Remembrance Sunday = PoPpY DaY

Serenity Now!

Mad Finn wrote: »

Now now. Gandalf said the full extent of what the Nazis were up to was not known by de Valera at the outbreak of the war. You pointed out that the Nuremberg Laws were well known at the time. Go back and read your post.

The implication is, that one should have known that putting laws like that on the statute book must have given anybody a pretty clear indication of the intentions of the regime.

I merely pointed out that many US states, like about half, had on their statute books at the outbreak of war laws which forbade sex or marriage between whites and people of other races. Especially blacks. Some of these laws had been inherited from the 17th century. Some had been updated in the 20th century

My point is, if the existence of such discriminatory laws were such clear evidence in themselves of the malevolent intent of a regime, how come America didn't come under closer scrutiny? I rather suspect that the existence of such horrible laws in "the world's greatest democracy" gave respectability to similar laws elsewhere

Repeating your point doesn't make it any more valid.

Mad Finn wrote: »

Well stamp my foot as well! I said I was curious as to how he came by that figure because I have done my own researches, relying on a little more than Google and Wikipedia, and I have come up with a vastly different figure.

Instead of enlightening me with Mr Carlyon's methods, though what an Australian writer is doing conducting a forensic examination of Irish numbers at Gallipoli I don't know, you assume that I get all my info from Wikipedia.

I have conducted an independent first hand research into the number of men killed in Gallipoli while serving with Irish regiments. I have not completed it yet, because it is painstaking. So far I have come up with 2,282 such men, split between the Royal Dublin, Munster, Inniskilling and Irish Fusiliers, the Royal Irish Rifles, the Royal Irish Regiment, the Leinster Regiment and the Connaught Rangers.

That is not teh final figure, although it is close. I would be very surprised if the total exceeds 2,500.

Again, not all of these men were Irish. But then, this methodology of counting fatalities in Irish regiments and giving that number as Ireland;s war dead is the one followed by the Islandbridge memorial. I reckon about 70% were, but that's rule of thumb. So I stick to my estimate, and it is an estimate, of about 2000 Irishmen killed at Gallipoli, give or take.

Now tell me whatCarlyon's method was or else take back that vile slur that I rely exclusively on Google and Wikipedia.

You claim extensive research has been undertaken on Gallipoli and havent read the book I mentioned?? You seem to know he is Aussie though (I didn't - How did you find that out? ). Maybe if you read the book, you'd find out his "method" and list of references? Have fun............

Latchy

Every irish person will have their own slant on irish history as handed down to them by family and what they picked up at scool college and university ,specialy in the early part of the 20th century such as the 1916 rising ,the war of independence and civil civil .The history as taught to my generation by the christain brothers at primary school was a combination of republicanism of the isolated island / de velera / conservative kind ,but never aluded to the biigger picture of WW1 or WW2 .

Irishmen have always joined the british army and still do today but on a lesser scale .Politics or sense of histroy will i would imagine play litttle or no part in their decision to do .

The do because they have the choice ,they can and want to .Just like wearing a poppy is freedom of choice .

getz

poppy day is about remembering your dead a lot of irish men died to give europe the freedom we have now, many irishmen won the VC-but lachyco has hit the nail on the head by saying the education system in the republic was under a anti/british religious order even now some schools will not except {as seen}british sports-and they ignore the fact that 280,000 irishmen went to war and many died-so do we forget them and turn our backs --not me, put on your poppy and be counted

TOMASJ

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-not me, put on your poppy and be counted

[/quote]
What do you mean stand up and be counted, who's going to be counting and why would anyone bother with eccentrics wanting noticed.

Heroditas

getz wrote: »

not me, put on your poppy and be counted

Will you also mourn the Irish dead in July? On the official Irish day of remembrance? Why the need to adopt a foreign day of remembrance when we have our own?

Mad Finn

Serenity Now! wrote: »

You claim extensive research has been undertaken on Gallipoli and havent read the book I mentioned?? You seem to know he is Aussie though (I didn't - How did you find that out? ). ..........

