Prostitution

Dragan

panda100 wrote: »

Male prostitition and female prostitution are not really comparable, unless theres hundreds of Eastern European men being trafficked into the country that I dont know about............

Roughly between 100,000 and 170,000 males will be moved across borders against there will every year. About 50% of those will be minors.

Granted the majority of them will end up as forced labour, child soldiers or else just a happy life in slavery.

I am unsure of the percentage that end up forced into the sex trade but the simple fact is that it does happen.

That is still a lot of people to dimiss.

Since when did human rights issue become about gender, and not about people?

Macha

panda100, while I would say that while there is a far greater number of female prostitutes than male, there are still significant numbers of male prostitutes, particularly among children.

In a way, they are more hidden than female prostitutes because they are associated with homosexuality and thus are subject to two types of stigma.

Alarums

taconnol wrote: »

And please don't respond with the myth that any woman can go out and get any guy she wants to sleep with her-it just isn't true.

It may not be true that women can get absolutely any guy she wants to sleep with her, but it is true that women can go out and get casual sex much more easily than men. Men would be much more willing to lower their standards when out just to have a chance of getting laid.

Dragan

Alarums wrote: »

It may not be true that women can get absolutely any guy she wants to sleep with her, but it is true that women can go out and get casual sex much more easily than men. Men would be much more willing to lower their standards when out just to have a chance of getting laid.

LoL, so men, in general, will happily lower their standards and are weak willed?

Jesus, i feel a lot of pity for these "men" that get talked about on boards.

Really.

Macha

It was a genuine question to try and understand why there are so many more men that visit prostitutes than women. Is it that some men feel too much responsibility attached to sex with a non-prostitute and that a prostitute represents the ultimate no-strings attached sex? And do most women not have these feelings because most of them feel that biologically sex will always be associated with responsibility for them (ie being left holding the baby)? (note: I said "feel", not that it's necessarily true)

I mean most reasons that are commonly given for men visiting prostitutes are reasons that could equally apply to women, yet the difference is huge, although tbh I have no figures to back that up.

Dragan

taconnol wrote: »

It was a genuine question to try and understand why there are so many more men that visit prostitutes than women. Is it that some men feel too much responsibility attached to sex with a non-prostitute and that a prostitute represents the ultimate no-strings attached sex? And do most women not have these feelings because most of them feel that biologically sex will always be associated with responsibility for them (ie being left holding the baby)? (note: I said "feel", not that it's necessarily true)

I mean most reasons that are commonly given for men visiting prostitutes are reasons that could equally apply to women, yet the difference is huge, although tbh I have no figures to back that up.

Personally i think there is a difference in numbers, but i don't think it is as huge as people think.

In all seriousness i was asked once would i like to be a male prostitute. The guy who asked me was a mate and it turned out this is what he did to supplement his income. He made good money from it too. I remember being taken aback at the time but hell, i guess someone has to do the job, right?

This dude would normally end up with women who earned good money, who were not bad looking, who had a large degree of the success they were looking for, they just had no real interest in relationships at the time, playing the game in bars at the weekend or messing around. They just wanted sex.

He told me about one evening he met a client and they went for dinner. They were meeting 2 of the clients female friends and my mate was introduced as "mine for the night".

I think trying to find the reasons why people might go to a prostitute are way too many and varied, and i think they will always be coloured by the persons attitude towards it, much the same as everyone else.

I have no real issue with what two happily consenting adults to between each other, so i guess i would tend to look at the no strings sex argument.

Someone who hated prostitution may associate it with desperation, inability to connect , control issues etc.

Really, it's like asking someone why they avail of any other service, too varied and complicated to be broken down into one easily identifiable stereotype.

Alarums

Dragan wrote: »

Personally i think there is a difference in numbers, but i don't think it is as huge as people think.

The difference in numbers is huge. It may not be politically correct to say this in an age where we must pretend that men and women are identical in thoughts and feelings, but the reason that there are way more prostitutes catering to men rather than women is a biological difference. Many men feel an urgent, eager, unambiguous physical desire for sexual release of any kind. Thats why there are more prostitutes for men, more strip clubs for men (look at the difference in how men react to female striipers compared to womens reactions to male strippers) and lap dancing clubs for men. Where is the female equivalent?

