Remembrance Sunday = PoPpY DaY

LordSutch

Yes folks its that time of the year again – a time to Remember – a time to reflect – a time to wear a Poppy - (& if you live in Ireland) a time to forget all those who died in past conflicts, a time for confusion – a time for Political division - a time to pretend past generations didn’t fall on the PoPpY fields of Flanders & in the trenches of two World Wars & beyond.

This letter was in the ‘Irish Times’ (Monday 6th/Oct).

“Remembrance Sunday” Now that Irish society generally recognises and commemorates the Irish men and women who gave their lives in the two World Wars and other conflicts, would it not be appropriate for the Roman Catholic Church to do likewise at Masses on Remembrance Sunday next Month? – Yours etc . . .

“So why don’t Irish people (Protestants aside) not wear the Poppy as a mark of respect on or around Armistice Sunday”? considering the large number of Irish men (RC & CoI) who died in the two World Wars?

The older I get the more I realise just how fragile & how short life really is, & just how many Irish men gave their lives and died in those Two World Wars, & yet many of us refuse to wear the Poppy to Commerate all those who never came home & died on the PoPpY fields.

In the first World War Fifty thousand Irish men died in the field of battle, & in the second World War Twenty Thousand Irish men died in battle, which adds up to a total of Seventy Thousand (approx) Irish men who gave their lives in the two World Wars ~ and yet many Irish folk still refuse to wear the PoPpY, even though so many of our own Grandads & Great Grandads died on the Somme or on the Normandy beaches or elsewhere in Europe!

I wear my Poppy with pride on the streets of Dublin at this time every year, & I just think it’s a sad reflection on Irish society that so few mark the week, bearing in mind that so many of the Great War & WWII descendents must be walking our City streets today!

So I wonder are many of us oblivious? or do we not care what our ancestors did?

Latchy

I think people do care .I also think we are coming to a period when they wont care who does wear it or not .It will cease to be a point of issue and will be worn as much as the lilly symbol is on easter sunday rising rememberence .

luckat

I don't wear a poppy and i don't wear a lily, for the same reason: their symbolism is not remembering the fallen, but something quite different.

LordSutch

Please Clarify ...........

Tabnabs

I have family who died in WW1. I think it is extremely laudable to encourage the people of Ireland to remember their war dead. However, please don't force any symbol down my throat. I choose to remember my family throughout the year. Not on some token day which means nothing to my family. My great great uncle died in Flanders, for him the eleventh hour came too late...

LordSutch

Dyflin wrote: »

I have family who died in WW1. I think it is extremely laudable to encourage the people of Ireland to remember their war dead. However, please don't force any symbol down my throat. I choose to remember my family throughout the year. Not on some token day which means nothing to my family. My great great uncle died in Flanders, for him the eleventh hour came too late...

Sorry Dyflin (No forcing intended), but for several generations it has been a tradition that only the Protestant Churches & their Congregations wear Poppies, even though they are/were in the minority, while the majority of Irish men who died on the PoPpY fields were Roman Catholic!

I am just posing the questiion "Why so few Poppies" worn in the Republic?

Latchy

Camelot wrote: »

I am just posing the questiion "Why so few Poppies" worn in the Republic?

Because it's a british symbol which is remembering the dead of the great war while another little war against british occupation was being fought in ireland at same time .That's the main and simple reason the poppy was not worn in ireland .But times are changing .

LordSutch

Ah Ha, but this is where you are totally wrong latchyco .....................

Fifty Thousand IRISH Men died in the Great War, but can you tell me how many died in the rising (1916)?

And as regards the Poppy being a 'British Symbol' I am afriad you are totally incorrect, because all funds collected through the sale of Poppies in the Republic of Ireland go towards the Irish PoPpY Appeal Fund for (Irish War veterans or their Widows).

A Dub in Glasgo

The idea of decoupling Armistice Day , the red poppy and later Remembrance Day from their military culture dates back to 1926, just a few years after the British Legion was persuaded to try using the red poppy as a fundraising tool in Britain.

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html

Latchy

Camelot wrote: »

Ah Ha, but this is where you are totally wrong latchyco .....................

Thirty Five thousand IRISH Men died in the Great War 1914-1918, can you tell me how many died in the rising (1916)?

That has nothing to do with my last post were i simply stated that while the great war was taken place in europe ,another one was going on over in ireland against british occupation ,nothing at all or mention about irish statistics and casualitys of either conflict .

And as regards being a 'British Symbol' I am afriad you are totally incorrect, because all funds collected through the sale of Poppies in the Republic of Ireland go towards the Irish PoPpY Appeal Fund for (Irish War veterans or their Widows)

Yes but it's originally a british symbol of british war dead ,of which a % will be men from north and south of ireland .I was aware of the irish poppy appeal .I am more familier with the british one through livin g in UK

TOMASJ

Irish people have died in wars the world over 'Spain America ect and as we have the easter lilly for remembrance of Irish dead, why should there be a need to wear only the symbol of wars fought on behalf of the British and not other country's.

luckyfrank

I dont see peter robinson or ian paisley wearing shamrocks on paddys day do you ?