You haven't read it either, have you? The fact that he's Australian is pretty obvious from any of the reviews of his book on Amazon.

MarchDub

McArmalite wrote: »

Nothing could be more about engaging " in the cult fo blood and sacrifice " than by wearing a poppy.

I agree completely with you on this point. The bloodbath that was WWI resulted in over 20 million deaths. Think of the human misery involved in this.

Incomprehensibly, WW II resulted in over 70 million deaths. Why on earth would anyone claim that repeated commemorating and celebrating these events not be engaging in a promotion of war and all its miseries? And that is before we even get into the botched politics that resulted in these pointless wars.

Latchy

MarchDub wrote: »

I agree completely with you on this point. The bloodbath that was WWI resulted in over 20 million deaths. Think of the human misery involved in this.

Exactly .

Incomprehensibly, WW II resulted in over 70 million deaths. Why on earth would anyone claim that repeated commemorating and celebrating these events not be engaging in a promotion of war and all its miseries? And that is before we even get into the botched politics that resulted in these pointless wars.

No it's not a celebration .How could you celebrate 70 million deaths ? It's to remember those who died .The fact that quite a lot died in vein is all the more reason to remember them .They might be millions in figures but each and ever one has a name.How could you not want to remember them is the question ?

MarchDub

latchyco wrote: »

Exactly .

No it's not a celebration .How could you celebrate 70 million deaths ? It's to remember those who died .The fact that quite a lot died in vein is all the more reason to remember them .They might be millions in figures but each and ever one has a name.How could you not want to remember them is the question ?

The commemoration deeply implies the heroic aspects of the deaths - never have I seen mention of the horror of how they died and the utter uselessness of it all. Both wars were attempts at shoring up the old imperialist powers - don't even try to say that they were anything else.

Maybe we should celebrate the fact that the combined cost of both wars ended the old corrupt colonial empires and brought in a new world order. But is it better? The danger of this constant "heroic" aspect of war commemoration is that it psychs everyone up for more of the same. And that, is the point of much of it.

Serenity Now!

Mad Finn wrote: »

You haven't read it either, have you? The fact that he's Australian is pretty obvious from any of the reviews of his book on Amazon.

Of course, I've read it......which is why I mentioned it in the first place :rolleyes:

LordSutch

Fionnanc wrote: »

I'll wear the poppy. 50 thousand Irishmen died in WW1, many more served. The Irish volunteers had 100,000 members in Ireland in 1916. Of these at most 1,500 took part in the Easter rising. Most of these came out on the basis of a forged order. So a minority in a minority launced the Easter Rising, decieving their fellow members, while many more IRishmen served in the British army as volunteers. A minority in a minority launched a doomed uprisiing by deception, killing thousands and destroying Dublin, when the majority of Irish people were supporting Britain because the constitutional campaign for home rule had succeeded.

Very well said Fionnanc, I could'nt have put it better myself.

MarchDub

Fionnanc wrote: »

I'll wear the poppy. 50 thousand Irishmen died in WW1, many more served. The Irish volunteers had 100,000 members in Ireland in 1916. Of these at most 1,500 took part in the Easter rising. Most of these came out on the basis of a forged order. So a minority in a minority launced the Easter Rising, decieving their fellow members, while many more IRishmen served in the British army as volunteers. A minority in a minority launched a doomed uprisiing by deception, killing thousands and destroying Dublin, when the majority of Irish people were supporting Britain because the constitutional campaign for home rule had succeeded.
.?

If you are going to quote history - get it right. The Irish rebels did not "kill thousands" - most of the hundreds of deaths were the result of British Army reaction. Within a day of the Rising the Brits had 35,000 troops on the Dublin streets running amok.

As for "destroying Dublin" most of the destruction was also done by the British most especially by the gunboat Helga. A gunboat for Gods sake, to put down a few rebels. Oh all that sounds like an equal fight - and still the few Irish held them at bay for days. Be proud - I am.

