Measuring the areas for exempt Class 1 and Class 3 developments.

Carlow52

There are 2 schools of opinions on how the areas for the above are arrived at:

Ons school is that the Class 3 (25 sqm ) area is measured internally. The other school is that it is measured externally: what is described as the gross footprint at ground level.

Simillarly with the 40 sqm: is it internal or external.

I thought I saw a post on this before but cant find it.
Would be obliged for any pointers.
Thanks

smashey

We use the internal measurements.

sydthebeat

according to the planning regs 2001....


“gross floor space” means the area ascertained
by the internal measurement of the floor space
on each floor of a building (including internal
walls and partitions), disregarding any floor
space provided for the parking of vehicles by
persons occupying or using the building or
buildings where such floor space is incidental
to the primary purpose of the building;"

muffler

What Syd said

Carlow52

Thanks for the replys:

Site inspection Friday on foot of a complaint about a 'garden shed' that is 24.5 sqm internal, in back garden.

She measured externally: Stated that it is in breach of the Class 3 exemption: no discussion: showed her the DOE leaflet [PL5]: no interest: showed architect letter advising the 25 sqm: she suggested suing architect for wrong information:).

The argument hinges on her interpretation of 'total area' in the section below is externally calculated. The fact that it does not mention floor area, in her opinion, means it must be external, or as stated in the act: except where the context otherwise requires ]

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#partii

CLASS 3
The construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any tent, awning, shade or other object, greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other similar structure.
1. No such structure shall be constructed, erected or placed forward of the front wall of a house.
2. The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres.

muffler

What you can to do now is either (a) apply for a declaration of exemption and advise that in the event that they still deem it to be development that you intend to both appeal it to ABP and take the matter up with the Ombudsman's office or

(b) have a trawl through their planning web site and look for precedent on the matter by way of finding applications for retention of domestic works and see how the floor areas were calculated, fees paid and applications processed and permission granted. If you can show that they granted a permission based on fees being paid calculated on the "internal" floor area then you have them.

If its any help Part D of the DoE's memorandum for making an application for a Floor Area Compliance Certificate states:

16. The total floor area of a house (see para 2.3) is its gross floor area measured inside the finished external walls and excluding the areas specified in paragraph 16.2 below. The following shall be included in calculating the total floor area of the house:

(i) all internal walls, partitions, chimney breasts and the stairwell on each floor;

(ii) all areas within the external walls which are capable of being converted into habitable space, even if there is not direct access from them to the dwelling, irrespective of their state of finish;

(iii) areas that could be described as “utility room”, “workshop”, “lobby”, “store”, “office”, etc.;

(iv) areas behind mock walls or partitions where sufficient height exists to provide a room;

(v) areas where flooring has been temporarily omitted;

(vi) closed glazed porches or conservatories; and

(vii) any rooms or areas of rooms which do not meet the required ceiling heights (see para. 9.2)

RKQ

There is only ONE school - as stated above ALL areas are meassured Internally...

Why ask a question if you can not accept the correct answer?

Carlow52 you refer to "SHE" a number of times!
Who is she? What is her expertise?

All areas are normally meassured internally, gross refering the the whole area contained within the external wall, as stated in Planning Law, as used by Department of Environment ( First time buyers grant ) etc.

You should apply for a declaration of exemption or PM me, I will meassure it and if its under the area I issue a Certificate if appropiate - I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is. Its black and white.

Its all crystal clear......:)

Mellor

The only time that i've came accross external measurement being used is site coverage.

sydthebeat

Carlow52 wrote: »

Thanks for the replys:

Site inspection Friday on foot of a complaint about a 'garden shed' that is 24.5 sqm internal, in back garden.

She measured externally: Stated that it is in breach of the Class 3 exemption: no discussion: showed her the DOE leaflet [PL5]: no interest: showed architect letter advising the 25 sqm: she suggested suing architect for wrong information:).

The argument hinges on her interpretation of 'total area' in the section below is externally calculated. The fact that it does not mention floor area, in her opinion, means it must be external, or as stated in the act: except where the context otherwise requires ]

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#partii

CLASS 3
The construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any tent, awning, shade or other object, greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other similar structure.
1. No such structure shall be constructed, erected or placed forward of the front wall of a house.
2. The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres.

carlow.....

whomever 'she' is... shes completely incorrect.

muffler has given you two suggestions as to a course of action....
but if you give us a better idication as to who 'she' is we may be able to advise better....

is she an official of building control?? and official of the enforcement section?? your own architect / engineer??

what are the exact internal measurements??

Carlow52

Thanks for the replies, the advice and the offers of help. Much appreciated.

The individual is from the enforcement section of a local authority. I will be back when we get the promised written follow-up to the the site inspection.
This letter is expected to set out the options available to my client.

On the issue of the 25 sq m and its total area limit 'within the curtilage' as described below, I presume that this summation applies only to items added after the original construction process and that it does NOT include a garage built and sold with the house when new.

CLASS 3
The construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any tent, awning, shade or other object, greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other similar structure.
1. No such structure shall be constructed, erected or placed forward of the front wall of a house.
2. The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres.

muffler

Im not sure I fully understand. Are you saying that there was or is a garage already located on the property prior to the structure you are referring to?

This was never mentioned in your other posts.

Poor Uncle Tom

The 25 sqm is measured internally, as stated quite clearly above, but that 25 sqm is the cumulative total of all such developments within the curtilage of the dwelling site whether granted planning permission or considered to be exempted development.