Point is the poppy whether right or wrong is seeing by many irish people as a very british unionist symbol

Latchy

I think you will find that various associations remember other conflicts of which irish people fought and died but perhaps on a smaller scale that does not make headlines like poppy days / memorial sundays .The american civil war memorials will attract many irish americans in america but nothing except goverment permission to stop anybody celerbrating it or or irish involved conflicts in ireland either .I know some korea/ vietnam veterns who on ocassions lay a wreath at a memorial in tipparary to the irishmen who fought and died in that conflict

Serenity Now!

And between 1939 and 1945 the country's government hypocritically sat on its hands yet enjoyed what the Allied victory over the Axis nations delivered to them after the war. Lets not even get started on the letter of condolence to the German Embassy by deValera upon the news of Hitler's death or the paltry number of wartime refugees the country allowed upon its shores.

A Dub in Glasgo

A much more appropriate way of remembering the sheer butchery and stupidity of WW1 is to watch Blackadder Goes Forth

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ba-64h6d6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZvI3_q0n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REpLvjDcM1E

Latchy

The last over the Top scene in black adder was very ant- war

luckyfrank

Serenity Now! wrote: »

And between 1939 and 1945 the country's government hypocritically sat on its hands yet enjoyed what the Allied victory over the Axis nations delivered to them after the war. Lets not even get started on the letter of condolence to the German Embassy by deValera upon the news of Hitler's death or the paltry number of wartime refugees the country allowed upon its shores.

We both know the irish goverment gave special treatment to the british during WW2 its use of its ports and returning of soldiers while there german counterparts were kept in internment camps until after the war

We were netrual but we bent it for britain

Serenity Now!

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

A much more appropriate way of remembering the sheer butchery and stupidity of WW1 is to watch Blackadder Goes Forth

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ba-64h6d6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZvI3_q0n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REpLvjDcM1E

Or watch the ultra-satirical 'Oh What A Lovely War!'

brianthebard

Oh dear this again.

latchyco wrote: »

That has nothing to do with my last post were i simply stated that while the great war was taken place in europe ,another one was going on over in ireland against british occupation ,nothing at all or mention about irish statistics and casualitys of either conflict .

Yes but it's originally a british symbol of british war dead ,of which a % will be men from north and south of ireland .I was aware of the irish poppy appeal .I am more familier with the british one through livin g in UK

No, no its not, that's factually incorrect.

http://www.abcteach.com/MonthtoMonth/Holidays/poppy_a.pdf

http://www.rsa.org.nz/remem/poppy_sig.html

Used by an American woman as a symbol of remembrance after the war it was taken up by the French as a badge that could be used for fund raising.

Mint Sauce

tbh, i dont even think i have seen poppys on sale here in the lead up to rememberence sunday

LordSutch

luckyfrank wrote: »

We both know the irish goverment gave special treatment to the british during WW2 its use of its ports and returning of soldiers while there german counterparts were kept in internment camps until after the war

We were netrual but we bent it for Britain

And we supplied (willingly) tens of thousands of Irish Men to help conquer Hitler - some returned - many thousands did not return - so for them (and my Grand Father who died in the Great War 1916) I wear the PoPpY as a mark of respect, and also to remember the futility of War.

Poppies are available on the streets of Dublin prior to the 11th/Nov - they are also readily available in all Protestant Churches on the 11th/ or nearest Sunday - all procedes go towards the Irish PoPpY Appeal Fund for Irish War veterans (or their widows) in the Republic of Ireland only.

Amazotheamazing

Wasn't there briefly a green poppy being worn by Irish people?

I would probably only wear one to upset the ultra nationalists, though it's a good cause, I don't bother with wearing shamrock much either.

i71jskz5xu42pb

Camelot wrote: »

I wear the PoPpY as a mark of respect, and also to remember the futility of War.

More power to you. I'll never wear a Poppy (or spell it PoPpY???) for the same reason I'd never wear an Easter Lilly - they are symbols whose meanings have been hijacked and sullied.

Serenity Now!

luckyfrank wrote: »

We both know the irish goverment gave special treatment to the british during WW2 its use of its ports and returning of soldiers while there german counterparts were kept in internment camps until after the war

We were netrual but we bent it for britain

Bugger all. Two ports in the northwest, an airfield for another neutral country and what else?
Ireland was 'neutral' but "bent it" for no-one but themselves and still do.
Yet to remember the thousands who volunteered to fight that war (with the British military) expect nothing but disdain and over the top condemnation from certain quarters in the country.