Voipjunkie

Fionnanc wrote: »

I'll wear the poppy. 50 thousand Irishmen died in WW1, many more served. The Irish volunteers had 100,000 members in Ireland in 1916. Of these at most 1,500 took part in the Easter rising. Most of these came out on the basis of a forged order. So a minority in a minority launced the Easter Rising, decieving their fellow members, while many more IRishmen served in the British army as volunteers. A minority in a minority launched a doomed uprisiing by deception, killing thousands and destroying Dublin, when the majority of Irish people were supporting Britain because the constitutional campaign for home rule had succeeded.

The leaders of the Eastern Rising gloried in the cult fo blood and sacrifice for the nation. Their movement had many similarities to the later Freikorps and Blackshirts and if successful in their uprising would have been willing allies to fascism.

Maybe somebody has links concerning Pearse's relationships with boys in his school?

The difference for me is that those who died in WW1 wasted their life in a senseless war that had nothing to do with them

Whilst those who fought in 1916 and after fought on behalf of the Irish people
and thanks to them we achieved at least partial independence.

BTW who smashed the blueshirts in Ireland?

And a link like this perhaps

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0925/1222207741238.html

Of course you would probably prefer some some revisionist crap written 100 years after the school opened and not referring to anyone actually educated in St Endas whilst Pearse was there.

MarchDub

Voipjunkie wrote: »

The difference for me is that those who died in WW1 wasted their life in a senseless war that had nothing to do with them

Whilst those who fought in 1916 and after fought on behalf of the Irish people
and thanks to them we achieved at least partial independence...

Of course you would probably prefer some some revisionist crap written 100 years after the school opened and not referring to anyone actually educated in St Endas whilst Pearse was there.

You say it right voip...the same historical revisionist pseudo-diachronic crap was founded around the notion of a Europe in denial about national boundaries and with allegiance only to major corporations - the same crowd which now gives us a seriously broken economy.

The problem I have with the poppies and all the other symbols of these horrendous wars is that they mask the real crime of war - the same European super powers of the past which wrecked destruction on so many small defenseless nations throughout their various empires are now front and centre in the "new Europe" as economic and social leaders. And it is very much in their interests to re-write history and tell us that it all never really happened.

LordSutch

Voipjunkie wrote: »

The difference for me is that those who died in WW1 wasted their life in a senseless war that had nothing to do with them. Whilst those who fought in 1916 and after fought on behalf of the Irish people and thanks to them we achieved at least partial independence.

Ouch, I dunno how many times 50,000 IRISH WAR DEAD in the First World War has been said in this Thread, but for you to say casually "The difference for me is that those who died in WW1 wasted their life in a senseless war that had nothing to do with them" is really quite amazing, so you are actually saying "so what if they died in a ditch"? "Who cares"? "Their lives were wasted anyway"?

So even though 50,000 Irish men were slaughtered 1914-1918 in the Great War you just dont care? but you do respect the one hundred? or two hundred? Rebels who died in the rising .............. :cool:

Mad Finn

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Of course, I've read it......which is why I mentioned it in the first place :rolleyes:

Well you should be able to find the reference you mentioned to 4,000 Irish dead then. I saw that book in a shop today and there is no reference in the index to Irish soldiers or Ireland. There are plenty individual references to the Irish units that served there but having looked through several I could see no reference to that figure.

So I would appreciate if you could point me to where he says it. I don't particularly want to read through an entire volume from start to finish, just to find one piece of info.

Like I said, I am trying to research from primary sources the number of Irishmen who died there. My current estimate, which may well change, is about 2,000. I would be very interested to know how he arrived at 4.000.

Voipjunkie

Camelot wrote: »

Ouch, I dunno how many times 50,000 IRISH WAR DEAD in the First World War has been said in this Thread, but for you to say casually "The difference for me is that those who died in WW1 wasted their life in a senseless war that had nothing to do with them" is really quite amazing, so you are actually saying "so what if they died in a ditch"? "Who cares"? "Their lives were wasted anyway"?

