary appearances when this draft began.

LuckyLloyd

eagle eye wrote: »

I object to the Torres pick. Imo he would have went a lot higher in the draft if he had the appearances at that stage. Therefore he should be excluded as he did not have the necessary appearances when this draft began.

DENIED

I clearly stated the rules before we got going. Still, Torres is easily the worst striker picked so far. Why? Sample size. I contend he will be washed up in three years time. Prove me wrong? You can't.

whatawaster

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

DENIED

I clearly stated the rules before we got going. Still, Torres is easily the worst striker picked so far. Why? Sample size. I contend he will be washed up in three years time. Prove me wrong? You can't.

No, Klinsmann only played 56 games for Spurs and scored just 29 goals. Nobody was calling that a bad pick. Torres has the same number of goals in 40 matches.

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

No, Klinsmann only played 56 games for Spurs and scored just 29 goals. Nobody was calling that a bad pick. Torres has the same number of goals in 40 matches.

I didn't call the Klinsmann pick good!! :pac:

RasTa

Picking Torres is pointless in a all-time premiership draft to be honest. Although I was looking myself!

Bubs101

Really think people are over fearing the Torres pick. He wasn't even top scorer last year. It's not like he's better than a few of the strikers picked in the last few rounds. Dublin maybe but not all of them.

Also Lloyd, this is ridiculous.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I contend he will be washed up in three years time. Prove me wrong? You can't.

Don't think it's fair to make a ridiculous claim like that without any reasoning at all. I assumed the minimum of 40 games was a big enough sample to stop that or else it shouldn't have been there. It's not like the guys who picked Fowler or Hasselbank have to contend with their **** years so why does Torres have to contend with his potential **** ones. Also, McGrath only had one good season in the Premiership, does that make him a terrible pick?

LuckyLloyd

Bubs101 wrote: »

Really think people are over fearing the Torres pick. He wasn't even top scorer last year. It's not like he's better than a few of the strikers picked in the last few rounds. Dublin maybe but not all of them.

Also Lloyd, this is ridiculous.


Don't think it's fair to make a ridiculous claim like that without any reasoning at all. I assumed the minimum of 40 games was a big enough sample to stop that or else it shouldn't have been there. It's not like the guys who picked Fowler or Hasselbank have to contend with their **** years so why does Torres have to contend with his potential **** ones. Also, McGrath only had one good season in the Premiership, does that make him a terrible pick?

Relative value. This pick suggests that in terms of all the players who have played in the premiership, Torres has given the 62nd best contribution. At 24. After 40 games.

Also, it isn't that he will potentially have bad seasons or suffer a drop off in his average strike rate - it's inevitable that he will!! His current average is unsustainable over the long haul. I have the 40 game rule there because we have to end up selecting 264 players. Torres / Klinnsmann > career striker who never got more than 10 goals a season, sure.

The McGrath reference is a bad one here. He played five seasons in the premiership. Winning player of the year in the first of those - and receiving widespread acclaim for his efforts in keeping Derby up in the last of them.

Ultimately, I expected him to go. But this high?

Melion

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Relative value. This pick suggests that in terms of all the players who have played in the premiership, Torres has given the 62nd best contribution. At 24. After 40 games.

Also, it isn't that he will potentially have bad seasons or suffer a drop off in his average strike rate - it's inevitable that he will!! His current average is unsustainable over the long haul. I have the 40 game rule there because we have to end up selecting 264 players. Torres / Klinnsmann > career striker who never got more than 10 goals a season, sure.

Why is it so inevitable that he will have a drop off? There has been nothing in his play last season and this to suggest that. If anything, he looks better this year than last. I would have picked him earlier if i could because i think he would have been a great pick alongside Teddy.

LuckyLloyd

Melion wrote: »

Why is it so inevitable that he will have a drop off? There has been nothing in his play last season and this to suggest that. If anything, he looks better this year than last. I would have picked him earlier if i could because i think he would have been a great pick alongside Teddy.

How many European strikers have maintained goal scoring ratios > 1 in every 2 games for entire careers?

Bubs101

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How many European strikers have maintained goal scoring ratios > 1 in every 2 games for entire careers?

But your not picking somebody for their entire career, your picking them for their prime. The person who picked Owen didn't pick the Newcastle one but the Liverpool one. The guy who picked Hasselbaink picked the Chelsea and Leeds one, not the Charlton one etc. Fernando was great for Athletico before he came, was great for Liverpool last season and was great for Spain in the summer. There's no reason to assume he's going to drop off during his prime.

shoutman

Di canio and Kanchelskis, two wide men who I would of beenhoping would be available to pick when my next pick is up. Obviously was never going to happen.