I never really knew much about the 'Emergency' until I saw a Cathal O'Shannon documentary on TV. An eye opener to say the least. Then I started reading some of the authors' whose work was used in that programme (Dermot Keogh, Ferriter - guy who writes for The Examiner, Robert Kee).

Tabnabs

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

A much more appropriate way of remembering the sheer butchery and stupidity of WW1 is to watch Blackadder Goes Forth

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ba-64h6d6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZvI3_q0n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REpLvjDcM1E

Try reading 'All Quiet on the Western Front' (German: Im Westen nichts Neues). First printed in the late 20s and a harrowing account of life in the trenches. Far more poignant than any BBC sitcom...

LordSutch

In relation to Post#23, I have told you that the procedes of the Irish Poppy Appeal Fund are for Irish War veterans & their widows only, I cant add any more really The symbol is certainly not sullied - unless for some reason you discount the memory of those tens of thousands of Irish Men who never came Home!

Latchy

Dyflin wrote: »

Try reading 'All Quiet on the Western Front' (German: Im Westen nichts Neues). First printed in the late 20s and a harrowing account of life in the trenches. Far more poignant than any BBC sitcom...

The original film of the book is also worth seeing .They made a hollywood sequil a few years back but havent seen it .

I trhink the black adder (sitcom) scene were they go over the top is memoriable for it's black humor about the absurdities of war and that war in particular

Camelot wrote: »

In relation to Post#23, I have told you that the procedes of the Irish Poppy Appeal Fund are for Irish War veterans & their widows only, I cant add any more really The symbol is certainly not sullied - unless for some reason you discount the memory of those tens of thousands of Irish Men who never came Home!

Indeed but irish or british poppy for that matter it is to remember all men, irish and british alike who fought and died together .

brianthebard

latchyco wrote: »

The original film of the book is also worth seeing .They made a hollywood sequil a few years back but havent seen it .

I trhink the black adder (sitcom) scene were they go over the top is memoriable for it's black humor about the absurdities of war and that war in particular


Indeed but irish or british poppy for that matter it is to remember all men, irish and british alike who fought and died together .

Why do you feel it is a bad thing to commemorate the lives of men who fell in a war that was not their doing? Its not a statement in support of war, its showing solidarity with the men who died for a pointless cause, telling them that their lives were not in vain. How much do you actually know about the poppy and how much is tied to "poppy British-british bad,grrr"? Despite my links to actual facts on the the poppy symbols origins you seem intent on labelling it a british symbol. Why is that?

i71jskz5xu42pb

Camelot wrote: »

In relation to Post#23, I have told you that the procedes of the Irish Poppy Appeal Fund are for Irish War veterans & their widows only, I cant add any more really

Does not matter where the money is going. If I was out selling swastikas for blind puppy dogs I doubt I'd get many sales. That's because the symbol is what people see and wear.

Camelot wrote: »

The symbol is certainly not sullied - unless for some reason you discount the memory of those tens of thousands of Irish Men who never came Home!

You've a tenuous grasp of logic there - I doubt that the poppy communicates its original message so that implies I disrespect the people who went to war?

Ask most people what they associate the poppy and Easter lilly with and they'll tell you the British army and the the shinners respectively. Sullied symbols in my opinion.

gurramok

This poppy issue has been debated to death before(see threads in run-up to previous Nov 11th commemorations)

I'll restate what i said before. Those thousands who signed up in WW1 including my grandfather did not fight for Britain out of loyalty but for securing Home Rule for Ireland as a gateway to freedom as well as a way out of poverty.

For WW2, the latter option was available for those too poor.

The poppy has been hijacked by the ultra-unionist lobby over decades and do not represent a host of nationalities who died in Belgium in WW1, the likes of the French for example.

Of course, its about time the Irish govt had a remembrance ceremony to remember all Irish men who had fallen no matter what army they were enlisted under.

gandalf

Serenity Now! wrote: »

And between 1939 and 1945 the country's government hypocritically sat on its hands yet enjoyed what the Allied victory over the Axis nations delivered to them after the war. Lets not even get started on the letter of condolence to the German Embassy by deValera upon the news of Hitler's death or the paltry number of wartime refugees the country allowed upon its shores.

Given that the country had undergone a rising, a war of independence and a civil war I think that De Valera was to be commended for keeping the republic out of World War 2. It's one of the few things that I believe he did right.

He made a major gaff with the letter of condolence but then again the full extend of what the Nazi's perpetrated was not clear at that stage.

As for the poppy issue I would consider it a pro war symbol even if its not intended as one. I went to a Protestant Secondary School and I would not condemn someone if they wanted to wear one especially if members of their own family fell in either of those conflicts. I have the same feeling towards the lily as well.

Unfortunately in this country both North and South symbols that are supposed to represent something good and honourable are normally hijacked for the purposes of triumphalism of one type or another.