So even though 50,000 Irish men were slaughtered 1914-1918 in the Great War you just dont care? but you do respect the one hundred? or two hundred? Rebels who died in the rising .............. :cool:

I'm saying i have no interest in celebrating or glorifying the complete waste of life that is the first world war.
It served no purpose was not for any greater good it was a battle between various colonial powers for supremacy and Ireland ( and Irish people) as a colony of one of those powers should have had no hand act or part in it.
Whilst on a personal level one might feel sympathy for individuals who misguidedly for whatever reason ended up dying in this bloodbath I do not see any reason to wear a symbol that suggests I agree with imperialism or colonialism or in some way "honour" their sacrifice.
Just as I would have absolutely no interest in remembering any misguided Irish person who would go off and fight and die in Iraq today

On the other hand I have absolute respect for those that fought and died for their own country and who gave their lives so that us the future generations could have a chance to live in our own free country.

As the song says
"Oh, had they died by Pearse's side or fought with Cathal Brugha"

Unfortunately these people chose the wrong army and the wrong war.

LordSutch

Voipjunkie wrote: »

I'm saying i have no interest in celebrating or glorifying the complete waste of life that is the first world war.

And neither do I - but I do stay silent for one minute to Remember the sad loss of so many . . . . . .

Voipjunkie wrote: »

It served no purpose was not for any greater good it was a battle between various colonial powers for supremacy and Ireland ( and Irish people) as a colony of one of those powers should have had no hand act or part in it.

Colonies German Colonies Irish Colonies anyway > Getting back to reality, it turned out to be the 'First World War' when Fifty Thoiusand Irish Men died ..............

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Whilst on a personal level one might feel sympathy for individuals who misguidedly for whatever reason ended up dying in this bloodbath I do not see any reason to wear a symbol that suggests I agree with imperialism or colonialism or in some way "honour" their sacrifice. Just as I would have absolutely no interest in remembering any misguided Irish person who would go off and fight and die in Iraq today.

Sod em all - all 50,000 of the old Irish gits!

Voipjunkie wrote: »

On the other hand I have absolute respect for those that fought and died for their own country and who gave their lives so that us the future generations could have a chance to live in our own free country.

Good for you Matey, & I presume you refer to the 50 Thousand Irish Men who died saving us from the Germans in the Great War?

Poccington

Voipjunkie wrote: »

I'm saying i have no interest in celebrating or glorifying the complete waste of life that is the first world war.

Many could argue that the Rising was a complete waste of life since as a military action it was a complete shambles and the Rising itself achieved nothing.


I personally shall be wearing a poppy as I had a relative that served in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and died during the Battle Of The Somme.

Voipjunkie

Camelot wrote: »

And neither do I - but I do stay silent for one minute to Remember the sad loss of so many . . . . . .

That is your choice

I presume you also stay silent for a minute at Easter to remember the sad loss of so many Irish lives in the fight for liberation.

Do you also stay silent to remember the dead IRA volunteers from 1968 to 1997 I presume you don't because to do so would in some way suggest that you had some sympathy with their course of action.

That is exactly why I don't wear a poppy or hold a minutes silence because in some way it suggests that I have some sympathy with their Wars and I don't.

Camelot wrote: »

Colonies German Colonies Irish Colonies anyway > Getting back to reality, it turned out to be the 'First World War' when Fifty Thoiusand Irish Men died ..............

Getting back to YOUR reality I presume you mean

Your confused

http://www.answers.com/topic/colonialism

The acquisition and colonization by a nation of other territories and their peoples. In this respect, colonialism is as old as society. The term took on a more specific meaning in the late nineteenth century when colonists saw it as the extension of ‘civilization’ from Europe to the ‘inferior’ peoples of ‘backward’ societies. It may also be seen as a search for raw materials, new markets, and new fields of investment. Sometimes, but not always, colonialism was accompanied by colonization; that is, the physical settling of people from the imperial country. Typical aspects of colonialism include: racial and cultural inequality between ruling and subject people, political and legal domination by the imperial power, and exploitation of the subject people. Many commentators see colonialism as a key cause of uneven development.

Lets see does any of that fit Ireland? YES it did

I presume you also are aware that Belgium,France,Italy, Portugal and Germany were also colonial powers as such the First world war was a war between European colonial powers.

Camelot wrote: »

Sod em all - all 50,000 of the old Irish gits!