Xavi6

Fuck you Tauren! He was my pick. Now I have to go think of someone else.

Bubs101

Carvalho is a great pick. He's so different to most of the centre backs in the Premiership and IMO, offers more than Terry

LuckyLloyd

Yeah, I think Carvalho is a cracking pick. Certainly a better player than Carra, Hyppia, Bruce and Pallister. You could probably make an argument that he is the best center back in Prem history tbh. Great value at this stage.

shoutman

Glad to see you left McGrath out of that list Lloyd.
I am surprised Carvalho has gone so late, I think he is another one of those players who everyone knows is good but who at the same time is still underestimated with regards to his importance to Chelski.

ditpoker

can we accept lloyd thinks lloyd knows more than lloyd knows?

Frisbee

Di Canio gone. bastard...

Xavi6

Cudicini is a strange one. Great keeper but can't hold someone content with playing second fiddle in high regard.

There are at least 3 keepers I would have put in instead.

ditpoker

Carvalho and Keown are the best picks (other than my own ) to date. Carvalho is a touch of class and is best current centre back by a long way. john terry is all hype, carvalho is business, even though he has somehow managed to live in london for about 5 years and from what i can tell still has little in the way of spoken english. ps. john terry is class, just not carvalho or woodgate or king standard!

Gonzovision

Xavi6 wrote: »

Cudicini is a strange one. Great keeper but can't hold someone content with playing second fiddle in high regard.

There are at least 3 keepers I would have put in instead.

I agree that he should have moved on a few seasons back but his quality can't be denied. Before Cech arrived I think he was the best keeper in the league.

Bubs101

gonzovision wrote: »

I agree that he should have moved on a few seasons back but his quality can't be denied. Before Cech arrived I think he was the best keeper in the league.

Most Chelsea fans would agree. He's still thought of very highly by us and I would probably argue that when Cech was bought in the first place most fans were a little outraged, Carlo was really really good for us in the two or three seasons before hand and probably played better at his peak than Cech ever has. The only thing that really killed him was a lack of ambition

whatawaster

ditpoker wrote: »

Carvalho and Keown are the best picks (other than my own ) to date. Carvalho is a touch of class and is best current centre back by a long way. john terry is all hype, carvalho is business, even though he has somehow managed to live in london for about 5 years and from what i can tell still has little in the way of spoken english. ps. john terry is class, just not carvalho or woodgate or king standard!

You do like defenders don't you.

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

You do like defenders don't you.

True. Which is funny given that:

A) he seems to be incapable of ranking them competently;
he ceaselessly moans about actually having to play center back on a Saturday;

titan18

The Keown pick was good, he was a very good defender.

ditpoker

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

he ceaselessly moans about actually having to play center back on a Saturday;

why doesnt the gaffer just play me up front???! why lloyd?!?!? WHY!?!?!?

Frisbee

Arjen Robben was on my shortlist, suprised he got this far. while he wasnt involved in the English game long he certainly was a great player in the EPL

Mitch Connor

Frisbee wrote: »

Arjen Robben was on my shortlist, suprised he got this far. while he wasnt involved in the English game long he certainly was a great player in the EPL

I disagree - in his first season he was great. But after he suffered the injury (broken leg or ankle or something wasn't it) he simply wasn't the same player again - didn't take on people as much, didn't get into the goal scoring positions as much. Also, once people started showing him onto his right all the time he lost some of his dynamism, imo.

Overall, he was a good player for chelsea, but not a great one - he didn't last long enough at the top of his form for that imo. Granted, he is still one of the better left sided players, but that doesn't mean he was certainly a great player (at least not for nearly long enough imo)

eirebhoy

Frisbee wrote: »

Arjen Robben was on my shortlist, suprised he got this far. while he wasnt involved in the English game long he certainly was a great player in the EPL

In the PL overall Duff > Robben imo. In fact, when they were both playing together in the same team at peak form under Mourinho Duff was regularly the better of the 2 (I remember looking back on the performances myself and even Mourinho said himself Duff had been his best player when Robben won a potm which was both of them at their very, very peak). Obviously he's been relatively poor since '05 but afaik this is about players at their peak and Duff was consistently brilliant for 5 seasons in the premiership.

I think a lot of us forget how good Duff was. At his best a world class winger with as close control of the ball as anyone I can think of atm bar Messi. If Duff didn't beat his man he was almost always fouled. He just never failed to beat players when he was at his best and from August '03 to December '04 you could probably count the games he wasn't fantastic in on one hand. I used to get really excited about watching Duff in the CL. Chelsea used to play on a different day to Celtic and I'd be looking forward to their game all day. Not to mention his last couple of seasons at Blackburn but I didn't watch him anywhere near as regularly with them.