Mellor

Lads, I think the OP means there was a garage, built with the house as new.
This would of been part of the house planning and does not affect the 25m exemption

RKQ

I share mufflers confusion, as there was any mention of other garages.
I agree with uncle tom - once the original house is built then its cumulative (otherwise people would build 2, 3, 4 or 5 "garages" all under 25sqm!)

I think we need to know the exeact details, numbers of buildings on site etc.

It would be in a grey area if say the garage was attached to the house, then a new 2nd garage was built in the rear garden. This 2nd garage was under 25sqm internally. ( The property would look strange with two garage doors!:D)

Then it might be argued that the attached garage is to be converted to a room ( door changed to window would require planning - conversion is exempt ) After which the 2nd garage will be the only garage and will then be exempt.

Carlow52

Mellor wrote: »

Lads, I think the OP means there was a garage, built with the house as new.
This would of been part of the house planning and does not affect the 25m exemption

Correct: Thanks Mellor.

[Sorry for any confusion: I asked it because having spent a great deal of time looking at ABP decisions, it seems that in one case (that is more complex than mine that) the inspector included the 'from day one' garage (as clarified by Mellor above) in the cumulative 25 sq m.]

Anyhow the letter arrived today. The structure is in breach of the Class 3 exemption and my client has been given 2 weeks to explain what he intends doing about it. Happy days

There is anecdotal evidence that the Planning Authority in question here is unique in its interpretation of using the external measurements.

While looking for ideas: this brought a smile: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/derbyshire/7715908.stm

Thanks again for the ideas/advice/suggestions:)

muffler

Carlow52 wrote: »

this brought a smile: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/derbyshire/7715908.stm

Brings a whole new meaning to: "Cant see the wood for the trees"

Carlow52

Just an update.

had discussions with the Dept of Environ [D of E]. Most of you probably already know what follows.

The planning leaflets such as PL5 and all its siblings are for information only and have no legal standing.

The Planning Regs/Laws/etc are 'composed' by D of E and implemented by the LA's and ABP.

La's are free to interpret the Regs/Law/etc as they see fit and if you have a problem you go to ABP.

Will be back when more progress has been made.

RKQ

Carlow52 wrote: »

The planning leaflets such as PL5 and all its siblings are for information only and have no legal standing.

La's are free to interpret the Regs/Law/etc as they see fit and if you have a problem you go to ABP.

Thanks Carlow52 - this statement has huge implications, as a number of other threads will show! (Even if its abit of a cop out)

I find it strange that the Department of the Envirnoment were not more help, as their very own method for meassuing areas for the old "First time grant" were meassuring the whole area within the inner leaf of external walls!

Their current method for meassuring "Floor Area Certificates" is whole area within the inner leaf of external walls! Which is exactly the same as for the old "First time grants".
I can't see how the Deptment of the Envirnoment can justify saying "La's are free to interpret the Regs/Law/etc as they see fit"

What a waste of ABP time... Why have standards if "others" can interpret them differently?
Keep us updated.

No6

I think muffler hit the nail on the head in his post on the last page. Inform the LA in question that you are going to appy for a declaration of exemption on the grounds that the internal area is less than 25m² and that if it is turned down you will refer to matter to An Board Pleanala to decide. Sometimes you have got to challange Local Authorities when you think they are incorrect. Good Luck and keep us informed.

sinnerboy

No6 wrote: »

Sometimes you have got to challange Local Authorities when you think they are incorrect.

I Have done - and won . More than once .

Poor Uncle Tom

No6 wrote: »

Sometimes you have got to challange Local Authorities when you think they are incorrect.

Quite right, and reminding them of precedents already set also works wonders.:)

muffler

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Quite right, and reminding them of precedents already set also works wonders.:)

It does indeed and thats why I posted this earlier:

(b) have a trawl through their planning web site and look for precedent on the matter by way of finding applications for retention of domestic works and see how the floor areas were calculated, fees paid and applications processed and permission granted. If you can show that they granted a permission based on fees being paid calculated on the "internal" floor area then you have them.

Poor Uncle Tom

Very Good,
Great minds......fools......and all that.

muffler

make that brilliant minds

Carlow52

Just to close this off:

1: thanks for all the ideas and moral support

2: the final outcome is that, purely on a concessionary, one off, no precedent being set basis etc etc, and as we relied heavily on PL5 etc , the case is closed, and no further action required by us.

3: PL 5 is wrong in terms of the impression it gives re internal area!

4: I now know of 3 LA's who have adopted the idea that the 25 is calculated on a gross, ie external, including wall, basis.

5: hence the subject line: it depends where you are.


Thanks again and have a Happy Christmas

RKQ

Carlow52 wrote: »

4: I now know of 3 LA's who have adopted the idea that the 25 is calculated on a gross, ie external, including wall, basis.

Dear Santa please give me the oppertunity to fight this / these Councils "opinion" on Gross floor area in a Court of Law! I will be a good boy next year!

Thanks for the update Carlow52, if you know of 3 Councils using the wrong method IMO to meassure gross floor area, then can I assume the other 23 County Councils are doing it correctly, like the Department of the Environment?

Am I correct to asume, the Council says you are meassuring the area "incorrectly" yet for some unknown reason the Council are not going to persue the matter?
If a complaint is made in writing, the Council must investigate it. This is very strange.

Sounds like they don't want to loose face ( meassuring gross area incorrectly):D