They joined a foreign army and fought in a war that had nothing to do with them and was completely pointless anyway. I wouldn't say sod them but I would not rush out to honour them either. I mean some of the people like General Tom Barry used the knowledge and experience they had gained to great effect in later years but I would not respect anything General Barry did whilst he was in the British Army.
Its a great pity that so many Irish people died fighting for Britain instead of against them but that's the choice they made.

Camelot wrote: »

Good for you Matey, & I presume you refer to the 50 Thousand Irish Men who died saving us from the Germans in the Great War?

By US do you mean Britain because they did not save Ireland from anything unfortunately.

Voipjunkie

Poccington wrote: »

Many could argue that the Rising was a complete waste of life since as a military action it was a complete shambles and the Rising itself achieved nothing.


I personally shall be wearing a poppy as I had a relative that served in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and died during the Battle Of The Somme.

They could argue that the world is flat but it does not make it so

I also have relatives that fought and died in World War 1 but I won't be wearing any poppy

LordSutch

Voipjunkie wrote: »

That is your choice

I presume you also stay silent for a minute at Easter to remember the sad loss of so many Irish lives in the fight for liberation.

The thing about Remembrance Day is that it has evolved over the decades into much more than just remembering the Somme or WWII, & seeing as 1916 is so muddled and mixed in the Irish context then 'Yes'
I would remember those of all colours who died in 1916, both at the Somme & in Dublin (from both sides)!

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Do you also stay silent to remember the dead IRA volunteers from 1968 to 1997 I presume you don't because to do so would in some way suggest that you had some sympathy with their course of action.

Now you are taking the mickey - Not a chance in hell :mad:

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Getting back to YOUR reality I presume you mean

Your confused

http://www.answers.com/topic/colonialism

Dunno who wrote that stuff, but it talks about Colonialism within Colonialism, Political Colonialism, Colonialism within the British Isles, Portuguise Colonialism, Dutch, etc, etc, etc which presumably means that Ireland is also an ex Scandinavian Colony, Cornwall is an English Colony, & the outer Hebridies are Scottish Colonies, and Scicily is an Italian Colony - deary me

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Lets see does any of that fit Ireland? YES it did

I presume you also are aware that Belgium,France,Italy, Portugal and Germany were also colonial powers as such the First world war was a war between European colonial powers.

Which means? Ireland offered up 250K Men - & 50 thousand were killed (the ones you dont care about)!

Voipjunkie wrote: »

They joined a foreign army and fought in a war that had nothing to do with them and was completely pointless anyway. I wouldn't say sod them but I would not rush out to honour them either. I mean some of the people like General Tom Barry used the knowledge and experience they had gained to great effect in later years but I would not respect anything General Barry did whilst he was in the British Army.
Its a great pity that so many Irish people died fighting for Britain instead of against them but that's the choice they made.

Foreign Army me Bum - They didnt join a 'foreign Army' Voipjunkie- they joined the British Army!

madden1

Good for you Matey, & I presume you refer to the 50 Thousand Irish Men who died saving us from the Germans in the Great War?

I do feel sad about the Thousands of Irish Men who died fighting for the British, , but you must understand these Irish solders were fighting for a foreign country and could be referred to as mercenaries for the brits "there only loyalty was to money" not as some posters would have us believe Germany about to invading Ireland,
After all we had worse in Ireland around that time "The Black and Tans" now who in Ireland could forget them.

purplefish

high im new here so i hope you will forgive me for jumping into what is obviously a contentiuse issue.
I am british and have lived here for about six years,i cant help noticing that a lot of posters are proscribing some fairly esoteric (nationalist, imperialist,political) reasons as to why the poppy is worn by my fellow countryman and many around the world.
I have to tell you that the wearing of the poppy at home is quite simple. it is about respect, and rememberance. I have never met anyone who thought beyond that or who proposed a more nationalistic or even Imperialist (not something that even comes up) view.
At home i was c/e so here i go to the c/i. and i was pleased to be able to get a poppy through that chanell. If you want to to deride the poppy as a British symbal then you should at least view it within the context that the british hold it, if you view it as we do as a symbol of imense sacrifice both past and for the injured survivors pressent, then i do not see why it should be offensive.
wear whatever symbal suits you but dont overanalise the reasoning of the rest of us, not everyone is making a great statement. in most cases its a very simple and worthy one
on a further note the money raised is well used and as far as i know non political.