Macha

Really, that's insane! I don't know how I'd react if someone asked if I wanted to become a prostitute...The closest I got was a guy asked me for directions to a strip club on Leeson St. I was polite and pointed him in the right direction, then he asked "How do you know, do you work there?". I was speechless - and that doesn't happen very often

Just on the motivations for clients: I'm sure the reasons are very varied but psychologists have interviewed hundreds of male clients. Having read quite a few transcripts of interviews as research (ahem..), a lot of them seem to have issues with responsibility, control, power, relationship with their mother..it just seems to keep coming up. Although I wouldn't go as far as to say all clients inherently have something wrong with them.

It's a shame the same research hasn't been done with female clients.

AARRRGH

There's a lot of nonsense being spoken in this thread. I know a few people in the prostitution industry and have worked with prostitutes for about six years. Below are my thoughts on this matter.

1. Prostitution is not illegal:

Soliciting on the street, advertising prostitution and managing prostitution are illegal. Everything else is legal. This means you can work from your own home as a prostitute legally in Ireland.

Also, our prostitution laws only apply to sexual intercourse, i.e. penetrative vaginal sex.


2. Sex trafficking is extremely rare in Ireland:

I'll accept every now and then some kind of sex trafficking happens in Ireland (e.g. every decade or so) but apart from that we do not have a sex trafficking problem in Ireland. As the Gardai say, the sex industry is a well run industry in Ireland - too many people are making too much money for there to be infighting, and there are plenty of women who want to be prostitutes. Also, the type of people who run brothels are nothing like the type of people involved in the drugs industry.

There is a right-wing Catholic organisation in Ireland called "Ruhama". They are considered a pest by the Gardai and sex workers. They operate a really slick PR machine constantly releasing made up stories to the media and other "human rights" organisations. Of course, the uninformed average Joe believes what they read.

Nearly every sex trafficking story in the media is invented by Ruhama. The Gardai have been unable to verify any of their stories.


3. Prostitutes choose to do their job:

All the prostitutes I know are doing their job by choice. I have asked them do they know anyone doing it not by choice and they say no. None of them like their job, but the obscene amount of money they make (thousands per week) makes the job tolerable.

Yes, it is possible they originally had money problems so decided to become a prostitute, but that was a choice, and they continue working as prostitutes by choice.


4. Prostitution is not immoral:

Consensual sex between a man and woman is not immoral. Whether or not money changes hands is irrelevant if everyone involved is in consensus.


5. Not everyone is like you:

Just because you wouldn't like to be a prostitute doesn't mean everyone in the world thinks like you. There are lots of people who don't associate negative thoughts with sex so are willing to use their sexuality to make money. We are all different, and it is wrong to think things like sexual arousal and an “open” attitude to sex are bad.

Bah!

Macha

Alarums wrote: »

The difference in numbers is huge. It may not be politically correct to say this in an age where we must pretend that men and women are identical in thoughts and feelings, but the reason that there are way more prostitutes catering to men rather than women is a biological difference. Many men feel an urgent, eager, unambiguous physical desire for sexual release of any kind. Thats why there are more prostitutes for men, more strip clubs for men (look at the difference in how men react to female striipers compared to womens reactions to male strippers) and lap dancing clubs for men. Where is the female equivalent?

Actually Alarums, there was a study done in Sweden in 1998 (Mansson) that showed that the majority of male clients had already had numerous sexual partners and this finding contradicts the popular idea in which the client is a “lonely” man motivated by “sexual needs.”

Dragan

Alarums wrote: »

The difference in numbers is huge.

With all due respect, i offered an opinion, you have offered a fact.

A few lines of theory does not back up that fact. So either their are numbers out there, or there are not?:)

You have any links to data on this?

faceman

Whether or not prostitution is legal or not wont change the fact it will always be there. Therefore society needs to taken a responsible approach as to how we should manage prostitution.

the media when they run a story on the whole thing, often reference some irish website that advertises prostitutes under the cosy title of "escorts". Anytime the prostitutes are interviewed, they never give any impression of having been smuggled, have any drug addictions etc etc. It suggests to me that in many cases its not even a case of "they need the money", but rather they earn alot more cash from it than they would in a 9 to 5 job.

I would rather see it legalised for the reason that it could offer protection for those involved, eliminate dodgy pimps, and would be an added tax taker for the government.

I would though be keen to ensure that the publicity surrounding how prostitutes advertise etc is monitored strictly. After all we dont want our kids reading ads for "Juicy Lucy fulfilling all your naughty schoolgirl desires" in the back of the RTE Guide.