Lauren, then of Arsenal, said Duff and Giggs are the 2 toughest opponents he ever faced. Stuart Parnaby said a few years ago:
"I'd say Duff is just about the most difficult out-and-out winger you can face in the League. He's that good. It was tough out there."

I think there's many a player that would agree with him.

And finally, an extract from an Independant article:

It is telling that his most cherished games under Ranieri
were the home match against Newcastle and away to Lazio. "That was two
games on the bounce. It was the first time that Claudio kept the same team
all season. They were enjoyable, but there were also lots of others."

Duff was brilliant in those two matches, in which Chelsea scored nine
goals. In Rome, in particular, he was almost unplayable. Indeed, he was
brilliant for most of the first half of last season. When he played,
Chelsea played, and they scored at the same pace as Arsenal. In a team of
stars, opposition managers identified Duff as the danger - "We have to keep
him quiet," said Arsène Wenger.

"And then my shoulder gave way," Duff says, picking up the story, "and that
hampered me for the rest of the season, and the start of this. So that has
been a nightmare." The injury happened on 20 December and was followed by a
tear on his Achilles tendon - and then another fall on his shoulder. Still,
it was not until April that Thierry Henry, regarded as the most effective
goal-provider in the Premiership, as well as its top-scorer, overtook his
total of 15 assists.

If I remember correctly the reason his shoulder went a 2nd time was because Ranieri tried to rush him back for a CL game when he wasn't fully recovered.

Mr.Nice Guy

Tauren wrote: »

I disagree - in his first season he was great. But after he suffered the injury (broken leg or ankle or something wasn't it) he simply wasn't the same player again - didn't take on people as much, didn't get into the goal scoring positions as much. Also, once people started showing him onto his right all the time he lost some of his dynamism, imo.

In his second season he was still dangerous. The great thing about Robben is you could play him on either wing and he'd still be effective. Anyway I get him in his prime as I understand it so how he was in the latter stages of his Chelsea run doesn't really matter right?

Tauren wrote:

Overall, he was a good player for chelsea, but not a great one - he didn't last long enough at the top of his form for that imo. Granted, he is still one of the better left sided players, but that doesn't mean he was certainly a great player (at least not for nearly long enough imo)

The duration of his form isn't the point though. I note you picked Andrei Kanchelskis as your third pick and while it's true to say he played well for a few seasons, I would argue that the standard of the Premiership in his time was inferior to the standard of the Premiership as it was in Robben's time. Thus I'd argue Robben is a better pick than Kanchelskis.

eirebhoy wrote:

In the PL overall Duff > Robben imo

It was always a matter of debate but for me Robben edges him. Look at the stats from their Premiership performances when both were at the height of their powers:

2004/05:

Arjen Robben: 18 appearances, 7 goals
Damien Duff: 30 appearances, 6 goals

2005/06:

Arjen Robben: 28 appearances, 6 goals.
Damien Duff: 28 appearances, 3 goals.

Also, Duff wasn't shortlisted for Premier League awards during his spell like Robben was.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Duff in his peak would be a bad choice, and of course I considered him too, but I went with Robben as I feel he provides that little bit more danger and impact. I don't think there is a better winger available at this point in the game.

whatawaster

Pick made and pm sent.

Oddly enough i was torn for a while between Duff and Robben for my next pick. But i'd settled on Damo anyway. Bigger Sample size as Lloyd would say

shoutman

Ban please for next person who mentions player who has not yet been picked!

Come on people FFS!

whatawaster

shoutman wrote: »

Ban please for next person who mentions player who has not yet been picked!

Come on people FFS!

no harm, i was going to pick him anyway

shoutman

Just for future reference, still some players getting under the radar and hoping that no one will accidently mention them.

Bubs101

Irrelevant argument really, Joe Cole > Robben and Cole

whatawaster

Bubs101 wrote: »

Irrelevant argument really, Joe Cole > Robben and Cole

both Duff and Robben at there best were better than Joe Cole's ever been. He's never fulfilled his talent.

Mitch Connor

whatawaster wrote: »

both Duff and Robben at there best were better than Joe Cole's ever been. He's never fulfilled his talent.

Nah - At times last season, and the season before, Cole was fantastic. utterly fantastic - standing out and lasting in a superstar team, a team that felt they could do without both Duff and Robben

Mitch Connor

also this is bugging me.

In the initial rules it states a player will be judged over his time in the prem, and prem only. It does not say we get to pick and chose the period of their prem play we judge them on. There are a number of players who have had a fantastic season and then been average after. If you pick one of these players can you base it only on the season they were fantastic and ignore the rest?