Poccington

madden1 wrote: »

I do feel sad about the Thousands of Irish Men who died fighting for the British, , but you must understand these Irish solders were fighting for a foreign country and could be referred to as mercenaries for the brits "there only loyalty was to money" not as some posters would have us believe Germany about to invading Ireland,
After all we had worse in Ireland around that time "The Black and Tans" now who in Ireland could forget them.

Mercenaries? A large portion of Irish soldiers that served and died in the Great War did so as they believed that it would help us gain Home Rule. Then there was those that went over in defence of another small nations freedom. You all harp on about "Oh those mean Brits invaded us" yet when it happens another small country and some Irishmen decide to go over and do their part to free that nation, their sacrifice is not worth honouring.

To even mention those men in the same sentence as mercenaries is a disgrace.

LordSutch

purplefish wrote: »

I have to tell you that the wearing of the poppy at home is quite simple. it is about respect, and rememberance. I have never met anyone who thought beyond that or who proposed a more nationalistic or even Imperialist (not something that even comes up) view. on a further note the money raised is well used and as far as i know non political.

Well said purplefish, my thoughts exactly.

Voipjunkie

Camelot wrote: »

Now you are taking the mickey - Not a chance in hell :mad:

That is the nub of the issue wearing a poppy does not just commemorate the dead from World War 1 it commemorates all British war dead and just as it would horrify you to be in anyway associated with the provisional IRA it horrifies me to be in anyway associated with Britain's colonial war crimes around the world.

Voipjunkie

Poccington wrote: »

Mercenaries? A large portion of Irish soldiers that served and died in the Great War did so as they believed that it would help us gain Home Rule. Then there was those that went over in defence of another small nations freedom. You all harp on about "Oh those mean Brits invaded us" yet when it happens another small country and some Irishmen decide to go over and do their part to free that nation, their sacrifice is not worth honouring.

To even mention those men in the same sentence as mercenaries is a disgrace.

Look you can not dissect the reasons why people went to fight in the British Army and wear a poppy because just to remember those who may have misguidedly gone with noble intentions.
Just as someone said earlier you could not wear a swastika and say it was to commemorate the Nazi attempts to destroy Stalinism without also associating yourself with everything that symbol stands for.

Voipjunkie

purplefish wrote: »

high im new here so i hope you will forgive me for jumping into what is obviously a contentiuse issue.
I am british and have lived here for about six years,i cant help noticing that a lot of posters are proscribing some fairly esoteric (nationalist, imperialist,political) reasons as to why the poppy is worn by my fellow countryman and many around the world.
I have to tell you that the wearing of the poppy at home is quite simple. it is about respect, and rememberance. I have never met anyone who thought beyond that or who proposed a more nationalistic or even Imperialist (not something that even comes up) view.
At home i was c/e so here i go to the c/i. and i was pleased to be able to get a poppy through that chanell. If you want to to deride the poppy as a British symbal then you should at least view it within the context that the british hold it, if you view it as we do as a symbol of imense sacrifice both past and for the injured survivors pressent, then i do not see why it should be offensive.
wear whatever symbal suits you but dont overanalise the reasoning of the rest of us, not everyone is making a great statement. in most cases its a very simple and worthy one
on a further note the money raised is well used and as far as i know non political.

The problem for me is that it commemorates ALL of Britains war dead not just the First World War that includes its war dead in Ireland and from its various colonial wars around the world.
Whilst you may not see the political conutation of that to most Irish people it is clear and that is why the vast majority of Irish people do not wear that symbol even though they may have had relatives that died in one or other war.

TCP/IP

I for one will be wearing a poppy with pride. For me it is a symbol of remembering people who cares weither they are Irish or english or any other amount of countries that had citizens who died in battle. It is about human sacrifise.