AS for the moral element, well its not up to us to judge whether a girl makes that choice if she is not under duress and if some bloke, married or not, choses to see her, well thats his choice too.

Its religion that originally brought the moral code in surrounding it. Not all religions or non religions have an issue with paying for sex.

As for the question about it being degrading to women, well thats a matter of opinion. Its no more degrading than girls and blokes who go out at the weekend to clubs, pubs etc and have one night stands. You could argue that single mothers as the result of one night stands are as degrading to women as prostitutes!

Macha

faceman wrote: »

Its religion that originally brought the moral code in surrounding it. Not all religions or non religions have an issue with paying for sex.

This isn't quite true. Society introduces taboos around sexuality, among other things, with the aim of ensuring that the sexual rules are followed. For example, incest has always been a taboo because it means that younger family members can be safe in their own homes and not feel threatened by older family members. Some argue that incest is also a taboo because of the danger of a resultant child being genetically disadvantaged, although I'm not sure whether that fear is well founded.

I don't have moral issues with prostitution, I'm a consequentialist and one of the consequences of the prostitution trade is human trafficking and child abuse. The legalisation of prostitution has been shown to improve matters, but not eradicate them entirely. If legalisation of prostitution could be proven to remove these elements, I would be the first person up campaigning for it.

Dragan

taconnol wrote: »

I don't have moral issues with prostitution, I'm a consequentialist and one of the consequences of the prostitution trade is human trafficking and child abuse. The legalisation of prostitution has been shown to improve matters, but not eradicate them entirely. If legalisation of prostitution could be proven to remove these elements, I would be the first person up campaigning for it.

Ah yes, but as long as their is a product, and a desire, there will always be illegal supply. Just like booze and smokes, dvd players and cars.

Surely if legislation of anything can be shown to improve a situation, and although it might not eradicate it, then it should be considered?

Macha

Oh yes, I totally agree. Actually, it has been discussions like this on boards that have changed my mind on the legalisation of prostitution.

The problem is when the illegally trafficked items aren't DVDs but humans. It would help if we had decent human trafficking laws in Ireland and proper facilities to deal with vulnerable individuals. As it stands, hundreds of children go missing from HSE care every year - to where and to what?

Alarums

Dragan wrote: »

With all due respect, i offered an opinion, you have offered a fact.

A few lines of theory does not back up that fact. So either their are numbers out there, or there are not?:)

You have any links to data on this?

Apologies. What I said was also just my opinion.

Galvasean

taconnol wrote: »

The problem is when the illegally trafficked items aren't DVDs but humans. It would help if we had decent human trafficking laws in Ireland and proper facilities to deal with vulnerable individuals.

Indeed. If prostitution (IMO) is seen as a taboo subject it will be harder for laws regarding it to be implemented. Making prostitution more of a legitimate practice (ala Amsterdam) would lessen demand for shadier underground dealings.
If dealing with matters linked to prostitution was more commonplace a better system to deal with crimes associated with it could be created.

taconnol wrote: »

As it stands, hundreds of children go missing from HSE care every year - to where and to what?

Hundreds? Surely that has to be an exaggeration? I mean Madeline McCann went missing and the media hullabaloo is still strong to this day. Surely the media would make more of an issue of such a thing?

Macha

Galvasean wrote: »

Indeed. If prostitution (IMO) is seen as a taboo subject it will be harder for laws regarding it to be implemented. Making prostitution more of a legitimate practice (ala Amsterdam) would lessen demand for shadier underground dealings.
If dealing with matters linked to prostitution was more commonplace a better system to deal with crimes associated with it could be created.

Totally agree.

Galvasean wrote: »

Hundreds? Surely that has to be an exaggeration? I mean Madeline McCann went missing and the media hullabaloo is still strong to this day. Surely the media would make more of an issue of such a thing?

Madeline McCann was the white, blonde, cute daughter of a wealthy upper-class English couple. That's why she hit the headlines and her parents have spent millions keeping her there. The kids that go missing from the HSE are often orphans or have been separated from their parents. They are often from African migrant, lower-class families.

Sorry I read one stat, but didn't read the whole sentence! So it said that last year the HSE stated that 441 children went missing from its care..and then I didn't see the part after that said: *between 2000 and 2007*. So it works out at 63 kids a year, more than one migrant child per week with no public outcry.

And here we have the story of a Nigerian girl who is believed to be trafficked here for the prostitution trade:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0910/1220919678635.html